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Shin'en Explains Wii U EDRAM Usage


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#101 Cloud Windfoot Omega

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:23 PM

Well, first, as I explained earlier, flops simply dont transfer linearly across architectures.

So even if it WAS 176 gflops, its not the same amount of power Xenon gets with 176 gflops.

Second. Simply no.

He dismisses Jim from Chipworks, who said he cant recognize the design coming from any other amd chips hes worked with (when asked about the 7xx base), because he made up a story where Jim is unable to identify the brand of the gpu (despite everybody already knowing the brand) Because it wasnt on the gpu, but the heatspreader.

Jim doesnt NEED to see a brand to recognize where a gpu came from. He didnt aquire his position of employment by being an incompetent buffoon, hes not a game journalist.

You simply cant tell that kind of detail by eye balling block shapes. Unless you can see the makeup of the arithmetic units inside, or have a chart, because you can give near any shape block of logic any purpose. You can even have the same exact logic block given a completely different shape simply to maximize the use of die area.

Identifying what logic needs to be by ram pools is a good idea in theory, but ultimately rather worthless in real world applications, as these custom layouts are often done by computers in parts to maximize effecient use of die space, and these are often simply put beyond a humans ability to follow. The reason They can be identified at all by their shapes from successor to successor (typically just die shrinks with minor changes( is merely because its cost effective to reuse a practical design.... In custom hardware it may no longer be practical to mantain the conventional layout, as there may be unconventional changes compared to your conventional designs. Such as a massive block of embedded ram.

And these guys love talking about flops, but they never specify what kind of flop, which is really important. This guy keeps talking about the number of 64 bit registers, but a flop is a 32 bit operation. A double precision flop is 64 bit. and Nintendo is known for wanting custom wierd things like cramming a pair of single precision flops into a single 64 bit register.

Observing him, he just doesnt seem to be trying to find an answer by looking at facts.

he seems to be trying to find facts he can use to support an answer he already came up with.


I dont know what exact number of flops the system is packing. It COULD be 176 Gflops. But, Id be willing to bet if it did, it wouldnt be for any of his reasoning. I feel like its comparable to someone telling us the sky is blue.... Because its made of paint. Except via a much smarter avenue of discourse

My team has not been issued a Wii U, our higher ups are kinda... unwilling currently (im not going to say more, but it would be bad publicity)

 

 

but I agree, I believe that starting in he wanted to just put out real information but along the way he got blinded by how the media, lesser game devs and those who just hate nintendo and the system have been acting. From me and my teams tech experts perspective, its possible to range everything in the wii u from the high 200's  all the way up to the late 600's. The possibility of it being lower to them is  laughable, when they and I have looked at the ports and how badly optimized most of them are for the system there would be near 0 possibility of playability if it was just a mere 176 gflop system.

 

But we honestly can only guess since anything can be hidden within that die, new technology is a distinct possibility. Not that anyone will want to admit that  Nintendo had put any of their own money into something new from AMD or that it could hang with the big boys with a bit of scaling...  because right now, no one cares about truth or even possibility the world hates what the Wii U is and they dont know why.



#102 GAMER1984

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 01:59 AM

My team has not been issued a Wii U, our higher ups are kinda... unwilling currently (im not going to say more, but it would be bad publicity)

 

 

but I agree, I believe that starting in he wanted to just put out real information but along the way he got blinded by how the media, lesser game devs and those who just hate nintendo and the system have been acting. From me and my teams tech experts perspective, its possible to range everything in the wii u from the high 200's  all the way up to the late 600's. The possibility of it being lower to them is  laughable, when they and I have looked at the ports and how badly optimized most of them are for the system there would be near 0 possibility of playability if it was just a mere 176 gflop system.

 

But we honestly can only guess since anything can be hidden within that die, new technology is a distinct possibility. Not that anyone will want to admit that  Nintendo had put any of their own money into something new from AMD or that it could hang with the big boys with a bit of scaling...  because right now, no one cares about truth or even possibility the world hates what the Wii U is and they dont know why.

 

 

question though couldnt it be 176 "BUT" a newer 176 than performs better than 176 should perform... does that make sense?



