32 replies to this topic

[Gamejunkie]

Sony has already officially stated that second hand games will nt be locked out. Its very likely that Microsoft will follow suit as it wouldn't be in their interest to be the only of the three console manufacturers to enable it.

[Reaver]

They could still charge a fee to unlock a second hand copy, with that and the price you paid for the used game, it could bring it up to the price of a brand new one, effectively killing the used game market. They want the second hand game market gone but had to backtrack on their announcement of locking out second hand games after seeing the uproar it created. They seem to have convinced some people but I'm quite confident they will screw it over in some way.

[Gamejunkie]

They could still charge a fee to unlock a second hand copy, with that and the price you paid for the used game, it could bring it up to the price of a brand new one, effectively killing the used game market. They want the second hand game market gone but had to backtrack on their announcement of locking out second hand games after seeing the uproar it created. They seem to have convinced some people but I'm quite confident they will screw it over in some way.

I highly doubt they will do that when they have already stated officially they are not going to prevent second hand games from being played on the console. Even of they do you and others make it sound like they are screwing over the consumers. What about all the developers who get less money because less new copies are sold due to the second hand market. This is one of the reasons why develpers get laid off and development houses close down. You obviously don't care about the people who actually make the games.

[Reaver]

Yes, they say they are not going to prevent it but they do not want second hand games around so they could still charge you to activate a used copy. If it's cheap, it won't be a problem but I don't think it will be if that is the route they are going to take. I hope they don't but time will tell.

 

 Also, It's not a matter of caring about the developers, it's more about being told what I can and can't do with something I've purchased. If I buy a crap game, the developers have already had my money and I'm stuck with a crap game that I'll never play and can't do anything with, Colonial Marines springs to mind. I had it for a day before I traded it in against another brand new game so because I could trade, another developer got my money who deserved it.

 

 On another note, I help run a computer game business and we don't stock new titles very often, unless preorderd, due to how expensive they are to buy at trade prices. Believe it or not, it is more cheaper for us to buy stock from online retailers than it is from trade suppliers. To top it off, the price of brand new retail games drops within a couple of weeks, the majority of the time, so werre stuck with stock we've paid full whack for so there is no incentive for us to pay full price on release. If a game can drop around 50% from RRP within a few weeks, why don't they charge less for it to begin with?

 

 We deal with used games as well as new releases if they are big titles and the majority trade in their used games towards new titles so I can't see why they hate the second hand market so much, they still get their money on release day.

[Gamejunkie]

Yes, they say they are not going to prevent it but they do not want second hand games around so they could still charge you to activate a used copy. If it's cheap, it won't be a problem but I don't think it will be if that is the route they are going to take. I hope they don't but time will tell.
 
 Also, It's not a matter of caring about the developers, it's more about being told what I can and can't do with something I've purchased. If I buy a crap game, the developers have already had my money and I'm stuck with a crap game that I'll never play and can't do anything with, Colonial Marines springs to mind. I had it for a day before I traded it in against another brand new game so because I could trade, another developer got my money who deserved it.
 
 On another note, I help run a computer game business and we don't stock new titles very often, unless preorderd, due to how expensive they are to buy at trade prices. Believe it or not, it is more cheaper for us to buy stock from online retailers than it is from trade suppliers. To top it off, the price of brand new retail games drops within a couple of weeks, the majority of the time, so werre stuck with stock we've paid full whack for so there is no incentive for us to pay full price on release. If a game can drop around 50% from RRP within a few weeks, why don't they charge less for it to begin with?
 
 We deal with used games as well as new releases if they are big titles and the majority trade in their used games towards new titles so I can't see why they hate the second hand market so much, they still get their money on release day.

You're beginning to sound like a broken record and just making assumptions based on a cynical view.

As for not caring out about developers you shouldn't have such a greedy, selfish and self serving attitude. Its got nothing to do with telling you what you can and cannot do. If you buy a crap game then that's your hard luck. That's what demos, reviews and feedback from other players is for. Why should developers suffer because you can't afford to buy all your games new or you might end up with the odd game you don't like and can't sell on.

