The layers!!!

Its so nice to finally see some more 3d game design in 3d open world games.

I am going to be going nuts with the screen captures

Found what seems to be a pretty good translation of what went on in the video:

http://www.scooptend...ew-field-video/

I can't wait for this game it is gorgeous but what is going to  erk me is that some people will down grade this game because it runs at 720p not 1080p and look past the seer beauty and scale of this game.  To run at 720p is still impressive to me because I haven't to see anything yet on the other 8th gen and even last gen consoles that had XBC X's atmospheric scale.  My hat goes off for the devs at Monolith they have truly outdone themselves.  Now if only we could get that bundle over here in the west.

The game could have been 1080p 60fps, and those people would have just made up some other reason to crap on the game.

So, is this a system seller for Japan... especially since Nintendo is offering a bundle?

I think so.

Confirmed:
 
The pre-load for the game which went live in Japan a short time ago confirms the following details:

- Single Player RPG
- 4 Players Online Quests
- 32 Players Indirect Online (For Information exchange and item trading)

#XenobladeX supports GamePad, #WiiU Pro Controller, USB keyboard. Miiverse support. Off-TV play. 720p. pic.twitter.com/doXkkkLoxj

Comparing a 4 year old game to a 2015 one? That's sad, I understand you guys are hype about XBC, but abusing Skyrim to make yourself feel better is laugh worthy. Also it's clear that Nintendo and Mon-Soft aren't moving forward if they ain't getting their chosen goals. I just hope the game is known to everyone, as it could be a good sleeper hit.

 

Yeah, too bad we werent the ones who made those comparisons, over, and over, and over, and over and over, and over, and over again. Hell, its STILL being done on other boards. I bet desert punk has found himself a nice echo chamber to circle jerk too after he realized this game was real, and he couldnt use his bad ports=best wii u can do gimmick anymore.
 
So yeah, when we get confirmation that the game was 10x bigger than the game we were repeatedly told the wii u wasnt powerful enough to handle, as they pointed at every crap ps360 port as 'proof' that the wii u was weaker than ps360, yeah, were going to bring it back up and laugh at it. Get off YOUR high horse.

Can someone answer this for me. Wii U uses custom discs as they always have but it has the same capacity of blu ray at 25GB per layer. It's disc drive is a 5x cav 22MB per second. PS4 uses Blu Ray 6X cav 28 MB per second. PS3 was 2X. Can Wii U not do dual layer for some reason? Why the second disc?

 

My guess would be the seamless world.

 

The extra layer would increase the rom size capacity of the disc, but with that extra 25GB of data on that disc, well, now you have an extra 25GB of data adresses to search through when looking for, say, that texture the game wants to stream in, thats not currently in ram.... With the same search/read speed you had back with half the data to search through.

 

When you are watching a movie and everything is sequential, it doesnt really matter, when you are playing a game that stops to load the next area, it also does'nt really matter. When you are playing a 400 km squared seamless open world game, and you are doing tons of random access calls to your disc I bet having to deal with an extra 25GB adds up pretty fast.

Texture this game is FULL of a crazy variety of textures.

One of the first thinks I noticed. That's a TON of paint.

Even Destiny reuses a lot of textures and in Some areas takes the color palette really low.

But it till uses a ton of textures.

X however seems like and endless deluge of very large and variable graphics assets.

One of the more impressive things is looking down at the map from a high distance and not being able to notice texture tiles. That's huge. Try that with Skyrim and the like. Big difference.
Taking massive textures like that, the geometry, ai, scripting, collision detection,blighting, audio, etc... And fitting into aRam a with no loading... Whoa. That's dome serious load and memory management going on.

These guys deserve big sales just for being geniuses. Not to mention what's dhaping up to be a stellar game.

 

Oh, you mean like this?

 

 

I still can not believe how many people still swear up and down XcX is 'just on par with 360 open world games, its not doing anything ps360 hasnt done better in games like skyrim'

 

Its like they literally can not see the texture repeating every damn foot.

Good points.

But honestly, I feel Nintendo can eliminate a ton of this crap by simply marketing their games effectively. putting out high quality screenshots and videos all over the web (YouTube, create and send to ign etc...).

With X especially, unless you already own a wii u it was nigh impossible to see a good look at the footage.

If you see the YouTube videos, the "screenshots" all over the web, etc., they all look incredibly muddy, washed out, etc.

