Third party publishers like Activision expect the same thing to happen with the other consoles.

No, they expected the Wii to be a success. They launched the DS as a test for the causal market. When that sold, the HD console you speak of ceased development and they finished the Wii concept.
That's why the DS was called the third pillar, and they said the Game Boy brand wasn't dead. You seen any new Game Boys lately? (still hoping for a return someday lol)
They didn't kill the Wii intentionally, it just ended up doing that. Nintendo made a lot of mistakes, but the graphics didn't suffer because of gamepad development. The only thing that hindered graphics is it was released in 2012. If it was released in 2013, it would be on the same level as the others and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
However, Nintendo released in 2012. And you know what? The difference between these three consoles, aren't that huge if a gap like Wii vs PS3 & 360.

I forgot about the third pillar, lol. I figured then that it was a fancy way of saying transitioning into a different demographic before expanding the product across the entire demographic. Including GBA BC made me think this way.

I did not know they expected immediate success with the Wii. I presumed they expected to expand into the blue ocean while offering the established market something the competition was not. Hence all of those Wii's gathering dust next to the HD Twins awaiting exclusives.

So,launching in 2012 makes sense with regards to the global economic recovery, yet 2011 fit better with Nintendo's product cycle.

What I have problems understanding, from an R&D standpoint, is how the architecture could not be finalized by E3 2011, with dev tools and software being developed from then on? I believe everything in it existed at this point, may be wrong. Clock speed would be all that remained.

I appreciate routerbad and yourself for being so generous with your time in regards to discussing these concepts.

We already know it won't be.  They are using two separate teams to develop the x86 and PowerISA versions of the game.  The team that is making the Wii U version will downport to PS360, the other team will make it for PS4 and XBone

  

The wii u version of the game started along with ps4.
360 and ps3 started later.
The wii u version will likely use PC/ps4 assets and vice versa.
And this is to be expected of most games as the new generation continues with new consoles entering the market.

  

They are developing the next Gen together. It's not ported from PS3 and 360.

I hope it turns out really good. Without specific screens, and an influx of GAF rumors, one can get a little concerned that the Wii U version would be on a completely different level. Then again, the GAF group presumes the PS4 will be ultra efficient, and the Jaguar cores will all be available to games. Oh, and that the cores are fast, lol.

You mean a Gears of Wars type of title? I didn't mean Gears of Wars will be released for Wii U.
But I am positive we'll see sone marvelous footage at E3, especially if UbiSoft Shows Wii U Watch Dog footage.

And I just have an issue with expecting something from Nintendo that hasn't ever happened in console gaming in a long time. This isn't like a jump from 2D TO 3D. This isn't like from SD TO HD. This generation will be smaller leaps in graphics. That's all I'm saying.

Nintendo wanted a head start. Unfortunately, they didn't capitalize on it. Good thing, because the fact the hardware was still being developed last year means they were addind features they needed. But it also makes it hard to develop for.
If I were a developer, I'd make for Wii U, and then port that way. It makes the most sense because it's easier to move up then it is to down grade.

That seems to be the most logical, yet it appears as though there is either an established engine on another platform, or the game already exists on another platform.

I hope if Watchdogs is Wii U/360/PS3, that Wii U is lead. Otherwise, I hope the rumors are true and the game is ported from the PS4 to see how comparable the machine is.

They didn't think that the Wii U controller would cause the same amount of excitement as the Wii did, but they were under heavy pressure by investors to release new hardware, and fast, because sales of the Wii were declining rapidly.
 
Now, they had a general idea of where they would like to go with it hardware wise, but they weren't finished revising the hardware until mere months before launch.  As a matter of fact, it was the week of e3 2012.  This left them with little time for optimizing and revising the OS, stress testing and getting a solid feel for the hardware and how it performed in real world operations (theoreticals don't really help with the actual kit), or get decent tools out to developers who needed them to work on games with very little time to push to market.

I don't know, none of it adds up. Having a content filled 2010, followed by killing the Wii in 2011 with very little support, and expecting a half baked successor to fill the gap? I would think the board of directors would not approve.

However, they were not expecting the Wii to be a hit, and they had the HD console on stand by in case it flopped. Yet it was a huge success.

With what your saying, the only logical business strategy is to bank on the Wii brand name to stimulate early adoption. It seems as though it is the logical choice given the parameters.

But...on the technical end, it was not as simple as releasing a machine that played current ports better. Instead they had to optimize for games 2 years out and beyond.

So, I am left trying to reverse engineer their business strategy. The machine,s power is not up for debate until we see actual next gen titles on it IMO.

Guys,

 

I honestly believe the following:

 

1. Nintendo's exit with the Wii hampered Wii U excitement.
2. Confusion over the controller compounded with #1 has a lot to do with less enthusiasm. 
3. Nintendo honestly believed the gamepad would be the next Wii Controller with consumer response. 
4. Item #3 hampered focus from graphic fidelity to gamepad integration and focus. Hence the lack of tools (possibly one, non-intentional reason, but this could explain why things were so poor at launch).
5. Finally, items 3&4 led third parties to believe functioning software, with gamepad integration, would provide a decent ROI. Given the low install base and probable attachment ratio, the investment did not need to be too high to begin with.  