#103 Goodtwin

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:14 AM

question though couldnt it be 176 "BUT" a newer 176 than performs better than 176 should perform... does that make sense?

 

 

Yes, this has been my theory for a while now.  Even though the Wii U's GPU may only perform at 176Gflop max theoretical performance, and the PS3 and 360 are at about 250 Gflops, but those consoles were never able to really run at those theoretical maxes, and the Wii U may be able to do that.  Things like the large cpu cache, the fact that the GPU and CPU are both on a MCM, the large amount of edram on the GPU, and the fact that the latency to the main memory pool is so low that the Wii U's actual performance is quite a bit greater.  Not to mention things like having a built in tesselator that is apparently far more efficient than older GPU's, Shin'en mentioned that recently.  Another thing to keep in mind is that DX10 and DX11 arent just about doing better effects than DX9, but also doing the same effects as before, but require less resources.  Many of the effects from DX9 could be done in DX10.1 and DX11, but were about 30-40 percent quicker to perform.  Not to mention flop for flop, a DX 10.1 or DX11 gpu are going to give better more modern effects.  Its why a bargain GPU like the HD6450 will be able to create better looking graphics than an older HD3*** GPU with high Gflop specs.  The trick here is that the game must make use of the newer API.  So in the end the Wii U is likely capable of running the CPU, GPU, and memory all very close to its theoretical maximums, something that is not true with the other consoles.  On paper you would think that the 12.8GB/s bandwidth to the main memory would be a huge bottle neck, but not a single developer has complained about the memory.  The PS2 was more impressive on paper than the Gamecube, but real world game performance was very much in the Gamecube's favor.  We are never going to get Nintendo to release the specs, so we will have to judge the power of the system based on its games.     



#104 Cloud Windfoot Omega

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:28 AM

question though couldnt it be 176 "BUT" a newer 176 than performs better than 176 should perform... does that make sense?

it would have to perform more than 2 times  more efficiently, not accounting for  misusing, optimization and doing a dirty port. Which could make it have to be 3-6 times more efficient.

 

somehow i highly doubt it.



#105 Desert Punk

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 07:30 AM

Why is 176gflops being mentioned for the wii u gpu, I thought everyone practically had agreed the wii u gpu was twice that at 352 gflops.  Is there some interesting link that has new information regarding this?

 

I have to say reading this thread, there is so little realism here about the wii u. If your a lurker looking for wii u performance information you need to go elsewhere this is a completely biased thread with no realistic information.

 

It bears little relation to how the wii u performs in the real world and mentions none of the inherent weaknesses of the wii u design which is basically due to extreme cost cutting.

 

Clearly the EDRAM is just part of the whole picture of the wii u specification (a good part) but should be taken in relation to all other parts of the spec to give a full picture.

 

How many times does this thread mention the wii u is using a dated last century cpu in a three core configuration only running at 1.25ghz. Not many times as far as I can see.

 

How often is it mentioned its using a low cost fabrication process same as 360 and PS3 yet uses less power.

 

How often is the 12.8GB/s memory bandwidth discussed as a huge weakness which is slower than 360 and PS3.

 

A thread with extreme bias is worthless.

 

I know you shouldn't go to a Nintendo forum expecting unbiased views but some of the information here is so ridiculous.



#106 3Dude

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:34 AM

Why is 176gflops being mentioned for the wii u gpu, I thought everyone practically had agreed the wii u gpu was twice that at 352 gflops.  Is there some interesting link that has new information regarding this?
 
I have to say reading this thread, there is so little realism here about the wii u. If your a lurker looking for wii u performance information you need to go elsewhere this is a completely biased thread with no realistic information.
 
It bears little relation to how the wii u performs in the real world and mentions none of the inherent weaknesses of the wii u design which is basically due to extreme cost cutting.
 
Clearly the EDRAM is just part of the whole picture of the wii u specification (a good part) but should be taken in relation to all other parts of the spec to give a full picture.
 
How many times does this thread mention the wii u is using a dated last century cpu in a three core configuration only running at 1.25ghz. Not many times as far as I can see.
 
How often is it mentioned its using a low cost fabrication process same as 360 and PS3 yet uses less power.
 