Then... You see the "direct" that moment Monolith put out and it's like "what the ohmygoshijustvomitedthewheatiesiateforbreakfastbevausethislookssofreakingamazing!"

It looks nearly like a different game because the difference between conpressed, decompressed, and decompressed again by the time it shows up anywhere. Then that crappy conpressed video gets a screen grab taken and compressed again into an even more crappy conpressed JPEG.

It actually makes me a little angry as this would be so freaking easy to fix by sending press kits with high quality screens and videos to the major players. And it would cost nearly nothing.

And the stinking media sites KNOW THIS. and they choose to use junk screens of junk videos.

When I show people the latest gameplay and tutorial video they unanimously freak out and have to have it.

Before then, they've heard of it a bit and weren't impressed.

It's all in the presentation.

Come on Nintendo.

Yes, we appreciate that you are focused on the GAME, not on swindling people out of their hard earned money.

But dadburnit, get with the program and have one or two people focus on marketing it right and leaving the industry with a proper high impression of the game.

Of course the media knows what they are doing to this game. They arent covering this game, because they are paid pr mouthpeices for AAAAAAA publishers. Nintendo refuses to play their reindeer games, so they give them gimped coverage, and the anti nintendo 'nintendo is backwards' narrative, because AAAAAAAA publishers want to make sure you know games that work the way they are advertised, work the moment you buy them and put in the disc, come complete for the buying price, instead of half a game for full price with a season pass sold seperately to get the whole game, is backwards because it doesnt have arbritrary feature that is nowhere near the big deal people have been brainwashed into thinking it is.

Voice chat is a nice feature. It is NOT a necessity for a game to not be worthless crap. The game actually WORKING when you put the disc in the machine, IS. But dont tell that to the media, thats not the picture their AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA retainers want to paint.

. There is no longer an enthusiest press for videogames, only extended pr mouthpeices.

Besides, there is no amount of advertising than cut through an entire generation of publisher media brainwashing.

People who are saying this:


Does more, and looks better, than this:




Are beyond the ability to objectively assess reality.

holy shiznet at the new music download. Makes up for the videos music.

"[Kawabata] Xenoblade Chronicles X is using up most of the space on the Wii U disk. It's really, really close to the storage limit. (To the point that at one stage we were considering using more than one disk for the game). To enjoy playing, the enormous seamless map must load quickly (which was achieved through the hard work of our programming division), but we had help from Nintendo proper implementing a further improvement to what we had. I believe we're going to reveal the details of that on the official page in the future, but to people considering purchasing the packaged version of the game, as one of the game's developers, I highly recommend you make use of this improvement."

 

Sounds like there will be an install from disc option.

 

I WILL buy the packaged version of this game. And I will absolutely take you up on your suggestion, Mr. Kawabata.

They just had to, didn't they?
 
EDIT
 
UGHGHGHGHGHGH

Dont forget squidbutt!

Well, we already knew the swimsuits were returning. Even if we hadnt already seen them, shulk in his skivvies is ridiculously popular in smash bros so...

But yeah, g string heavy armor appears to be back in full force from sharlas armor catalouge. Fortunately, they seem to have just as many practical looking armours as butt floss looking ones this time.

And the big bad shown in todays video shall henceforth be known, as SquidButt.

PS4 is Schwarzenegger
 
Xbox One is Stallone
 
PC is Norris(!)
 
Wii U is Van Damme
 
That is how I see things but don't ask me for my reasoning:p

Youre Van Damme right.

Hi guys i'm new here, but i've read since 1 year your comments. As many of you i'm too interessted in WiiU specs, but nobody knows about it (besides developers with a devkit) But there is one thing, that i can post here. Maybe it can give us some insight. Its nothing groundbreaking, or really new, but it shows that this system has enough power, and isnt only on par with PS360

Here is a post from a guy in eurogamer, who claims to be a developer. He sounds reasonable in my opinion. So the following posts are quotes from him

"It's interesting to see the Wii U's CPU being called "weak" all the time without qualification. There is a significant difference to developing for PowerPC hardware which is most likely the issue Ubisoft deal with here. You can do pretty stellar things on the Wii U hardware as a whole, and its design is strongly in favor of a kind of pseudo-PS3-SPU approach using 3 hardware threads plus compute shaders with the totally capable GPU, but it's still not port friendly without a lot of specific attention. TBH I've been impressed Ubi have put out the kind of port quality they have been.

