Final fantasy crystal bearers.

What a fantastic, criminally under rated adventure game.

Fantastic world design, fantastic exploration design, fantastic world interaction, fun combat.... And one of the worst vo's EVER.

Such a shame the large majority of gamz girnoliz were so damn stupid they couldnt figure out how the reaction system worked in relation to combat, and actually thought the only way to fight enemies was to throw rocks at them over and over and over again like morons instead of say, feeding those rocks to the large floating monster until it got too heavy to float and drowned, or shutting a giant robots visor before it fired its mega laser causing it to blow its head off....

Criminally under rated game. Probably be a great buy for 10 bucks and anyone wanting a good 20 hour adventure with tons of replay value beyond just running through the events until the end of the game while we wait for wii u's library to blossom.

Heh, I have both Golden Sun and yggdra union on my android. Also got GS on my wii u. The miiverse integration was enjoyable.

Enjoy Golden sun much more. The dialog is extremely verbose, but it and the story is just as solid as yggdra union. Which is nowhere near compelling enough to make the games worthwhile without some solid game to back them up.

Golden sun has an interesting combat system, fun flashy battle graphics, fantastic world design, fantastic exploration, fantastic rewards for exploring, and great town and dungeon design.

Yggdra union has an interesting combat system, No world design, no exploration, no towns, irritating but very necessary item management... And some REALLY questionable character designs. I like how they simulate each character as being in charge of a battallion, and having to manage morale.

And since I cant stomach any more of bravely defaults truly atrocious end game... now Im going back to my Xenoblade replay.

I really don't know where you're getting that Golden Sun's storyline is on par with Yggdra's. Granted, Yggdra Union's story isn't really anything to rave about (much less validate the entire game), but at least it's functional and consistent, which is way more than can be said about Golden Sun's filler&sidetracking story.

Golden suns story is perfectly functional and consistant in comparison to yggdra union. Its not like we are talking disc one of Xenogears or Xenoblade level story here. And the simple fact it actually has SOME manner of stage direction to go along with the dialog and events, makes it much better than portraits and text.
 
 
 
 
 
 

I disagree about the combat system. It's just too unbalanced and devoid of challenge to consider it interesting. Yggdra Union fluctuates a lot in terms of difficulty, but the game at least tries to push you into properly learning the system.

Opinon invalidated on basis of ignorance. Good luck spamming the same single element classes, summon spams and other junk you used for the cannon fodder on the secret bosses.... And seeing someone who thinks like that get an eye openeing smackdown in the battle mode is always amusing.

Ygdrra union doesnt have a particularly interesting battle system once the novelty wears off... ANd the game drags on for an eternity after that point. Its a shallow and pretty transparent finite state machine. The game in General is heavily outdone several times over by series like fire emblem, with the sole exception of the fairly interesting player 'interaction' and special move aspect.... I cant even really give props for the 'ganging up/linking' strategy... I feel fire emblem also does a much better job with this with its own take. It really just isnt interesting or varied enough to make up for the poor map design, and complete and absolute lack of player agency, and the hours upon hours it drags on.... ANd of course, Ive always had a distate for the card thing style. 

 
 
 
 
 

The dungeon design didn't really do anything for me. At first I thought it was great, but the game recycled the pushing puzzles so much that I lost all interest on it by the time I was done with the mercury lighthouse. Didn't really help that the game has a fetish for samey-looking caves, either. I do appreciate that they tried to do something besides just linear dungeons though, so that's something to praise about it.

I find it amusing that you complain about repitition and golden suns dungeons not having enough variety visually... Whilst comparing it to yggdra union. Which is a consistant, constant, and far greater offender in this category.

 

As for Yggdra Union lacking exploration... well, it's an srpg. No exploration is pretty standard for the genre, so I don't really think it's anything to hold against it. It sounds like you place a lot of value in exploration. It's not like I don't get why people like Golden Sun,

Fire Emblem has great exploration. To the effect of

A. Finding information leading to secret campaigns.
B. Finding and recruiting characters for your army
C. Finding Finding great weapons
D. Finding tactically advantadgous avenues of approach.

Its called ensuring the player is able to act upon their own agency.

People who enjoy Golden sun are very, very, VERY well aware of the series shortcomings. Which is why Golden sun 2 is such a huge deal, as its damn near perfection for the series, fixing every problem Golden sun had (Except the extremely verbose dialog), and improving and adding on a massive scale. And also why they find Golden sun 3 so dissapointing.
 

it's just that the opinion on this game is so one-sided that I feel compelled to point out its flaws.