Also I'm well aware of the cost of games especially to independent retailers as I use to work for an Indy game shop and was involved in the product ordering. I'm also well aware that Indy shops rely on the second hand market for a good portion of their revenue. That doesn't take away from the fact that second hand games take away revenue from the developers which affects their ability to employ people and to continue in business.

[Reaver]

I did say that I hope they don't go this route but they was adamant that they were going to stop it but suddenly backtracked on it. I personally think they still have plans for it and yes, you've probably gathered that I'm against it Believe me when I say that i hope they don't do it and that I am wrong. It obviously is worrying a lot of other people as well due to the numerous posts about it.

 

 As for waiting for demos and reviews etc. there was no demo for colonial marines, no reviews until it was released and only a few days after, the priced dropped considerably so if they can drop the price so quickly, why don't they charge less in the first place as obviously they can live without the £50 RRP? Big games, I have no second thoughts on dropping my cash on them, just received my Tomb Raider today, it's totally awesome and well worth the money but there are a hell of a lot of "standard" games out there that doesn't warrant the outlay and they drop in price so quickly. That's just my view on it, when the 3DS dropped in price so quickly there was uproar, not a lot of people were happy about it and Nintendo felt they had to do something about it, this happens every week with games.

 

 I agree with you when you say that second hand games take away, at least a portion, of revenue from developers but it's essentially how things work, in any business. I have owned numerous cars for example, I have never bought a brand new car, I have always bought second hand. I will never buy a brand new car as they are highly priced and I can get better value with a car that is a few years old for a fraction of the price. It's just the way the world works in any business.

 

 As said, i really hope I am wrong but Sony are seeming to be avoiding the question by saying that the PS4 supports used games but it also supports technology that can restrict them but it's up to the developer if they use it. For me, from a business and customer, I'm against the idea. just my opinion

[routerbad]

I highly doubt they will do that when they have already stated officially they are not going to prevent second hand games from being played on the console. Even of they do you and others make it sound like they are screwing over the consumers. What about all the developers who get less money because less new copies are sold due to the second hand market. This is one of the reasons why develpers get laid off and development houses close down. You obviously don't care about the people who actually make the games.

Actually developers get laid off and development houses close down because the publishers keep so much of the revenue.  The second hand game market has been around as long as the video game industry itself and somehow the industry has remained profitable.  Publishers are scrambling because all of a sudden, they aren't necessarily needed anymore.  With digital distribution and publisher agnostic gaming markets like steam indie devs can get seen more than ever before and people are starting to realize that the more innovative gaming experiences don't come from the big names.  Digital distribution is actually hurting the publishers more than the second hand market.  This is why EA scrambled to set up their own storefront, because they can't stand to have equal footing to other publishers and unpublished developers and it was costing them.

 

"The used game market is killing devs by making them less money" is the narrative parroted by publishers and the media to make you feel bad for going to gamestop, not because it is actually hurting them, but because how dare anyone else make profit on their products.  This is the same idea behind companies like addison-wesley lobbying to make second hand book markets illegal.  It has nothing to do with the authors, but digital distribution of books and the ease of finding information in general today is cutting into their profit margins.  Publishers in every industry are in panic mode because technology has brought the creators closer with the consumers.

 

You really should learn something about macroeconomics before spreading this tripe.

Edited by routerbad, 03 March 2013 - 09:34 AM.

[Gamejunkie]

Actually developers get laid off and development houses close down because the publishers keep so much of the revenue.  The second hand game market has been around as long as the video game industry itself and somehow the industry has remained profitable.  Publishers are scrambling because all of a sudden, they aren't necessarily needed anymore.  With digital distribution and publisher agnostic gaming markets like steam indie devs can get seen more than ever before and people are starting to realize that the more innovative gaming experiences don't come from the big names.  Digital distribution is actually hurting the publishers more than the second hand market.  This is why EA scrambled to set up their own storefront, because they can't stand to have equal footing to other publishers and unpublished developers and it was costing them.
 
