66 replies to this topic

[xile6]

There are only two ganes that can be used as a proper comparison when compared to PS4/Xbox 1: Infamous Second Son and Witcher 3. They are both extremely detailed and large open world games that claim to not have loading times in the world.

How about watch dogs?

I really dont see how people being stupid has any effect on X blowing the games they brought up out of the water in its alpha/beta state.

Bringing up games that have character polycounts in line with game cube games doesnt show that X looks worse, it shows that they are morons who have useless opinions clearly not based on logic. Here is logic.

http://beyond3d.com/...ead.php?t=43975

Metroid prime 2 Echoes Gamecube
Samus (light suit) - 10K with lightbeam cannon

Red Dead Redemption Xbox360
John Marston - 14,980
John Marston (Deadly Assassin) - 13,362


Metroid Prime 3: Corruption Wii
Samus - 18,962

So, why does a 360 games main character barely edge out a gamecube game but get smoked by a wii game? Its obviously not because the wii is more powerful, its because rdr is an open world game. As an open world game it has a lot of resource overhead and is budgeted to spend less resources on individual assets like characters, in order to spend them on things like, well, open worlds. Which is why they have last gen polycounts.

So, Im going to ignore the people who dont understand the games they are blindly biased towards have gc/wii level character models, who are uselessly stupid.... And now focus on others always found on the same topic who brilliantly compare them to closed world games lik gow... who are usefully stupid.

Saying that a massive open world game the scale of X 'isnt that much/ any better than a high end ps360 game/god of war/typical closed world camera restricted game' IS, inadvertantly, accidentally, idiotically, admitting its well enough beyond the ps360's capabilities.... Which are forced to use cube/wii level character/asset polycounts for models in their open world games.

Devs.

 

Some are better at coding then others making there games look better.

 

It's not always how powerful something is but it's how you put it to work.

[GAMER1984]

How about watch dogs?

Devs.

 

Some are better at coding then others making there games look better.

 

It's not always how powerful something is but it's how you put it to work.

 

Yeah thats true for every console in history except the Wii U.... all the hardware

[TheUltimateWaddleDee]

How about watch dogs?


Devs.

Some are better at coding then others making there games look better.

It's not always how powerful something is but it's how you put it to work.

It could be used, but I was mainly focusing on games that were designed for next-gen in mind.

[3Dude]

How about watch dogs?


Devs.
 
Some are better at coding then others making there games look better.
 
It's not always how powerful something is but it's how you put it to work.

That doesnt really apply to this situation.

No matter how talented you are, you arent going to be able to make an open world game that looks as good as a closed world game.


Its a simple matter of economics, you only have finite resources, if you only have 10 apples to build a world, using them all on a single room is going to yield far more detail than using them to create an entire world.

[TheUltimateWaddleDee]

That doesnt really apply to this situation.

No matter how talented you are, you arent going to be able to make an open world game that looks as good as a closed world game.

Or are you referring to the developer talent, in which case I don't see how that applies.


Its a simple matter of economics, you only have finite resources, if you only have 10 apples to build a world, using them all on a single room is going to yield far more detail than using them to create an entire world.

Watch Dogs is an open-world game though. Not as much as X or Witcher 3, but it's open-world regardless.

Edited by TheUltimateWaddleDee, 28 December 2013 - 07:04 PM.

[xile6]

That doesnt really apply to this situation.

No matter how talented you are, you arent going to be able to make an open world game that looks as good as a closed world game.


Its a simple matter of economics, you only have finite resources, if you only have 10 apples to build a world, using them all on a single room is going to yield far more detail than using them to create an entire world.

Understandable but still you give to people the same thing and they can turn out different stuff.

 Some make make the floor more detail then the  walls which are seeen more.

[GAMER1984]

Understandable but still you give to people the same thing and they can turn out different stuff.

 Some make make the floor more detail then the  walls which are seeen more.

 

I understand what you are saying. Take factor 5 back in gamecube launch they created something in 9 months at LAUNCH that wasnt outdone for the rest of the gen by ANYONE on ANY of the 6th Generation consoles.

[Raiden]

I dunno while Rogue Squadron looks amazing I think it's  a toss up with Starfox Adventures. When that game came out it felt almost pixar like.

[Socalmuscle]

Even the new wii u engines used by Nintendo teams are under par. Except what appears to be Mario kart. And Retro's dk engine looks pretty sweet.

Having had extensive time with ryse on the xbox one (a game widely viewed to have the best graphics in any available game thus far), it's clear that even the supposed powerhouse consoles are not impressing with even their big budget, showcase games.

