i also think there hasnt been much generation leap, this kind of feels like the transition from nes to snes, not the huge leap from 32/64bits systems to the 128 bits systems like gamecube,xbox and ps2 or the great leap from these consoles to the ps3 and 360. Although i admit that the the new graphic features make the games look prettier and is nice to have games in native hd or full hd instead of sub-HD and less screeen tear

I am not fan of fatal frame series but i would like this one to come to usa

Good story, wonderful graphics and a bit enjoyable gameplay

I also want to play xenoblade x

actually they neither denied it nor directly confirmed it, although 3d scanning gives pretty large assets that would be impossible to fit in ram even with BC1 texture compression(assets of >1GB per mesh are way to big for the wii u ram even with 6x texture compression), and since they say they transform those files into compatible assets its very possible that they used tesselation with dispalcement maps to reduce the memory storage of the original assets, after all they wouldnt be the fiorst ones in taking this approach, and reading thier response again the answer could be taken as a complement to what i mentioned

Long time no see... but on topic I can't wait to see this actually in motion. should be sweet. Cool they are delivering and not delaying like project cars and 90's arcade racer but yes I hope this releases before the end of the year?

I am also pretty existed about this game, also the comments from the developer pretty much confirmed that wii u has pretty good capabilities and good amount of edram bandwidth that it can handle triple buffering for the deffered rendering with ease and this technique is known to take a lot bandwidth and crytek knows that since the esram on xbox one is barely enough for the framebuffer of 900p and the gbuffer for the deffered rendering, but with wii u shinen only uses 1/3 of the edram for the triple buffering with g buffers and about 7.1MB of edram for the framebuffer with double buffering, that still leaves almost half main edram for other things

the art style seems to resemble wipeout hd for the ps3

So you have no idea what ibl is then.

 

Guy, you specifically said 'That must be tesselation' (from sand dunes 30 meters away, and a rock formation 500+ meters awat lol)

 

And they said ' We used a lot of 3D scanning. Great results but hard to work with >1GB files for a single mesh...' '. From these we process them to game compatible assets.'

 

 

Thats NOT tesselation guy, tesselation is the subdivision of primitives, into more vertices, in real time on the games runtime.

 

NOT scanning a real or high end 3d render image to get a result and then approximating it to usable game assets, thats image based.

 

Oh, and obviously ambient occlusion dingleberry, its not dependant on geometric complexity, and its not part of any texture map, and works from any visible angle.

 

Mind you, what if they used 3d scanning?

here

http://www.academia....acement_Mapping

"

Domain surface and a scalar displacement map

One application of displacement mapping that will be looked at more closely is displaced subdivision surfaces (Lee et al, 2000). It is used for describing surface of highly detailed models that are generated by 3D scanning devices. This method greatlyreduces memory requirements for the model, as it requires only a relatively simpledomain surface and a scalar displacement map.

"

Another example

http://research.micr...e/hoppe/dss.pdf

"

Displaced Subdivision Surfaces

ABSTRACT

In this paper we introduce a new surface representation, the

displaced subdivision surface. It represents a detailed surface

model as a scalar-valued displacement over a smooth domain

surface. Our representation defines both the domain surface and

the displacement function using a unified subdivision framework,

allowing for simple and efficient evaluation of analytic surface

properties. We present a simple, automatic scheme for converting

detailed geometric models into such a representation. The

challenge in this conversion process is to find a simple

subdivision surface that still faithfully expresses the detailed

model as its offset. We demonstrate that displaced subdivision

surfaces offer a number of benefits, including geometry

compression, editing, animation, scalability, and adaptive

rendering. In particular, the encoding of fine detail as a scalar

function makes the representation extremely compact.

1. INTRODUCTION 

An alternative is to express the detailed surface as a displacement

from some simpler, smooth domain surface (see Figure 1).

Compared to the above, this offers a number of advantages:

(1) the patch structure of the domain surface is defined by a

control mesh whose connectivity is much simpler than that of

the original detailed mesh;

(2) fine detail in the displacement field can be captured as a

scalar-valued function which is more compact than traditional

vector-valued geometry;

A simple example of a displaced surface is terrain data expressed

as a height field over a plane. The case of functions over the

sphere has been considered by Schröder and Sweldens [33].

Another example is the 3D scan of a human head expressed as a

radial function over a cylinder. However, even for this simple

case of a head, artifacts are usually detectable at the ear lobes,

where the surface is not a single-valued function over the

cylindrical domain.

The challenge in generalizing this concept to arbitrary surfaces is

that of finding a smooth underlying domain surface that can

express the original surface as a scalar-valued offset function.