Funny, your one sided opinion compelled me to do the same.

Mk8. Surprise.

All these old siggraph lectures and college guest speakers, recordings, etc I dug up, containing excerpts and interactions with designers like Blow and Rohrer made me go back and spend some more brutal time In The Castle Doctrine. (I was actually present in the conversation when he came up with the idea of allowing the wife to have a shotgun XD).

Apparantly ive still got it. I managed to Rob 7 people before I came home and found my own wife and family murdered, and my vault emptied, and committed suicide.

I'm not, I genuinely didn't notice that happening. Anyway, there's still a small possibility it's just the fact he was using gyro while facing the opposite direction of the screen. In other words, could be bad calibration and not framedrop. In fact I'm glad you mentioned the beacon, because the animation of it being placed seems to be running perfectly smoothly even when the screen is acting weird, which would indicate calibration, not a frame drop. And even if it is frame drop the game is probably like a year from being done, and a year in Nintendo dev time is a LOOONG way from being finished. Basically it's not a big deal.
 
I think it looked fine. i don't about you, but when i go walking through the forest, I don't even see as much wildlife as was in the video. And I have to wander if you've played MMORPG's before lol. Most of the ones I've played may have monsters and stuff in  between but not ones you can/want to bother yourself with, so most times you have pretty long amounts of time just traveling. And honestly, it can be really nice.

There was definately frame drops. Its not even worth thinking about though. This demo is already months behind the build of the actual game, and stuff like that will get hammered out in the final phase after the games feature complete. Well, in Nintendo games at least.

You can also expect a transitional texture layer and more to be put between things like the rock/hill and the ground in those really rough looking spots. Very common place things.

again, i was referring to how barren the video felt.  Commenting on if it exists in game isn't the same as showing me how full, or lacking, of life the game is.    In that sense, i hope there is much more than what was shown in the final build. 
 
On a side note, i did wonder why they didn't climb the tower/watchpost right by the cliff and jump from there, as it would give a better view of the area, there would also likely be a NPC near by there too though i doubt there is one in the build shown, or was removed.
 
If exploring is just going from point A to B and have relatively little in between, then ill be dissapointed. In that sense, traversal can quickly start to work against you.   I do count a pretty environment as relatively little in most cases.

Its probably because they didnt WANT you to see the npc's yet, and they didnt WANT you to see everything you can see from that tower. Probably also why the video was constantly and so heavily edited.

What is the point of complaining, when you already know the game is going to be teeming with detail like that? Its almost like its a nintendo title and they have ridiculous attention to detail to the tiniest things, and they already showed a video teeming with those exact things, like flocks of reacting birds, herds of reacting goats, and reactive farmers in village fields last e3.

Why do people constantly do this? Im not even talking about you anymore, just that its reminding me of dozens of truly boneheaded knee jerks ive already seen. Why do they do it, every single time, with every unfinished nintendo title?

Do they not get tired of constantly being wrong? Do they have no sense of pattern recognition? Or do they like it? Like doing it on purpose to be pleasently surprised?


I will never understand seeing the same people, making the same wrong impressions, and never learning, every single time.

Like neogaf, the same people, dozens of them, said the same things about an unfinished 3d world, said the same things about an unfinished mk8 with empty lifeless tracks, said the SAME THING with X, and are now saying, again, the same thing about Zelda.


Just... Why wont they factor these past experiences into their current judgement?

Zelda... was pretty cool. Want to watch again.

WIth how large that world is, I really hope they don't forget to implement a fast-travel system...

You can count on there being one.

Hmmm.... I think this might be a tweaked monolithsoft engine...

looks good, think the world may need some more content on while you travel. Besides that, looks great

I dont know about that. I dont mind travel times. Lend depth to the world,and contrast, weight to discovery. Like how rests and note lengths are used to create rythm in music, without them all you have is noise.

If you are constantly doing crap, constantly, everystep of the way, the impact of discovery is lessened, its just another thing to add to the pile of constant stimulation.


When I complain of empty overworlds, its not from a lack of constantly being bombarded by stimulus, but a lack of places to go, and things to do when I get there. Zelda Us landscape was LITTERED with land marks, interesting formations, and man made objects. There are lots of places to go, for someone like me, its almost overwhelming seeing them all with a glance, and almost painful not being in control, to run of and explore them... In the order I find most effecient.