Now, this is really item 6, and this deserves it's own paragraph. Publishers have watched year over year decreases in game sales. They anticipate the PS4 and Xbone to reverse this trend. Hence forth, they are spending as little as possible to bring ports to a new market (Wii U), while holding back until the 'big boys' launch. At this point, the Wii U's install base is bigger, and they know that one of two things will happen:

 

1. The new consoles will face shortages, which will increase Wii U sales.
2. The Wii U install base will grow.

Why post this in a thread about the Wii U's technical prowess? I think everyone can see why, but if not, allow me to conclude:

 

Ports from the Xbone are coming. The architectures are too similar, and the costs of developing for the PS4/Xbone will be too great to not have the game on every platform possible (these new games will not be like the PC games of console ports on very high, but rather, new, more ambitious titles).  The game market will not explode to the levels we saw in 2007-2009. The tablet did not exist, and the overall gaming options that you can get, for free, on PC were not as sophisticated (for casuals). Plus, the market is always changing, as people age and demographics shift (my 7 year old wanted an Ipad Mini over a Wii U:(). 

 

The point? This is a business. Money is the final arbiter. If I have this figured out, you can bet Nintendo does too.

This can get tiring. Maybe I should copy paste a generic response to these type of posts.

[/sarcasm]

Anyway, I digress. You cherry picked PS3, so let me do a little cherry picking of my own.

I remember when the 360 came out people harped on Rare's PD Zero for looking not much better than original Xbox. That nothing at launch showed the system and what it can do. So I guess the 360 was doomed, and it isn't capable of running games like Gears of Wars, Halo 3 & 4, Assassin Creed III and Watch Fogs, right?

Look, every generation we have that one game for a console that really shows what games will look like. Gears of Wars was that game last generation. That was a YEAR after the 360 launched. How long has the Wii U been out?

Look, this is just ludicrous that people expect end of generation level graphics at the start. With the PS4. and X1, it's possible only because developers know the hardware. But with Wii U they have to learn it's strength and weaknesses, and it's very clear listening to developers that the Wii U does better when you use it's features instead of trying to use what worked on past consoles.

[/End of Rant]

In addition, we have the ROI factor. The budgets on these games are enormous, so much so that a publicly traded company (or any company for that matter) is concerned with getting the product running, and taking advantage of the gamepad. 

 

With 2.5 million users or so (2012), and a lower attach rate, the incentive is not really there to pour resources into optimization. Re:R is a good example of a compromise. A 360/PS3 port that takes advantage of the Wii U's unique features. Sniper V2, from what little I played, appears to run well, but seems like an attempt to cash in before more competition enters the market. 

 

Now, with the Xbone and PS4 imminent, with the same architectural design (GPGPU), we should see down ports of those versions. I hope we do at least (in the case of Watchdogs and Drive especially). In this instance, it makes less sense to port the 360/PS3 versions unless no other resources (marketing, DLC) are used for the Wii U version. 

 

I presumed, from rumors of the quad core PPC and 4850 that the Wii U was a souped up 360 from an architectural standpoint, or roughly a 1080p PC from 2008-9. Given what we are seeing, I am wondering how Nintendo thought launching early was possibly a good idea, considering that the summer update appears to bring things closer to a final version for consumers, and more mature tools are emerging for developers. 

 

Great thread guys, very enjoyable reading! 

I believe it is reasonable to expect a lack of support as the main concern over and beyond power. Other than that, my impression is this:

 

Ultra Hd

High-End PC-Very High

Mid Range PC-High

 

1080p

PS4-Medium

Xbone-low to medium

 

720p

Wii U- Low to Medium

 

This is, say, 2 years from now. Of course, we need sales and third parties in order to prove any kind of theory. The current 'toss on something old since those Wii owners don't have other consoles' thing is not helping. However, anyone with a PC now can try bumping graphics up and down, with a controller in hand, and seeing how large of a difference it makes to the game experience. It just isn't the big deal it used to be.

 

So, underpowered, compared to what? Certainly not to the extent Wii was incompatible with the current generation. 

 

 

 

 

Neither
 
#GoogleTV

Lol. I already run. A HTPC so the XBone disappoints.

But this post is from my Nexus.

Speed. I want to boot up enter a game, and play within a minute or less. As we see, gamers, specifically the repeat buyers, should be focus number one. Their side activities, number 2, and everyone else will come.

Haters gonna hate
 
Doesnt matter if the X1 doesnt have used game fee's or not, people will always find something

Fanboys yes, but would you rather have MS or Apple in your living room? It seems like the customer is an after thought, and they have a reverse value proposition.

I dislike MS's customer service, so no. It roots back to a RROD with a purchased warranty, and getting sending them my 360 in mint condition. They sent me a stained one in return that died quickly after. Worse yet, they never refunded the paying warranty holders after everyone got a free warranty.

Then came Windows 8. So no. I think I will go PS4 or Steam Box if the need for a second console arises.

I dislike MS's customer service, so no. It roots back to a RROD with a purchased warranty, and getting sending them my 360 in mint condition. They sent me a stained one in return that died quickly after. Worse yet, they never refunded the paying warranty holders after everyone got a free warranty.