"

Here you have a prctical use of 3d scanning with displacement

http://pixelsix.net/...tivePlay.3Dscan

"

3D Scanning

For my personal scanning results go to link

Friedrich's Milkscanner

The Milkscanner is a free tool that allows the scanning of objects and creates a Displacement map for use with Moviesandbox or any other 3D App that would allow for displacement mapping.

"

here is another if you dont like that one

http://www.surfacemimic.com/gallery/

"

Welcome!

"

Considering the above and this reply from Shinen:

"

"

Its obvious that the 3d scanning would later be converted to compatible meshes and they would later process them with tesselation and other stuff

As for the rest you are claiming, there are level of detail you know, its obvious they are using displacements and tesselation cause the geometry feels real not a fake using lighting tricks like bump or normal maps which are easy to tell in parallel objects?

http://www.nvidia.co...-bundle-uk.html

so are you saying taht the rocks and mountains in fast racing neo look like the image in the left side?

here more examples

is the ground in fast racing neo plane or detailed ith true geometry?

you can also tell that is diplacment and not bump or normal mapping cuase these ast 2 just simulate depth with light and if you look closely looks plane specially in parallel objects, and also the shadows of the objects would not reflect the bumps on the edges while diplacement does; looking closely to the shadows we can see that hey in fact respect the bumps of the edges of the objects

Displacement mapping is a technique for adding geometric detail to surfaces at render time. In contrast with bump mapping, which works by just changing the surface normal to create the illusion of surface detail, displacement mapping modifies the surface itself.Here is an example of the same object rendered with bump mapping and with displacement mapping:

                                     Original object                                                                                        Bump mapping

                                                                                   Displacement mapping

In the case of displacement mapping, the surface is actually modified, which leads to correct outline, shadow and GI. In the case of bump mapping, although the surface appears modified, the outline and the shadow stay the same.

Note that displacement is different from other kinds of shading, since it needs to modify the actual object surface. Therefore an object must be displaced before it can be rendered. This is why in V-Ray displacement is represented with a modifier (although the modifier can take the displacement map from the object material).

Sorry dude, you did this to you on your own

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously? At any point are you even going to ATTEMPT to read any material at all on what you are trying to argue about?

 

Ambient occlusion is NOT an effect that is 'usually used in ios games', in fact, it hasnt been used in ANY ios games, because until recently mobile phones havent had the power or battery to do it.

 

Modern combat 5 is the first actual game to do it, bragging out the wazoo for using the effect, and it hasnt even released yet. http://toucharcade.c...raphics-tricks/

 

 

Killzone shadow fall uses ambient occlusion, windwaker hd uses ambient occlusion, bayonetta 2 uses it, ryse son of rome uses it, infamous second son crows about using it in several interviews, the only people who dont brag about using ao as part of their global illumination solution, are using sparse voxel octree gi, but oh wait, no ps4 game out yet uses it because it can barely handle it, so the ps4 uses ambient occlusion instead.

 

It doesnt bother me that you have no idea what you are talking about. It does, however, bother me that youve argued this clueslessly about it, this long, without even ATTEMPTING to look up what you are arguing about, instead making up blatant lies like, 'hurrr thats an effect they use on cell phones!!!'

 

Thats crap. Do not lie to me because you dont feel like looking something up.

 

You dont understand how physical lighting works, and only notice a difference between how standard primitive local lighting works and thus think vastly superior global lighting is wrong. Its not.

 

Global illumination>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> local lighting.

 

That darkness where light doesnt bounce where the sand meets the concrete is physically correct, and fantastic use of ambient occlusion, which is NOT a 'cell phone only technique'.

 

Hell, anyone can look at any corner between walls in their house and see the effect ao simulates.

 

You have a LOT of reading to do.

 

 

 

 

 

1. Shin en THEMSELVES told you they arent using tesselation for the environment. https://mobile.twitt...99301386240?p=v

 

Thats it dude. Its not tesselated.

 

2. What does any of that have to do with ibl? 

3. Do you know what ibl is?

4. If you bothered to look up and copy vomit all that unrelated material, why didnt you just look up ibl?

 

Shin en said no to tesselation, here is why:

The wii u has geometry shaders, while its above and beyond ps3/xbone... Its not up to snuff to gcn architecture like xbone and ps4 are using, so, as shin en said, its not some crazy 'get tons of vertice detail for free card' like people seem to think. Geometry shaders CAN do some good tesselation, but its not their primary purpose, which is too evaluate primitives or interpolate values. Again, they can do it, but they are limited, there is an in process upper bounds on the number of output elements, and the execution must stay within the shader. Instancing can speed up the second issue, but any way you slice it, its not something you want to try and use on a large environment with geometry shaders, especially if you are going for a 60fps target, thats what tesselation shaders are for. Which shinen actually more or less said in an interview asking about tesselation.