How often is the 12.8GB/s memory bandwidth discussed as a huge weakness which is slower than 360 and PS3.
 
A thread with extreme bias is worthless.
 
I know you shouldn't go to a Nintendo forum expecting unbiased views but some of the information here is so ridiculous.


Whats ridiculous is time and time and time again, including this thread before you even posted, your erroneous arguments are shot dead and buried, and yet you keep bringing them back as if nobody remembered the last 20 times you tried your garbage.

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#107 Arkhandar

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 03:33 PM

Why is 176gflops being mentioned for the wii u gpu, I thought everyone practically had agreed the wii u gpu was twice that at 352 gflops.  Is there some interesting link that has new information regarding this?

 

I have to say reading this thread, there is so little realism here about the wii u. If your a lurker looking for wii u performance information you need to go elsewhere this is a completely biased thread with no realistic information.

 

It bears little relation to how the wii u performs in the real world and mentions none of the inherent weaknesses of the wii u design which is basically due to extreme cost cutting.

 

Clearly the EDRAM is just part of the whole picture of the wii u specification (a good part) but should be taken in relation to all other parts of the spec to give a full picture.

 

How many times does this thread mention the wii u is using a dated last century cpu in a three core configuration only running at 1.25ghz. Not many times as far as I can see.

 

How often is it mentioned its using a low cost fabrication process same as 360 and PS3 yet uses less power.

 

How often is the 12.8GB/s memory bandwidth discussed as a huge weakness which is slower than 360 and PS3.

 

A thread with extreme bias is worthless.

 

I know you shouldn't go to a Nintendo forum expecting unbiased views but some of the information here is so ridiculous.

 

I'll just leave this here.


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#108 3Dude

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 09:01 PM

I'll just leave this here.

Ha ha. That was a mistake.

1. Every single thing punk has brought up has been discussed at length.

2. Every 'argument' punk has had has been thouroghly debunked, to the point of being massacred and punk looking absolutely ridiculous for being caught red handed making up 'facts' and pulling ridiculous numbers out his butt, then when confronted with real facts I supply, typically by uploading official documentation pdf's as an attatchment to the post, he simply leaves the thread upon everyone looking at the official documentation and seeing how full of crap he is, to try and slink back another day. The really sad part is, he never takes the oppertunity to improve his sthick.

3. You just flew headfirst into bed with this joker. Whoops.

4. www.drivingitalia.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=63114

Project cars changelog #527

Wii u: Multithreaded shadow rendering. DX11 support for multi-threaded shadow rendering (via -DX11MT).

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You can both share it if you want.

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#109 Desert Punk

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 03:29 AM

Whats ridiculous is time and time and time again, including this thread before you even posted, your erroneous arguments are shot dead and buried, and yet you keep bringing them back as if nobody remembered the last 20 times you tried your garbage.

 

The fact you have support here by some equally demented fanboys is worthless. Your horrific bias should indicate to anyone your points are meaningless. As ever I implore anyone to get onto sites that do cross format comparisons of 360, PS3 and wii u and see the real world not read the ridiculous bias here. Everything the wii u has is being put to full use now, its cpu architecture is well documented, I mean christ its so old many reading this wouldn't even have been born when it was designed. The GPU is basically a low end AMD GPU with bolts on for wii compatibility and image compression (to send to gamepad). There is no secret sauce here, the wii u is what it is.

 

You can not defend the wii u with lies, upon lies about its potential performance. The wii u has many games with features ripped out, lower resolution, inferior frame rates, missing graphic details compared to 360 and PS3 and its just utterly ridiculous to pretend its competitive with ps4/xbox one when it is struggling to match current gen models most of the time.

 

People need to get a grip on reality. If the wii u is struggling to outperform or even match 360 and PS3 its not because there is a huge conspiracy or its complicated to develop for, its because that's how it actually performs. There is no complicated Cell processor in the wii u, the GPU does not need much in the way of the CPU assistance as it is a more modern design and the wii u has that 32MB of high speed video memory to give the GPU fast access to the full frame buffer plus other benefits. As consoles go it is super simple. This has already been widely reported all over the internet by many developers and publishers. Its a very simple console to develop for. It's also pointless to use small scale developers of games that do not push the hardware to any level as a source of how powerful the wii u is.