As long as the travel times are designed well, to provide a sense of journey between destinations, I will be fine without being interrupted with forced 'content density' hand holding from scripted point to point chasing monkies, and bugs, and other immersion halting cutscene introduced junk i just feel is padding, accompanied with constant hey listens.

See something, find it, explore it. That is the fundamental thing that made Zelda, Zelda for me, and its been a very long time since any zelda game, even the ones I really liked, gave me that feeling like this one did.

I dont want a constant barrage of things to do every second of the game. I want a lot of places to go to. There will be things to find, explore, and do there.

Looks nothing like it but okay.

The scene composition is identical. You need your eyes checked.

I think after the TP reveal in 2004 people were looking at tree branches and analyzing them thinking it was some woods creature.

They thought that tree was a giant creature. People looked so far into it including the water as if it meant something special. Best part is this did not make it into the final game.

So much of what I was so excited for with tp didnt make it into the game...

Artsyle wise it doesn't, and just because we saw Link at the top of a large hill doesn't mean it's gonna be like that game
 
 
And it's beautiful, I just hope the world feels useful, this game HAS to have at least 20 dungeons to make use of that amazing over world.

Did I say art style? No, no I did not. I specifically said scene composition because that was what I was talking about, if I was talking about art style, I would have said art style. I am talking content, composition of a scene.

http://www.digitalca...-why-they-work/

http://www.quepublis...=23099&seqNum=5

http://www.cybercollege.com/tvp022.htm

Scene composition>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Art style, because content takes precedence over form.

and it is deliberately identical here.

I was referring to how barren the map feels, the majority of it has minimal wildlife roaming around.  i was not asking for something to pop out and attack me at every given moment, I just don't want the see the world as a partially improved wind waker when i'm traversing the map.  I know that may because its a early build/removed for the video.

Did you have the sound on? Miyamoto makes note of insect and animal life, and interactive fauna like picking and eating apples. Also, the herd of horses are not the only wild life in the video.

Honestly, when a massive elk on top of a cliff looking down watching you, is so horrible obscured by a combination of horrible video quality and tiny off screen syndrome, that 95% of people are blown away when a contrast adjusted pick with it circled shows up, I have little hope of wildlife like birds, butterflies squirrels etc showing through the footage provided.

For all we know there could be leprechauns sharting rainbows at each other in the grass and the trees, and wed never see them through that feed.

Loved the show. Really laughed at some parts.
Mario Maker is looking more appealing with SMB 3 World aesthetics. Those levels were pretty awesome!
 
Zelda was...wow. The game looks really good and i feel it's going to be really special! Mark my words!

Words marked.



This is what ive been waiting for, for so very long.

and why do you think that sir?

The way it handles streaming, extreme distance covering for the zoom handles like ms xeno engine, it has no restrictions for player camera positions, which is why the player can not only climb to so many high points to look around, but jump off and glide on a whim... Which means no super obvious/ cramped potato landscape design tricks to limit what the player can see (putting a set piece behind a mountain so the player cant see it, and forcing the player to go all the way areound said mountains, so it seems like they travelled far, when in reality, they are only 200 ft from where they started, but on the other side... (dragon age inq.))

And monolithsoft has helped on the past 3 or so zeldas.

The system is plenty capable. Sonic Lost World is 1080p 60fps http://mynintendonew...-runs-at-1080p/
Rayman was built for Wii U and ported to PS360. Batman Armored Edition is 1080P. ACIII does. ACIV I think does but the frame rate is lower. 900P on XBO
 
While not a conformation but Zelda U screens were in 1080P. MK8 screenshots were 720P. Also gotta remember Wii U is not built like a PC it's built like a console so over time it will be optimized more unlocking more potential and tapping more into it's power. XBO and PS4 have no secrets they are what they are/ XBO will have resolution gate til the end of it's life. Wii U will just get better.

The wii u can do 1080p easily. The problem is, using that fillrate to fill those extra pixels you have when going from 720p to 1080p takes away from the fillrate used for those effects that make the best looking wii u games look so good.

Thats why shin en dropped nano assault hd from 1080p to 720p with more effects.

With only 8 rops, the wii u will always have to choose.

Yeah, can't really tell if there is tessellation present or not unless you see it moving.

The environment shadows look great. So do the models (except the large racetrack enclosure... Not overly thrilled with that. Low poly and some old tricks used to flesh out geometry with texture maps pretending to be geometry. But a team that small putting out a game this fast that looks this amazing... Nor prob. Just being hyper critical. The reason it stands out so much is directly due to just how outstanding everything else looks. ) and textures.