"The used game market is killing devs by making them less money" is the narrative parroted by publishers and the media to make you feel bad for going to gamestop, not because it is actually hurting them, but because how dare anyone else make profit on their products.  This is the same idea behind companies like addison-wesley lobbying to make second hand book markets illegal.  It has nothing to do with the authors, but digital distribution of books and the ease of finding information in general today is cutting into their profit margins.  Publishers in every industry are in panic mode because technology has brought the creators closer with the consumers.
 
You really should learn something about macroeconomics before spreading this tripe.

If anyone's spreading tripe its you. You could learn a thing or two by doing some actual research not to mention using some common sense if you have any. There is nothing wrong with what I said. I suggest you stop spreading such nonsense.

[routerbad]

If anyone's spreading tripe its you. You could learn a thing or two by doing some actual research not to mention using some common sense if you have any. There is nothing wrong with what I said. I suggest you stop spreading such nonsense.

You really turned that one around.  Nothing I've stated is nonsense.  You have zero perspective because you'll only buy the line that video game media and publishers feed you.  The problem is that their message is being trumped by successful, independent development firms all over the world that are making games for everything from Android, IOS, and Windows Phone, to gaming consoles and PC.  While the idea of supporting developers by buying new games is sound, stating that the used game market, which has coexisted with the video game industry since the beginning, causes development houses to shutter is complete nonsense.  You have to track the money.  Used game sales get games into people's hands that probably wouldn't normally play that game (most consumers don't follow the industry and what games are good like you and I, a big reason for the success of the Wii) which actually broadens the user base considerably, because if they enjoy the experience they will recommend the game (remember what I've said before about word of mouth) to friends.  They are more likely to make purchases in the future based on their experience with that game.  This happens all the time.  So this actually stands to help the industry to an extent.  it creates more buzz around games and gives unsure buyers a lower cost entry fee into the industry. 

 

Now, on the other hand, digital distribution, kickstarter, Appstores, low cost self publishing on platforms, etc are all relatively new ideas that make it easier (not easy, but easier) to become your own publisher.  Crowd sourcing makes it easier to fund, appstores give you equal footing with professionally published material from a viewer perspective, digital distribution takes out the cost of providing physical media, and free or low cost SDK's and HDK's lower up front costs even further.  These are all great things, they give talented individuals the ability to connect with people through their chosen form of expression without being beholden to the whims and fancies of a giant publishing conglomerate.  I love the idea, and supporting these development teams is awesome!  You notice that the cost starts pretty low with these, though, which makes it an easier pill to swallow when buying anyway. 

 

Does this mean all publishers are bad?  Not necessarily.  It depends on company culture and the strength of the industry they are playing in.  Publishers in nearly every media industry (books, movies, music, games) are having serious issues, and they are all just starting to contend heavily with both digital distribution and unpublished talent competing all of a sudden.

 

I've done my research, apparently yours was focused on IGN rather than looking at the industry as a whole, or even a little research into how free market economies operate.  The fact that you resorted to the "i'm rubber, you're glue" argument is revealing.

[DMagoo24]

I just look at it this way. If you wish to prolong the life of your console run the games off a hdd that way your laser won't wear out. Each to their own though.

Never thought to see if it was an option, but can you download the game on your hdd like on the 360?

[cannonshane]

Not from a physical disc no, must be downloaded from the eshop.

[Gamejunkie]

You really turned that one around.  Nothing I've stated is nonsense.  You have zero perspective because you'll only buy the line that video game media and publishers feed you.  The problem is that their message is being trumped by successful, independent development firms all over the world that are making games for everything from Android, IOS, and Windows Phone, to gaming consoles and PC.  While the idea of supporting developers by buying new games is sound, stating that the used game market, which has coexisted with the video game industry since the beginning, causes development houses to shutter is complete nonsense.  You have to track the money.  Used game sales get games into people's hands that probably wouldn't normally play that game (most consumers don't follow the industry and what games are good like you and I, a big reason for the success of the Wii) which actually broadens the user base considerably, because if they enjoy the experience they will recommend the game (remember what I've said before about word of mouth) to friends.  They are more likely to make purchases in the future based on their experience with that game.  This happens all the time.  So this actually stands to help the industry to an extent.  it creates more buzz around games and gives unsure buyers a lower cost entry fee into the industry. 
 