There are things you can do on Wii U that carry far lighter footprints in certain settings, the lowest hanging fruit being SIMD ops for certain math. 2D vector math is stupid fast on the U, for instance. But overall it's pretty far from a "preconfigured PC" like the PS4 or the One.

Sidenote: I think it's interesting to see how far the PS3 has come. Remember the early days when games attempted to use the RSX "traditionally" and hit the brick wall of alpha blending time and time again? The amount of ludicrous slowdown on early PS3 games whenever something transparent appears make the more recent, SPU-tricksy games look like they arrived from the far flung future.

Regardless I think it's pretty uninteresting whether or not they'd shove a "next gen" game onto the Wii U. It's just not that system. I'd rather play a "next gen", heavyweight, grunty muscly game onto my PS4, and leave the Wii U to oddities and smaller things. Plenty of room for both."

"Nintendo counts on developers to know how compute shaders and parallelism work to alleviate the CPU issues (which are real). The GPU is, relatively speaking, a powerhouse and if you use it without care you are completely missing out on the intended design.

The thing that has bothered me the most with Wii U dev isn't "power" but simply that it's a weird idiosyncratic system that makes it hard to do things in traditional ways."


"As a developer, now having some (admittedly recent) insight into how the system is architected, anyone who complains its underpowered have very specific expectations of what a games system should be doing. I think it's, in one way, fair to expect every system under the sun to be designed to do the same things, I mean, they are in direct competition, but in this case there are going to be things that system A is built to do that system B will have a tougher time at and vice versa. The horrible Silent Hill 2 HD update Konami did for the PS3 struggles with rendering fog like the PS2 did, for instance, because of both the higher resolution render target and the basic fact that the PS3 is basically worse than the PS2 at rendering alpha blended surfaces. Think about that.

I can't get into more detail, but I for one, being an indie with a pretty small team and some specific ideas, have more than enough legroom to spare on the system, and I'm just plain excited to be working with a touchscreen with so little latency (wtf are you talking about, last gen touchscreen, TRY doing art on a capacitive screen) and such a potent legacy."

So these are the quotes. The username is Sunjammer on eurogamer, if you want to search him. As i said, he sounds reasonable and i would like to read your thoughts about this statements^^

 

The ps2 did have a bonkers memory bound fillrate, its read modify write/alpha blending was ridiculous. Something like 156x overdraw at 60fhz? Neither ps3 nor ps4 can match it... Under the conditions modern games are run, 720-1080 resolution and hundreds of operations per pixel. The 'problem' comes from the ps3 having 7x the pixels to fill as the ps2... and only 3-3.5? times the bandwidth to do it. But... They dont really need to rely on fillrate the way ps2 did, modern rendering techniques arent really fillrate bottle necked, being they have bajillions of little alu factories hammering out pixel shading and other operations, so even having infinite fill rate wont improve the frame rate all that much.

 

If you wanted to revert to gourad shading, 480i im pretty sure the ps3 and 4 would smoke themselves some ps2 fillrate turkey. But, even so, demo artists still have a blast going banannas on ps2's fillrate.

Apologies for not using your quote function, i'll be sure to use it when applicable in future.  However I don't think your abrupt repsonse was required on this occassion, given my comment was polite.  To answer your question who is cupoftea, please click back one page, as far as I could make out he had not been discredited and his claims were vast so again please click back one page and read his post.

 

 

 

Thanks for your polite and constructive reply, I will edit my post as you request.  I do think it is worth replying regardless of the age of the post or that the user may have left, as people like myself who are new to your forum may read this topic and could be misled by that users claims.

 

Well, dont worry, if you decide to keep reading Im sure you will see they were debunked. 

 

and again.... And again.... and again, and again, and again, and again and....

I don't recall. Search function here is defunct I think. If I had a username I could look up... would be a lot of time digging through old posts without.

I wonder how accurate it all was.

 

I went to the members list, and looked up the e's, no Expressos or espressos listed....

This pic was much better. The shading and detail are definitely beyond the last gen. How many racing games have you seen with foliage like that. Heck, how many games period. The only ones I can think of were made by Crytek and they were FPS.
 