 

Clearly games that push any hardware to the max are going to be full 3D worlds with realistic graphics and textures, requiring AI, physics engine,  weather effects, explosions etc. So far the wii u has had Assassin's Creed 3, Call of Duty Black Ops 2, Resident Evil Revelations and all have failed to match 360 and PS3 on wii u. Not that there isn't a huge amount of games that don't push the hardware to the max that also underperform on wii u too.

 

We have the upcoming Call of Duty Ghosts and Watchdogs and its almost certain these will likely underperform on wii u compared to current gen or at  best match them. No doubt the old excuses about lazy developers, lazy ports or maybe some interesting conspiracy theories will be written to explain it. The wii u versions underperforming compared to 360 and PS3 will surprise no one except perhaps some of the people on this forum.



#110 3Dude

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 04:11 AM

The fact you have support here by some equally demented fanboys is worthless. Your horrific bias should indicate to anyone your points are meaningless. As ever I implore anyone to get onto sites that do cross format comparisons of 360, PS3 and wii u and see the real world not read the ridiculous bias here. Everything the wii u has is being put to full use now, its cpu architecture is well documented, I mean christ its so old many reading this wouldn't even have been born when it was designed. The GPU is basically a low end AMD GPU with bolts on for wii compatibility and image compression (to send to gamepad). There is no secret sauce here, the wii u is what it is.
 
You can not defend the wii u with lies, upon lies about its potential performance. The wii u has many games with features ripped out, lower resolution, inferior frame rates, missing graphic details compared to 360 and PS3 and its just utterly ridiculous to pretend its competitive with ps4/xbox one when it is struggling to match current gen models most of the time.
 
People need to get a grip on reality. If the wii u is struggling to outperform or even match 360 and PS3 its not because there is a huge conspiracy or its complicated to develop for, its because that's how it actually performs. There is no complicated Cell processor in the wii u, the GPU does not need much in the way of the CPU assistance as it is a more modern design and the wii u has that 32MB of high speed video memory to give the GPU fast access to the full frame buffer plus other benefits. As consoles go it is super simple. This has already been widely reported all over the internet by many developers and publishers. Its a very simple console to develop for. It's also pointless to use small scale developers of games that do not push the hardware to any level as a source of how powerful the wii u is.
 
Clearly games that push any hardware to the max are going to be full 3D worlds with realistic graphics and textures, requiring AI, physics engine,  weather effects, explosions etc. So far the wii u has had Assassin's Creed 3, Call of Duty Black Ops 2, Resident Evil Revelations and all have failed to match 360 and PS3 on wii u. Not that there isn't a huge amount of games that don't push the hardware to the max that also underperform on wii u too.
 
We have the upcoming Call of Duty Ghosts and Watchdogs and its almost certain these will likely underperform on wii u compared to current gen or at  best match them. No doubt the old excuses about lazy developers, lazy ports or maybe some interesting conspiracy theories will be written to explain it. The wii u versions underperforming compared to 360 and PS3 will surprise no one except perhaps some of the people on this forum.


1. Shin'en is Abyss you moron.

2. All you have named are PORTS. Most of which have been found to only be using 1 cpu core. Why cant the ps3 run silent hill 2 and 3 as well as the ps2? Must be because its just not that powerful compared to ps2. No one is surprised about ports handled by a 20 man team sucking except you. Your logic is stupid and broken. And no, I KNOW your logic isnt REALLY that you honestly think ports handled by a skeleton crew with no platform experience are any kind of practical measure. Pretty much everyone knows. No one who actually knows anything, or has been around for more than one generation thinks ports are a worthwhile measuring stick. You are just counting on them to continue your trolling. Thats not going to work once people get their hands on games like pikmin 3 and see with their own eyes.

zlCfzRDVwv8r15fEuZ_zps4408c2e5.jpg

They are going to realize that the crappy ports, were just that. Crappy ports.

In fact, not only is all you have brought up are ports, but you avoid anything thats not a port like its the plauge.