 

It would, however, work pretty well with a small number of objects like say the in game vehicles. Its probably used for detail work on the close lod's of the vehicles.

 

and where exactly shinsn claims that they did not use tesselation or dispalcements(i have gone to the link and they dont mention anything you say)?

already shinen had said that they were preparing a game for wii u and they would use tesselation, and you can tell just by looking at the image that this game is using it; the level of detail of the rocks its pretty good and also there is internal occlusion and the silhoutte shadow corresponds pretty well with the bump areas, with normal mapping and bump mapping is not possible to achieve that, even less with objects that are parallel to our view; the geometry looks real, its not difficult to see that its not a trick of light that normal mapping and bump mapping use to fake it. We can also see that the terrain and the rocks have pretty good amount of vertices elswhere that give a good LOD, and to form finer pieces you need tesselation, and tessleation oftenly works along with displacment according to nvidia

parallex occlusion could have been a possibility if the terrain wasnt oblique. Oblique angels cause artifacts with parallex occlusion

well, i have read the differences between displacement mapping and other techniques like bump mapping and normal mapping and in this picture its clear they are using dispalcement map

the difference is simple, bump mapping doesnt create geometry, it jst creates the illusion of a bump using lighting tricks

http://www.3dtutoria.../tutorial?id=10

"

What Is The Difference Between Displacement And Bump Maps?

A displacement map is real geometry (polygons), while a bump map is tricks of light to make it look like it has real geometry. Normal maps are like bump maps, as in the way they both trick the light, but normal maps actually change the surfaces normals and bend the light. Bump map renders faster but you do lose quality. Normal maps are used more in low poly games. Displacement maps, because of their longer render time, are mostly used on objects that need high level detail.
(NOTE; To see a bump map or a normals map in the view port, on the view port menu, go to shading>hardware texturing. Still on the view port rendering, now go to renderer>high quality rendering. Now you can see it in the view port.)

Bump Map

Bump map is best used for when adding "texture" to a model. Example; cloth, pores, surfaces that don't want to look 100% smooth, etc.

A displacement map generates real geometry, unlike some other features in Maya that just trick the bending of light. A displacement map can not be seen in high quality render mode in the view port, but you can convert a displacement map into real geometry you can physically see in the Maya view port.

"

Here is anoher good example with images

http://help.chaosgro...isplacement.htm

"

What is displacement mapping?

Displacement mapping is a technique for adding geometric detail to surfaces at render time. In contrast with bump mapping, which works by just changing the surface normal to create the illusion of surface detail, displacement mapping modifies the surface itself. Here is an example of the same object rendered with bump mapping and with displacement mapping:

                                     Original object                                                                                        Bump mapping

                                                                                   Displacement mapping

In the case of displacement mapping, the surface is actually modified, which leads to correct outline, shadow and GI. In the case of bump mapping, although the surface appears modified, the outline and the shadow stay the same.

Note that displacement is different from other kinds of shading, since it needs to modify the actual object surface. Therefore an object must be displaced before it can be rendered. This is why in V-Ray displacement is represented with a modifier (although the modifier can take the displacement map from the object material).

"

limitaion of bump mapping vs dispalcement

https://diglib.eg.or...df.abstract.pdf

"

Bump mapping does not really alter the underlying geometry,
but only perturbs the normals on the surface. For small irregularities
on a surface, bump mapping is ideal, since it does not increase
the amount of geometry, but gives the impression of real textured
surfaces.

The limitation of bump mapping becomes obvious when
the surface is parallel to the viewer and the Bump does not create a
silhouette. Also as a surface moves in perspective space the shape
created in the viewers mind by the bump map will not occlude other
objects.

To add real geometric detail to a flat surface, displacement mapping,
first introduced by Cook [2], can be used

"

here we have examples with the limitation of normal maps and that they only fake geometry and silhoute does not change

on the other hand here we have the results with displacement mapping

http://stoneschool.c...2004/index.html

"

At left is the basic result: a plane with real displacement mapping. Note that this is not bump or normal mapping; it's true displacement mapping. The silhouette edge is correct, and there are internal occlusions from the displaced surfaces, neither of which you get from bump/normal mapping.

The trick to this is pretty much what the title says: it's doing a discretized ray cast within the volume of the maximum displacement in the GPU. The movie that comes along with the sketch has a pretty clear diagram about what they're doing.