Now, on the other hand, digital distribution, kickstarter, Appstores, low cost self publishing on platforms, etc are all relatively new ideas that make it easier (not easy, but easier) to become your own publisher.  Crowd sourcing makes it easier to fund, appstores give you equal footing with professionally published material from a viewer perspective, digital distribution takes out the cost of providing physical media, and free or low cost SDK's and HDK's lower up front costs even further.  These are all great things, they give talented individuals the ability to connect with people through their chosen form of expression without being beholden to the whims and fancies of a giant publishing conglomerate.  I love the idea, and supporting these development teams is awesome!  You notice that the cost starts pretty low with these, though, which makes it an easier pill to swallow when buying anyway. 
 
Does this mean all publishers are bad?  Not necessarily.  It depends on company culture and the strength of the industry they are playing in.  Publishers in nearly every media industry (books, movies, music, games) are having serious issues, and they are all just starting to contend heavily with both digital distribution and unpublished talent competing all of a sudden.
 
I've done my research, apparently yours was focused on IGN rather than looking at the industry as a whole, or even a little research into how free market economies operate.  The fact that you resorted to the "i'm rubber, you're glue" argument is revealing.

You certainly haven't done your research. And what makes you think you know where my research and information comes from. You don't know diddly squat about where my opinion comes from. I suggest you stop insulting other people's intelligence and own up to the fact that is your opinion and not fact. Like you I have my opinion. I don't agree with you and believe you're wrong. If you think the same of mine then so be it. Your opinion is just that and doesn't neccessarily make it anymore right them mine. I suggest you get of your high horse and think you're always right and others are wrong. My opinions come from working in the retail games industry for over 20 years for both national retailers and local independents as well as talking to developers and publishers.

[routerbad]

You certainly haven't done your research. And what makes you think you know where my research and information comes from. You don't know diddly squat about where my opinion comes from. I suggest you stop insulting other people's intelligence and own up to the fact that is your opinion and not fact. Like you I have my opinion. I don't agree with you and believe you're wrong. If you think the same of mine then so be it. Your opinion is just that and doesn't neccessarily make it anymore right them mine. I suggest you get of your high horse and think you're always right and others are wrong. My opinions come from working in the retail games industry for over 20 years for both national retailers and local independents as well as talking to developers and publishers.

I actually have, and working in VG retail certainly does not make one an expert in, well, anything.  I have several friends who have worked in the same industry for well over 15 years but they certainly don't consider themselves experts on the industry writ large, because they have little understanding about the politics involved.  Politics and economics I do get, very well.

 

You seem to have forgotten that you were the one that came in on a high horse labasting others for even contemplating buying a used videogame, and stated as fact that the used game sales subsidiary industry is killing dev houses and causing them to shutter.  You couldn't be more wrong.  My opinions are based in sound economic principle and history.

 

I honestly have zero interest in insulting your intelligence, and if I have, my sincerest apologies.  However, strong opinions beget strong opinions, and you would do better to actually listen to others' rather than assume that you are the subject matter expert.  We all have our strengths and it's better to work within a collaborative construct than a destructive one.  So for my part in any damage done again my apologies, I just ask that you respect the opinions of others if you want yours respected.  

 

I agree with you on many things, and I appreciate that what you aim to deliver are objective posts here, but you need to recognize that very rarely are your posts objective in the slightest.

 

You also need to read my posts carefully, remember them, because it isn't just video game publishers that are bleeding money and seeking to gain more control over the industry through proprietary services.  They have to compete with technology more than ever, because it truly is bringing customers and creators closer together than ever before and removing many of the roadblocks that made third party publishers a necessity to begin with.  If you don't see it that way, no worries, but it is happening regardless, and publishers in every media industry are scared.

 

BTW if there is something wrong with my posts, try posting a constructive reply rather than insults that lack any substance.  A peeing contest doesn't further the discussion, it only derails it.