3. You have some accountability you need to take responsibility for. You arent weaseling out of this one.

DX11 features are up and running on wii u. This is the first, in a long line of your bs that you thought would be too obsfucated to ever have to worry about being proven.

Your time is running out.

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#111 Arkhandar

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 04:18 AM

3. You just flew headfirst into bed with this joker. Whoops.

4. www.drivingitalia.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=63114

Project cars changelog #527

Wii u: Multithreaded shadow rendering. DX11 support for multi-threaded shadow rendering (via -DX11MT).

5. crow.gif

You can both share it if you want.

 

 

Someone must have gotten up on the wrong side of the cage this morning.


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#112 3Dude

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 04:29 AM


 
Someone must have gotten up on the wrong side of the cage this morning.


You cant say you didnt earn it. Youve been ragging on this a looooooooong time. Despie all logic, reason, and evidence, until it finally became indisputable.

At least you wont pretend this didnt happen, and come back in later threads to continue posting about how wii u cant support anything dx11.

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#113 Waller

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 04:48 AM

The fact you have support here by some equally demented fanboys is worthless. Your horrific bias should indicate to anyone your points are meaningless. As ever I implore anyone to get onto sites that do cross format comparisons of 360, PS3 and wii u and see the real world not read the ridiculous bias here. Everything the wii u has is being put to full use now, its cpu architecture is well documented, I mean christ its so old many reading this wouldn't even have been born when it was designed. The GPU is basically a low end AMD GPU with bolts on for wii compatibility and image compression (to send to gamepad). There is no secret sauce here, the wii u is what it is.

 

You can not defend the wii u with lies, upon lies about its potential performance. The wii u has many games with features ripped out, lower resolution, inferior frame rates, missing graphic details compared to 360 and PS3 and its just utterly ridiculous to pretend its competitive with ps4/xbox one when it is struggling to match current gen models most of the time.

 

People need to get a grip on reality. If the wii u is struggling to outperform or even match 360 and PS3 its not because there is a huge conspiracy or its complicated to develop for, its because that's how it actually performs. There is no complicated Cell processor in the wii u, the GPU does not need much in the way of the CPU assistance as it is a more modern design and the wii u has that 32MB of high speed video memory to give the GPU fast access to the full frame buffer plus other benefits. As consoles go it is super simple. This has already been widely reported all over the internet by many developers and publishers. Its a very simple console to develop for. It's also pointless to use small scale developers of games that do not push the hardware to any level as a source of how powerful the wii u is.

 

Clearly games that push any hardware to the max are going to be full 3D worlds with realistic graphics and textures, requiring AI, physics engine,  weather effects, explosions etc. So far the wii u has had Assassin's Creed 3, Call of Duty Black Ops 2, Resident Evil Revelations and all have failed to match 360 and PS3 on wii u. Not that there isn't a huge amount of games that don't push the hardware to the max that also underperform on wii u too.

 

We have the upcoming Call of Duty Ghosts and Watchdogs and its almost certain these will likely underperform on wii u compared to current gen or at  best match them. No doubt the old excuses about lazy developers, lazy ports or maybe some interesting conspiracy theories will be written to explain it. The wii u versions underperforming compared to 360 and PS3 will surprise no one except perhaps some of the people on this forum.

 

Sooo... Do you have any argument besides "I'M THE ONLY SMART PERSON, EVERYONE ELSE IS A STUPID FANBOY"?

 

Lol, Resident Evil Revelations. That game is a 3DS port, are you saying the 3DS is stronger than the Wii U?


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#114 Arkhandar

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 06:28 AM

You cant say you didnt earn it. Youve been ragging on this a looooooooong time. Despie all logic, reason, and evidence, until it finally became indisputable.

At least you wont pretend this didnt happen, and come back in later threads to continue posting about how wii u cant support anything dx11.

 

It's called a discussion, not ragging. In case you don't know, discussions often lead to the truth, which is exactly the case.


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#115 Scumbag

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 07:01 AM

I think we can assume Punk is nothing but butthurt. She doesn't own a Wii U, she doesn't support Wii U. Good for her.
 