"

We can clearly see in this picture that the rocks do have a true level of detail and that the meshes have correct outline, global ilumination and shadows(you can clearly see that the shadows of the rocks respect the the bumpy areas where bump mapping and normal mapping would not show the shadows of the simulated outline). Plus, eventhough some rocks are parallel to the view, the paralell surface of the rocks do have a corresponding  silhoutte for the bumps, normal mapping and bump mapping have a limitation that would not let them modify the silhoutte of the mesh and in parallel view is very obvious, not to mention that there are internal occlusions in the dispalced surfaces, something that is not possible neither with bump mapping nor with normal mapping

http://hypershadehan...splacement-map/

as for the possibility of being the work of parallax occlusion, well I at first considered it but hs a limitation with oblique angels that produce artifacts that we do not see here

look:

http://udn.epicgames...dedMapping.html

"

Parallax Occlusion mapping

Parallax occlusion mapping adds depth by ray tracing to find the correct texture coordinate based on the camera's view direction. This creates a true perspective correct depth to the material. The occlusion part also means that parts of the height map can occlude other parts which helps to increase the depth. Lastly with self shadowing, more artificial depth is added to the material. Parallax occlusion mapping however is very expensive and generally shouldn't be used everywhere.

The main problem with parallax occlusion mapping is that at oblique angles the ray tracing is often not precise enough to retrieve the correct height map. As you can in the image below, at oblique angles it is easy to have ray tracing miss the correct depth, or find the incorrect depth. This can be resolved by increasing the number of depth passes or by decreasing the height scale. Large height scale also cause the same problem.

"

Dispalcement maps dont have the oblique limitation and steep angles dont represent a probelm either, this and the explanation about the internal occlusion and the shadows that respect the bumpy areas of the surfaces, is why dispalcement map makes more sense for the rendering of the terrain, the mountains and rocks, and also nvidia concurs

http://www.nvidia.co...ssellation.html

"

DirectX 11 Tessellation—what it is and why it matters

A displacement map is a texture that stores height information. When applied to a surface, it allows vertices on the surface to be shifted up or down based on the height information. For example, the graphics artist can take a slab of marble and shift the vertices to form a carving. Another popular technique is to apply displacement maps over terrain to carve out craters, canyons, and peaks.

"

As for tesselation?

Well, we can see that the terrain and the rocks have pretty good amount of small fine vertices pieces in the ground and the rocksproviding a good level of detail, and thats pretty much the work of tesselation; plus, there would be no benefit of using displacement without tesselation cause both need one and the other

http://www.nvidia.co...ssellation.html

"

DirectX 11 Tessellation—what it is and why it matters

Like tessellation, displacement mapping has been around for a long time, but until recently, it has never really caught on. The reason is that for displacement mapping to be effective, the surface must be made up of a large number of vertices. To take the example of the marble carving—if the marble block were made up of eight vertices, no amount of relative displacement between them can produce the relief of a dragon. A detailed relief can be formed only if there are sufficient vertices in the base mesh to depict the new shape. In essence—displacement mapping needs tessellation, and vice versa.

With DirectX 11, tessellation and displacement mapping finally come together in a happy union, and already, developers on jumping on board. Popular games like Alien vs. Predator and Metro 2033 use tessellation to produce smooth-looking models, and developers at Valve and id Software have done promising work on applying these techniques to their existing game characters.

"

it really looks great, the lod of the terrain and rocks is pretty good, the geometry looks real and not a fake simulation and also the shadows respect the siluet of the objects with the bumpy areas and the bumpy areas also display a very good amount of fine and small triangle pieces despite being lateral to our view. Seems that they have used tesselation with displacement as they mentioned some time ago that they would use it in one of their games for wii u

Dang. Almost forgot about this game.

Hope it looks good.

WW know on a technical level, it will be impressive under the hood.

But it is possible to do everything right and "miss" the boat based in public perception of what art style looks nice.

You look at Project Cars for example and it looks unbelievable.

But the art style is realistic. So it's a certain target.

Fast racing is going for a sci if futuristic look with high res sharp textures.

There is going to be a priority on speed, so it goes without saying there wil need to be some trade offs.

However, this is a team that is known for maximizing what is available.

So once again highly interested. Though the shifting timetables always seem to affect enthusiasm.

oh it does, here

it loos pretty good to me, the terrain and the rocks have pretty good lod and judging by the geometry and the shadows seems they used tessellation with dispalcements here

oh god here we go again. Grab the popcorn everyone.

Yeah we seen the pic we have a topic on it.

i see, please give the link cuase I looked for the topic but didnt find it

I am little busy to chat about hardware capabilities but guess an image tells more than numbers, so here i leave something from shinen

It really looks good to me, specially the terrain and the rocks that have a pretty good level of detail, it would seem shinen is using some tesselation as they promised they would