But the shadow where the large track enclosure meets the "land" area is really old school. Would be nice to dial down the "photoshop drop shadow effect" there.

Now I'm excited to see the vehicle models.

So glad they chose a realistic art direction.

Not sure what you are seeing with the racetrack overhead, it is simple, but by design, its supposed to be a trapezoid, and Im not sure what you are seeing with the textures trying to emulate geometry, as it appears to be completely smooth slabs of concrete beams in the shape of a trapezoid. If it was trying to shave polies, it would do it on the perfectly round er... air conditioning units on the underside. Why is the track air conditioned? In the open desert? Does anyone know what else those units could be? Anyways, another reason I dont think this is a low poly shortcut is because in several instances down the track it switches from the trapezoid to a perfectly smooth half dome.

A good example of what I think you were talking about can be made note of with the trees in the background, especially the trees on the nearest rock, as they are close enough to see that they are, in fact, completely flat like billboards, but given the illusion of being full trees by very well done lighting and shading.

As for the photoshop drop shadow, if its what I think you are talling about, the strip on the left side of the track, thats actually not a shadow at all. From where the light source is (sun) overhead and on the left side, and seeing how the shadows of everything is casted from left to right, and rather long indicating time of day/angle) we can tell that the sun is rising (assuming the track is heading south, as it doesnt look like a setting scene) we can tell that there in fact, should be no cast shadow at all there, as that is the side and direction the sun is on and coming from.

So, what is it? Well, its an approximation on global illumination called ambient occlusion. As opposed to a shadow, which is cast by an object blocking light leaving a shadow in its shape, what we have here is the simulation of bouncing light not making it into that corner.

The majority of the light hits the ground, bounces off and up, and hits the concrete and reflects away, leaving a portion of the ground now without as much light.

*update* Megaphenix asked shin en about tesselation and got a response, good job phenix!

@ megafenix64 2d
@ShinenGames wow, the geometry looks
so real and shadows seem to respect the
bumpy areas of the silhouette,must likely
tessellation work
View details ·
Shin'en Multimedia
@ ShinenGames
1d
@megafenix64 @ShinenGames We used
a lot of 3D scanning. Great results but
hard to work with >1GB files for a single
mesh...


So it is indeed ibl, thanks for the confirmation phenix. Fantastic ibl results, the ibl looks really great.

oh it does, here

 

it loos pretty good to me, the terrain and the rocks have pretty good lod and judging by the geometry and the shadows seems they used tessellation with dispalcements here

 

No tesselation w/displacement maps. Thats just good lighting, shadow maps, ssao, and excellent ibl tricks

oh shiznet.

I appreciate the amazing graphics on display in that one screen. Very much so in fact.

But I'm also objectively critiquing as well. I can do the same with any game on any console.

Obviously the budget and time constraints here are so much more sever than say Bungie and Activision and the massive staff that worked on destiny (which won't be moving near as fast. Lol) And I have found some rare compromises there too.

But the graphical fidelity here is the winner. The racetrack is supposed to be trapezoid and I'm sure polygon budget came into play with that design decision. There are a lot of polygons already in the environment. Factor in the race vehicles and the. The sheer speed at which you'll be racing, and it's very much an achievement. And the polygons trying to be geometry aren't where you're looking.

They are specifically the piping and/ or support structures laid on invisible polygons as texture maps on the upper end of the structure.

But the shadow the meets the ground from the structure... I'm still hoping they rethink that. It is a shadow effect. Looks like an extra texture layer. And it beyond respecting the lighting, there are many issues with it. May just be wanting to actually ship the game now. But there is still time. Everything else is so perfect that's something like that is almost jarring.

Oh, I see what you are talking about now. I dont really put to much care into scrutinizing low-mid lod assets, beyond do they transition to the close lod smoothly. Its kind of like concentrating on mid-far mipmaps. Although I dont think they are trying to be textured to look round. They look like they are supposed to be flat, thin rectangular prisms. With the hdr image based lighting they are using, if they wanted them to look round with the texture, the texture would look round as hell, as far as the texture is concerned anyways. Its shaded as if it were a flat peice of metal, and while I agree using that technique with something thats supposed to be round, like pipes is an eye sore, using it on something thats already supposed to be flat... doesnt look that out of place. At least the mid lod, looking at the picture on my monitor now, the far lod used on the last 2 sections actually DOES look pretty out of place. So yeah, totally. Still Im more concerned with how the transition to the close lod 3d model will be jarring or not, as you will never see the game from this angle as you will be on the track.