Wii U is 2-3x more powerful than the ancient 360. That we know by specs alone, other hidden strengths in the CPU/GPU, Sram + eDram usage is a mystery for now. At least developers are giving us examples of what is possible.

#116 Alex Atkin UK

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 02:30 PM

I still don't get why anyone would be stupid enough to think you can compare games that have engines which have been written specifically with the PS360 architecture in mind, with 7 years or so experience by those developers.  Then there is the Wii U that is completely different to any other platform architecturally and so those engines aren't close to designed around its strengths.  They are effectively being hacked to function to the bare minimum necessary to release the games.

 

Its already been mentioned Shin'en were finding new ways of optimising their engine as they went along, but didn't actually bother to do it as they didn't need to. 

 

A third-party porting team aren't going to have that knowledge, they are rushing to get the code running "good enough" for a deadline.  They don't have the time to go into that kind of detail.

 

“The Wii U GPU is several generations ahead of the current gen. It allows many things that were not possible on consoles before. If you develop for Wii U you have to take advantage of these possibilities, otherwise your performance is of course limited. Also your engine layout needs to be different. You need to take advantage of the large shared memory of the Wii U, the huge and very fast EDRAM section and the big CPU caches in the cores. Especially the workings of the CPU caches are very important to master. Otherwise you can lose a magnitude of power for cache relevant parts of your code. In the end the Wii U specs fit perfectly together and make a very efficient console when used right.”

 

Lazy ports are doing none of the above, because its not worth it unless the sales will be high enough on that platform to offset the cost of optimisation.

 

Wii U ports may improve if engine developers take that platform into account as they tweak the engines for next-gen, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

Still, the fact that crappy ports run as well as they do with so little TLC suggests the Wii U is considerably above current-gen specifications.  Its no PS4/XB1, but its not awful either.


Edited by Alex Atkin UK, 04 August 2013 - 02:34 PM.

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How to improve the Wii U download speed.


#117 Grooseland

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 07:52 AM

Oh wow...



#118 Goodtwin

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 09:14 AM

Some of the things that Punk says have some credibility, but then other things just seem like anti Nintendo propaganda.  For example, I would agree that the Wii U is in no way on par with the PS4 and X1, but the notion that the Wii U cant be somewhere in the middle because of some under performing ports is equally ignorant.  For example, Far Cry was ported to the Wii and looked like this

 

far-cry-vengeance-20060921083023893-1677

 

vs

 

4b57l.jpg

 

Both are ports to the Wii console, but one was a total cash in that was in no way showcasing what the hardware could do, and then we have a higher level 360/PS3 game ported to Wii with Modern Warfare 3 that held up surprisingly well.  This is the same hardware, and yet we are worlds apart on how good these games look.  I could have gone a step farther and showed Goldeneye for Wii vs Far Cry which is an even larger difference.  Publishers cashing in with cheap ports isnt something new, but lets not pretend that these games show what the hardware can do.  

 

The Wii U is handling many of the ports better than the PS3 did, and this was on crappy development kits with small mediocre dev teams.  Do I see the Wii U as being leaps and bounds more powerful than the 360 and PS3?  No I dont, but I do think that the Wii U is at the very least a modest jump over the 360/PS3 and is capable of using DX10.1/DX11 level effects.  Even with the same flops performance, the Wii U will be able to use better more efficient effects, giving them more bang for the buck.  Treyarch is handling the port of COD Ghost to Wii U and now that they have better development tools, I will be interested to see how it turns out.  

 

The Wii U may not be hard to develop for, but that doesnt mean a game engine optimized for the 360 is going to run as well as a game engine optimized for the Wii U.  360 has been the lead platform for years now.  Optimizations that were hugely beneficial to the 360 may actually hurt performance on the Wii U.  With DX10.1 and DX11, it wasnt just about better looking shaders, but being able to get the same effect done with about 35% less performance hit.  The Wii U is less than a year old and its already showing better looking games than the PS3 and 360 have been able to showcase after years of optimizations. 


Edited by Goodtwin, 05 August 2013 - 11:22 AM.


#119 Grooseland

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 09:19 AM

Some of the things that Punk says have some credibility

 

Really?

 

Like what






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