Mario 3d world looks great. Next gen. Mario kart looks unbelievable. Donkey kong looks great as well. Really crisp and bright for a game with so much going on. Character models are superb. Environments are amazing as well for a 2.5d game with some full 3d elements.

But these are genres that aren't necessarily noticed by the masses for their graphics, no matter how beautiful.

X was looking great half a year ago. And has likely improved leaps and bounds since then. That may show something.

It may take a metroid or Zelda title to make the world stand up and take notice.

The only problem with this is that Nintendo tends to make a lot of compromises with graphics - even in third party games.

The best graphics on n64 weren't seen by Nintendo. It was Akklaim and factor five doing the wow stuff rare did a decent job as wel.

The GameCube saw factor five once again be the big graphics guys, with nintendo/Retro picking up steam. The wii saw... Uh... So onto the wii u.

Nintendo seems to realize that graphics are important now, even though they keep a stiff upper lip vs. competition and try to downplay it. That's why Mario kart looks mind knowingly good. Esp for a kart game.

It's why dk characters look like toy story depictions.

Nintendo is changing their ways in terms of graphics priority for the better. But there are still some inconsistencies. Smash brothers, for example, is going to be a blast. But... The graphics are not what they should be. Some of it is design choice (ie: if donkey kings fur patterns really but be related symmetrically right/left, they should do something to make it seems not so obvious. It's so bad, it reminds of the 16 bit, repeated textures that ended up creating up intended pictures where patterns connected. And the poly count on some characters is pretty good (ie:megaman) while others (ie: mccloud) are pretty low. Texturing seems somewhat below par as does lighting and environment geometry.

Seems like some old tech made it into this one. I'm sure it's a new engine. But not all new assets, etc.

The Sochi Olympics game is likewise more along the lines of smash brothers graphics than Mario kart, but that can be forgiven for now.

Nintendo, despite having some wii u time under its belt, is still somewhat in transition. Once these games are out, that time is over. There are years ahead to enjoy the wii us potential.

I don't expect wii u to completely blow everyone away, but I do expect it to come close to that with a a few well treated titles.

Meanwhile, it's competition will also be growing in quality.

Everyone seems off to a rough start this gen. Kill zone represents perhaps the best looking ps4 game, ryse on x1. Probably Mario on wii u. And it's obvious the ps4/x1 are just getting out of the gate (though the devs have much easier time understanding the hardware than say the Wii u, thus allowing for better looking games right off the bat).

As far as wii u though, we are seeing the beginnings of its capabilities. Mario 3d world is a great next gen effort. Mario kart is definitely an indicator of what to expect. And dk is very telling as well. X will be interesting to see how it turns out as well. And if we get to see a metroid or Zelda before 2015, I expect they will have applied some great things to those game engines as well.

Also... Looking forward to seeing shin'en's treatment of fast racing on wii u.

[GAMER1984]

Even the new wii u engines used by Nintendo teams are under par. Except what appears to be Mario kart. And Retro's dk engine looks pretty sweet.

Having had extensive time with ryse on the xbox one (a game widely viewed to have the best graphics in any available game thus far), it's clear that even the supposed powerhouse consoles are not impressing with even their big budget, showcase games.

Mario 3d world looks great. Next gen. Mario kart looks unbelievable. Donkey kong looks great as well. Really crisp and bright for a game with so much going on. Character models are superb. Environments are amazing as well for a 2.5d game with some full 3d elements.

But these are genres that aren't necessarily noticed by the masses for their graphics, no matter how beautiful.

X was looking great half a year ago. And has likely improved leaps and bounds since then. That may show something.

It may take a metroid or Zelda title to make the world stand up and take notice.

The only problem with this is that Nintendo tends to make a lot of compromises with graphics - even in third party games.

The best graphics on n64 weren't seen by Nintendo. It was Akklaim and factor five doing the wow stuff rare did a decent job as wel.

The GameCube saw factor five once again be the big graphics guys, with nintendo/Retro picking up steam. The wii saw... Uh... So onto the wii u.

Nintendo seems to realize that graphics are important now, even though they keep a stiff upper lip vs. competition and try to downplay it. That's why Mario kart looks mind knowingly good. Esp for a kart game.

It's why dk characters look like toy story depictions.