They are getting fantastic mileage out of their instancing. The density and detail of the assets is fantastic, and the only place it is conspicuous that its being instanced is the trees... er, tree.... Which nobody will really be paying attention to blazing by @60 fps.

but that was what made it significant the guy did this before people knew the name of the cpu. he said what the CPU was going to be before anyone knew. i guess I was thinking of another forum. I thought he did post here one time though... I guess not.

 

I remember what you are talking about, so seeing that it wasnt here, I agree with you on it being another forum.

Extremely Common knowledge of unrelated techniques that actually hilariously debunk own claims in quoted text.

Still havent figured out what ibl is huh?

First off, Fast racing neo only gets around 920,600 (After scene culling) triangles a frame, roughly a triangle per pixel, as stated by Shin en themselves. You arent getting massively tesselated landscapes full of vertices and surface displacements like youve been hilariously posting pictures of, again, shin en said so themselves.

Shin'en: Tessellation itself is not resource heavy on recent GPUs but it depends on actual usage. Although even previous consoles had these features you saw it only very rarely used. People often think of it as an easy way to get free ‘level of detail’. That doesn’t work.

Its like they are speaking directly to you. They have already ruled out EXACTLY what you are delusionally proposing.

'We already tried various tessellation ideas and it is a very handy tool for certain situations.'

Certain situations is NOT spamming it on every single rock and crevice surface on a machine of the wii u's hardware caliber, again, like you are delusionally ranting about.
 
http://hdwarriors.co...upcoming-games/

Fast racing neo is fairly low poly, as expected as it only has 16ms per frame, but commands great use of instancing, extrapolating 300,000 instance out of 10,000 unique draw calls, with amazing lighting thanks to their use of ibl with global illumination in conjuction with... 3d scanning, the technique they stated was behind their art of balance curtain and scenes like the bed sheets level.




But, the proof is in the pudding, that no geometry is being added to fast racing neo's rock via tesselation, as they are all very obviously low poly meshes, easily identifiable by thier blocky sillouettes.



Made to look fantastic by the incredible pixel and post processing lighting work, as should be blatantly obvious as the trees even look pretty damn good thanks to the lighting and they are flat as cardboard.

and where exactly shinsn claims that they did not use tesselation or dispalcements(i have gone to the link and they dont mention anything you say)?

 

already shinen had said that they were preparing a game for wii u and they would use tesselation, and you can tell just by looking at the image that this game is using it; the level of detail of the rocks its pretty good and also there is internal occlusion and the silhoutte shadow corresponds pretty well with the bump areas, with normal mapping and bump mapping is not possible to achieve that, even less with objects that are parallel to our view; the geometry looks real, its not difficult to see that its not a trick of light that normal mapping and bump mapping use to fake it. We can also see that the terrain and the rocks have pretty good amount of vertices elswhere that give a good LOD, and to form finer pieces you need tesselation, and tessleation oftenly works along with displacment according to nvidia

 

parallex occlusion could have been a possibility if the terrain wasnt oblique. Oblique angels cause artifacts with parallex occlusion

 

So you have no idea what ibl is then.

 

Guy, you specifically said 'That must be tesselation' (from sand dunes 30 meters away, and a rock formation 500+ meters awat lol)

 

And they said ' We used a lot of 3D scanning. Great results but hard to work with >1GB files for a single mesh...' '. From these we process them to game compatible assets.'

 

 

Thats NOT tesselation guy, tesselation is the subdivision of primitives, into more vertices, in real time on the games runtime.

 

NOT scanning a real or high end 3d render image to get a result and then approximating it to usable game assets, thats image based.

 

Oh, and obviously ambient occlusion dingleberry, its not dependant on geometric complexity, and its not part of any texture map, and works from any visible angle.

 

 

Object and tangent space normal maps on a rock, no large depth of bumps.

 

 

Ambient occlusion added. Large craters appear.

 

 

 

 

and its angles. ANGLES, not angels, its not god powered graphics.

 

 

Seriously? At any point are you even going to ATTEMPT to read any material at all on what you are trying to argue about?

 

Ambient occlusion is NOT an effect that is 'usually used in ios games', in fact, it hasnt been used in ANY ios games, because until recently mobile phones havent had the power or battery to do it.