If you are looking to run a critical eye on something, dont forget to also look at the nearest group of trees, they arent supposed to be flat like billboards.

As for the shading on the left hand side, nope not a shadow, thats 100% Screen Space Ambient Occlusion, and a damn fine job at it too. Probably the best example of showing what ssao does for corners in terrain that ive seen in a long time.

If only I could get an ssao off version it would easily replace this for obvious/easiest visualization of ssao.


As its still a complex scene in frneo, but the ssao is really obvious and well done. And well, any active global illumination technique is the exact opposite of 'old school shading', even an approximation like ssao, and especially when its this well done.

Don't need to read what I already know.

And that doesn't look like ambient occlusion to me. If it is, they are applying it much differently than say to the mountain/hill models where they meet the ground where the lighting is the same.



What is seen in that screen is not present in higher end games on any of the new consoles, but IS on phones and mobiles. If it is ambient occlusion, it is an overzealous implementation that ruins the reality simulation the effect is supposed to achieve.

I don't think this is ambient occlusion at work either. Not in the actual area I'm referring to.

This isn't the inside of the structure. It's the OUTSIDE. where there is no need for a darker appearance/shadow. Where lighting wouldn't affect it. Not angles or corner. Literally spread out over the texture for quite a ways. And in a manner that doesn't jibe with the lighting. Capice?

Look at where the other geometrical structures meet the ground where the lighting is the same. There is a proper realistic shading from AO. Not this, which doesn't feature anywhere else.

If it is AO, they are using different calculations in that area and its a poor implementation. Needs to be refined so as not to look "cheap" while the rest of the scene looks great.

Let's keep it real here.

 

 

Every. single. ps4/xbone game out currently uses ambient occlusion.

 

http://www.fxguide.c...se-son-of-rome/

 

For some reason, you think lighting should be calculated uniformily across an entire environment, this is primitive, wrong and backwards. That is local illumination. This is GLOBAL illumination, with the lighting data painstakingly scanned from an actual image/extremely high fidelity render SPECIFICALLY to ensure the environments lighting is NOT uniformily calculated, because real life is NOT uniformly lit. Welcome to image based lighting.

 

Those other structures WONT be suffering the same light occlusion for a number of different reasons.

 

1. The main light source is coming at them from a different angle, because they are in very different positions.

2. They are at a different angle relationship from to the ground, one that does not occlude light from entering nearly as much. While the concrete is sloped over the sand, and the sand is sloping down instead of level, creating a light occluding funnel.

3. The rocks you are talking about are similar colors to the sand, a light tan as opposed to a concrete grey, their ambient reflection will have little noticable effect, while the concretes ambient reflection will add more.

3. There are no other objects nearby the big rocks, while the concrete slab has tons of objects diffusing and occluding light before it ever makes it to the concrete.

4. The angle from those objects to the camera/eye is very different, as they are in very different places to each other.

 

You have a LOT of reading to do.

And its also going to have day/night cycles, AND DYNAMIC weather,

Nice strawman.

Not saying it's not there.

Saying that's not an example of it. I've even carefully explained exactly where I'm referring too...

But keep playing your little charade.

You specifically said that 'they must be calculating it differently there' as if not using uniform lighting was a negative. Look, just circle the area you are talking about, and comparing it too on a screenshot and post it up so we can be sure we are talking about the same thig. Although you may not care anymore because youll be too busy looking at this:

If you won't get into technical jargin then your thoughts are worthless when you been told by 3dude and others it can do 1080P just fine.
Seriously stop. Stop talking. Jesus are you the new Mahmood? Negative Nancy.

Hmmm....

I personally feel he did a pretty good job expressing himself with this line right here:

"The best looking graphics in Native 720p and gameplay at 60fps."

Which I feel covers the best graphical fidelity, with 60fps, would be generally @720p, leaving exceptions of simply outstanding examples of technical prowess.

Also, to me this leaves room for:

lowering graphical bells and whistles for increased resolution, like 1080.

Or lowering frame rate to 30fps for increased graphical fidelity/bells and whistles and resolution.

Or even lowering resolution for increased graphical bells and whistles and frame rate.


I see considering the wii u to be a machine, where your best graphical effects for at 60 frames per second, is generally at 720p as pretty reasonable. And anything that surpasses that, would be fantastic and very impressive.

I definately see it as more reasonable than his prior negative nancy days of 'well see if it can have any good graphics', perhaps seeing fast racing neo screens made him consider the console had some grunt behind it third parties really were missing.