Nintendo is changing their ways in terms of graphics priority for the better. But there are still some inconsistencies. Smash brothers, for example, is going to be a blast. But... The graphics are not what they should be. Some of it is design choice (ie: if donkey kings fur patterns really but be related symmetrically right/left, they should do something to make it seems not so obvious. It's so bad, it reminds of the 16 bit, repeated textures that ended up creating up intended pictures where patterns connected. And the poly count on some characters is pretty good (ie:megaman) while others (ie: mccloud) are pretty low. Texturing seems somewhat below par as does lighting and environment geometry.

Seems like some old tech made it into this one. I'm sure it's a new engine. But not all new assets, etc.

The Sochi Olympics game is likewise more along the lines of smash brothers graphics than Mario kart, but that can be forgiven for now.

Nintendo, despite having some wii u time under its belt, is still somewhat in transition. Once these games are out, that time is over. There are years ahead to enjoy the wii us potential.

I don't expect wii u to completely blow everyone away, but I do expect it to come close to that with a a few well treated titles.

Meanwhile, it's competition will also be growing in quality.

Everyone seems off to a rough start this gen. Kill zone represents perhaps the best looking ps4 game, ryse on x1. Probably Mario on wii u. And it's obvious the ps4/x1 are just getting out of the gate (though the devs have much easier time understanding the hardware than say the Wii u, thus allowing for better looking games right off the bat).

As far as wii u though, we are seeing the beginnings of its capabilities. Mario 3d world is a great next gen effort. Mario kart is definitely an indicator of what to expect. And dk is very telling as well. X will be interesting to see how it turns out as well. And if we get to see a metroid or Zelda before 2015, I expect they will have applied some great things to those game engines as well.

Also... Looking forward to seeing shin'en's treatment of fast racing on wii u.

 

I agree we have to wait and see some of the titles. MK looks amazing. I think the thing that holds Nintendo back( not really their fault well kinda) they dont have a game that competes with xb1/ps4. Like most people brush their games off because they say they dont push the limit. Big hugh detailed worlds, lots of enemies, high detailed textures..... Nintendo does gameplay forst which i commend but they need to make sure they have some graphical hitters so as Iwata put it "people wont think the Wii U is underpowered"... which he doesnt understand why they think that. HA!

[Poptartboy]

I agree we have to wait and see some of the titles. MK looks amazing. I think the thing that holds Nintendo back( not really their fault well kinda) they dont have a game that competes with xb1/ps4. Like most people brush their games off because they say they dont push the limit. Big hugh detailed worlds, lots of enemies, high detailed textures..... Nintendo does gameplay forst which i commend but they need to make sure they have some graphical hitters so as Iwata put it "people wont think the Wii U is underpowered"... which he doesnt understand why they think that. HA!

You say you don't really care about graphics but you go on about them all the time. I think they matter a lot more to you than you think.

[alan123]

We will see it a lot sooner than that on the Wii U. Mario 3D World, Bayonetta 2 and Mariokart 8 are just the tip of the iceberg.

Mario 3D World & MK 8 next-gen, really ?

 

Yeah maybe the tip of the iceberg, a very small iceberg though.

[3Dude]

Watch Dogs is an open-world game though. Not as much as X or Witcher 3, but it's open-world regardless.

Watchdogs will inevitably only be a few square miles. The team already said they cant/dont want to replicate the entire city 1:1, so we know its being scaled down, probably by a factor of 10. We are probably looking at around 20 something square miles.... Which explains why you can drive frome one side of the map to the other in 10 minutes. Something that cant be done in the real 220 square miles of chicago.

That gets dwarfed by xenoblade, and will be microscopic compared to X. On top of that, the games REALLY not looking so hot any more... When the lead technical designer leaves in the middle of the production to join an indie team making a 3ds game, that should raise some eye brows, when the game looks like a bad joke compared to its unveiling, that should raise a flag.

The more I see of wd, the less i want of it, on any system.

[Grooseland]

The wii saw... Uh... So onto the wii u.

Aren't you forgetting Climax (Silent Hill) or High Voltage (The Conduit)?

 

Silent Hill is the best looking third party game on Wii imo. It has better effects than anything I've seen on Gamecube.

 

3dude:

 

What number of effects does Silent Hill uses? Does it use the TEV to its fullest?

[Raiden]

Wii had some impressive looking games for the hardware. Metroid Other M/Prime 3,Mario Galaxy,DKCR,Fragile Dreams,Pandoras Tower,Xenoblade,The Last Story,Madworld,de blob,Muramasa,Zak & Wiki,Klonoa,A Boy and his blob,Tatsunoko vs Capcom,Sonic Colors,Endless ocean,Kirby Epic yarn,Sin & Punishment,Rayman Origins,Ar Rise Fantasia,Little Kings Story,Earth Seeker,Silent Hill and more.