 

Modern combat 5 is the first actual game to do it, bragging out the wazoo for using the effect, and it hasnt even released yet. http://toucharcade.c...raphics-tricks/

 

 

Killzone shadow fall uses ambient occlusion, windwaker hd uses ambient occlusion, bayonetta 2 uses it, ryse son of rome uses it, infamous second son crows about using it in several interviews, the only people who dont brag about using ao as part of their global illumination solution, are using sparse voxel octree gi, but oh wait, no ps4 game out yet uses it because it can barely handle it, so the ps4 uses ambient occlusion instead.

 

It doesnt bother me that you have no idea what you are talking about. It does, however, bother me that youve argued this clueslessly about it, this long, without even ATTEMPTING to look up what you are arguing about, instead making up blatant lies like, 'hurrr thats an effect they use on cell phones!!!'

 

Thats crap. Do not lie to me because you dont feel like looking something up.

 

You dont understand how physical lighting works, and only notice a difference between how standard primitive local lighting works and thus think vastly superior global lighting is wrong. Its not.

 

Global illumination>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> local lighting.

 

That darkness where light doesnt bounce where the sand meets the concrete is physically correct, and fantastic use of ambient occlusion, which is NOT a 'cell phone only technique'.

 

Hell, anyone can look at any corner between walls in their house and see the effect ao simulates.

 

You have a LOT of reading to do.

 

 

 

Megafenix completely off topic really long post

 

1. Shin en THEMSELVES told you they arent using tesselation for the environment. https://mobile.twitt...99301386240?p=v

 

Thats it dude. Its not tesselated.

 

2. What does any of that have to do with ibl? 

3. Do you know what ibl is?

4. If you bothered to look up and copy vomit all that unrelated material, why didnt you just look up ibl?

 

Shin en said no to tesselation, here is why:

The wii u has geometry shaders, while its above and beyond ps3/xbone... Its not up to snuff to gcn architecture like xbone and ps4 are using, so, as shin en said, its not some crazy 'get tons of vertice detail for free card' like people seem to think. Geometry shaders CAN do some good tesselation, but its not their primary purpose, which is too evaluate primitives or interpolate values. Again, they can do it, but they are limited, there is an in process upper bounds on the number of output elements, and the execution must stay within the shader. Instancing can speed up the second issue, but any way you slice it, its not something you want to try and use on a large environment with geometry shaders, especially if you are going for a 60fps target, thats what tesselation shaders are for. Which shinen actually more or less said in an interview asking about tesselation.

 

It would, however, work pretty well with a small number of objects like say the in game vehicles. Its probably used for detail work on the close lod's of the vehicles.

As I stated before you started your crap parade fenix, any repeats that ignore their answers and just repost the same erroneous misunderstood copy pastas that have already been answered and debunked will be hidden, and labeled as the spam they are. This isnt IGN where you can repeat the same damn post for 25 pages of obnoxious eyesores.

If you cant figure out a way around the last post (because its reality) then try a different subject.

Aw fudge, when 3Dude first posted that screen I thought it was a freakin PC game that he was using to talk about tesselation or some technical babble. That's just sexy, idk what else to say.


Also, I hope this game has some sort of damage modelling, sparks and explosions when you crash hard. Just some stuff to make the cars feel more weighty because they don't feel heavy in League.
Take a leaf out of Most Wanted's book, that game made the cars feel real weighty.

That would be really cool. I have no idea what shin'en is doing with their physics engine beyond one statement 'Our physics runs at 240 fps'.

I keep coming into this thread every bump hoping for new screens

Im guessing we are going to see some very very dense backgrounds. Lots of trees, buildings etc.

The system is plenty capable. Sonic Lost World is 1080p 60fps http://mynintendonew...-runs-at-1080p/
Rayman was built for Wii U and ported to PS360. Batman Armored Edition is 1080P. ACIII does. ACIV I think does but the frame rate is lower. 900P on XBO
 
While not a conformation but Zelda U screens were in 1080P. MK8 screenshots were 720P. Also gotta remember Wii U is not built like a PC it's built like a console so over time it will be optimized more unlocking more potential and tapping more into it's power. XBO and PS4 have no secrets they are what they are/ XBO will have resolution gate til the end of it's life. Wii U will just get better.

The wii u can do 1080p easily. The problem is, using that fillrate to fill those extra pixels you have when going from 720p to 1080p takes away from the fillrate used for those effects that make the best looking wii u games look so good.

Thats why shin en dropped nano assault hd from 1080p to 720p with more effects.

With only 8 rops, the wii u will always have to choose.