Then came Windows 8. So no. I think I will go PS4 or Steam Box if the need for a second console arises.

I honestly love the potential for the gamepad and TV integration for exclusive titles. Stuff like Wario G&W is really exciting to me, as this concept could carry on to the indie scene. Speaking of that, some of these IOS and Droid devs have a great deal of potential, but those games are limited by the lack of buttons (my opinion). 

 

(Nintendo's IP's+Indie Devs)^GamePad=excitement 

 

This will be interesting. I hope third parties end up on board. However, it will have to be a la Watch Dogs (separate development team), or it will always feel like tacked on half assery. 

Well, I have not experienced any of the issues they are talking about. Erratic control? Not once. If anything, my accuracy is better than in other games, which surprises me (controller aiming is not my thing). 

 

FPS dipping from 32-28 is not a big deal. .875% of a dip will be unnoticeable during gameplay. Where it becomes an issue is when you end up bouncing 15-40% all of the time. That is hinders gameplay. 

 

Finally, Capcom probably did a 'lazy' port. If by 'lazy', they targeted the PS3 as the lead technical platform for the consoles, and made it work on the Wii U and 360, then we really do not have much to complain about considering the userbase and software attachment ratios.  At least both versions look identical, and the PC version, outside of tweaking settings, appears to have the same assets/engine settings. 

 

So, DF spins their conclusion with another subtle smear on the Wii U's technical capabilities, oh well. Remember when the die shots were released, and they proclaimed their forecast was accurate, only to have Chipworks come out and essentially refute everything? Time has shown Latte to be so customized that nobody really knows what it is (precisely). 

 

I really wish Nintendo optimized their tools a la Microsoft. Imagine multi-platforms running better at all times regardless of the lead platform. I am shocked that Nintendo did not learn from the PS3's early years (outside of not releasing a complicated architecture). Nintendo is in the position of helping third parties at this stage in the product's life cycle, not expecting them to figure it out. 

He's trolling.  Regardless, GDDR5 won't make any difference with regard to game visuals.

Nothing you said is correct, just none of it.  "GPU-Centric games" all next gen games will be GPU centric because all next gen systems are GPU centric. 

 

The main memory bandwidth is not understood, and only criticized by sites that are willing to forgo journalistic integrity for hits. When any real analysis or discussion is done, with people who actually develop for the system, there are never any of these criticisms.  No criticism of the GPU, no criticism of the memory architecture, and yes, not even any criticism of the CPU.

 

40nm is not a cheap process, it is just common at the moment.  They are not using "low bandwifth" RAM chips, they are using DDR3, the current general purpose processing memory standard.  Their memory architecture is actually much more robust and efficient than PS4's.

 

Wii U isn't "competitive" with PS3 and 360, it wallops them, The weak point of the WiiU (the CPU) is more powerful than both of the PPE based CPU's with regards to IPC.  The only area where it is weaker is SIMD, which is not necessary on a GPU centric system.  Still, the SIMD on the CPU is enough to get equivalent if not better performance on games that are ported and running on two of the CPU cores (using CPU SIMD still, rather than GPU).  It was revealed recently that all of the ports for the WiiU only had access to two of the CPU cores because the tools were very immature, it still was able to run CPU-centric games.

 

Again you are arguing GLFOPs when they mean so very little.  When will some of you people realize that FLOPS is the new GHz, its the big number that can be used to market chips.  WiiU has fewer FLOPS from fully programmable shaders, yes, but 50% of the GPU logic is not accounted for.  PS4 will be pretty much all unified shaders, no custom logic.  WiiU is not the same, and while it is still a weaker GPU, it is not as weak as you think.

 

For reference, RSX (PS3 GPU) was marketed by Sony as having 1.8TFLOPs.

 

Your arguments are tired, and you apparently refuse to read anything that isn't in agreement with your confirmation bias.  Learn something before responding again with nonsense.

Thank you, Sir. You continue to make fantastic posts that stand as beacons in a sea of confusion. 

 

Everything remains to be seen from Sony and Microsoft. Even then, next gen is going to rock at 1080p and sub 30 fps. Anyone getting consoles for graphics fidelity is fooling themselves. Get a console for exclusive games and new ways of playing. 

 

I have news for everyone, if the PS4 was as powerful as they will claim, it would cost $1500 at a loss, and be very large. Remember the PS3's promises? Routerbad points one out. I remember 2 monitors, 1080p as a standard, 4d, and various other nonsensical claims. Meanwhile, the Wii U has 1 game being showcased on mature development tools at the moment that isn't a remake. 

 

The internets are a lot of fun around console launch times. I have really missed it. 

I am doing this with Wii U, 3ds, and PC. It isn't fanboyism, but rather, time constraints. I would love you have everything, but I cannot justify the expense unless it will occupy hours of my time. Honestly, I cannot justify the expense of PC upgrades if the game is on Wii U. 

 

Honestly, a game like Ninja Rabbit is giving me more enjoyment than online shooters ever have. I guess I am not hardcore enough for a second console anyway, LOL.