 

So not sure what Socal means

[3Dude]

Aren't you forgetting Climax (Silent Hill) or High Voltage (The Conduit)?
 
Silent Hill is the best looking third party game on Wii imo. It has better effects than anything I've seen on Gamecube.
 
3dude:
 
What number of effects does Silent Hill uses? Does it use the TEV to its fullest?

Aren't you forgetting Climax (Silent Hill) or High Voltage (The Conduit)?
 
Silent Hill is the best looking third party game on Wii imo. It has better effects than anything I've seen on Gamecube.
 
3dude:
 
What number of effects does Silent Hill uses? Does it use the TEV to its fullest?

I dont know if it used all 16 stages, but it made damn good use of both hollywood and broadway. Best silent hill since 3 to boot. They actually understood what silent hill was, so they were able to change things up without relying on shallow visual tropes like everyone else since. Really showed how many 'fans' knew nothing about the series as well. Turns out it was all the obnoxious stupid ones...

The psp/ps2 versionwas so visually downgraded the game was actually broken...

So, the characters and environments were wonderfully done, that geometry crunching is definately broadway, and the layers upon layersbof textures used for characters makes this the only other entry in the series to approach the wonderwork of sh3's cutscene lod character models, The texturing was wonderful, even up close and zoomed in even the tiniest notes were clean and readable. They were heavily layered too, and then layered on top of that for ice effects. Thats hollywood. A lot of lighting was done, not talking about the flashlight here, but general lighting set to infinity and a direction. think unmoving area lighting like the red or purple lights. Thats hollywood too.

The real time ice transparancy/reflection/refraction is a signature hollywood/flipper effect, probably one of the best ive seen on the system, excellent embm tev work. The cell phone camera is another pass used, excellent portal work,and a tiny little framebuffer too. The lag effect was probably not an effect, but conveniently the actual update rate. Self shadowing of monsters for environment lighting was probably another pass on the gpu.

The point light, ie flashlight was probably handled by broadway, as well as the awesome transformation sequences, the snow particle system, as well as the point lights created shadows, including the snow particles.

Definately one of the most technically advanced wii games. And best wii games, and one of the best sh's around. Its right next to sh2 for me.

if its 3rd party wii games to impress you are looking for, take a look at their work on overworld as well.

And f you want something really weird, take a look at little kings story's ai (wii version only, the vita remake... does not have the emergant ai)

I am constantly bewildered by what these villagers you create will do with their spare time, the emergent behaviors that surface around the handful of scripted rules (characters do their jobs, miners go to rocks and mine, loggers go log... and when they run into others they interact... the more they interact, the more they start pathfinding their ways to the characters they like to say, have picnics, and run ito other things on the way, where the rules and hueristics combine to emerge to create bizaare events, like a massive picnic that turns into a hippie beating mob)...and some manner of hueristic system are some of the best ive ever seen on ANY hardware... And often hilarious.

[Grooseland]

wow, thanks for your response. I also own Overlord and it has real time shadows on almost everything. The framerate though...  I have to give little kings story a try!

[GAMER1984]

You say you don't really care about graphics but you go on about them all the time. I think they matter a lot more to you than you think.

No what matters to me is performance. Graphics is part of the equation. If I know the console is capable of more and the CEO of the company says I don't understand why people think our console is underpowered... Then do something about it. Gameplay is awesome but don't get so boxed in you can't show what the console can do from a graphics standpoint. This is their first HD console sont and microsoft has been there done that... Nintendo is the one that needs to show what their developers can do with "HD graphics". Nintendo never makes bad game as for as gameplay so why should I worry about that.

[theizzzeee]

Mario 3D World & MK 8 next-gen, really ?

Yeah maybe the tip of the iceberg, a very small iceberg though.

If, you don't think those are great looking games then you just don't have any respect for non-photorealistic looking games.  That or you need binoculars for the games and the iceberg.

[GAMER1984]

If, you don't think those are great looking games then you just don't have any respect for non-photorealistic looking games. That or you need binoculars for the games and the iceberg.

 

and that is the most obvious problem Nintendo has. Their software lineup is filled with more cartoon/colorful artstyle rather than realistic. So it is easier for Naysayers to say 3dworld can be done on 7th gen and nothing is special about it. IMO "X" coming in 2014 has really big standards to live up to it is set in a realistic worlds and characters so people are gonna judge that more hardly.