16 replies to this topic

[Zinix]

The Obama administration will begin a three-week push to remind the American public about the benefits of the Affordable Care Act,.a White House official told CNN.

"While work continues on the website, we think it is important that proponents of health reform undertake a renewed effort to refocus the public on the benefits of the law that have already been implemented," the official said.

"To kick off the new effort, the President will hold an event at the White House to discuss the health care law's benefits already in place for millions of Americans and make the case for why we need to move forward to make sure the law is a success."

 

http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_t2

 

 

This should be scrapped already, it was doomed when they couldn't get the website to work properly. 

[Keviin]

European here. Wtf  is  an Obamacare even? Everyone  bashes it..

Edited by Keviin, 03 December 2013 - 04:00 AM.

[Nollog]

European here. Wtf  is  an Obamacare even? Everyone  bashes it..

It's subsidized healthcare for the people who can't afford it.

[Big Boss]

I dont even want to talk about this anymore.

Edited by Big Boss, 03 December 2013 - 07:53 PM.

[Lupaie]

It's subsidized healthcare for the people who can't afford it.

In our country this has been forever. I don't understand the Americans that don't want it. It should be a truly collective, civilized and human thing. But indeed, it should be for everyone, by everyone. When you or your loved ones become ill, you would not have to worry about doctor costs too.

Edited by Lupaie, 03 December 2013 - 08:24 AM.

[Lightning_Ninja]

Unfortunately, when you give people something for nothing, they will take advantage of it to its fullest extent.  While there are some people for whom this is a godsend, there are many more who are probably going to abuse it.  Then there's the trouble of companies cutting costs by reducing their healthcare benefits so people will use Obamacare instead of them.  It really should have been better discussed and anlyzed before it was put into effect.  People always look at the benefits of programs, and never at the consequences it might have.

[KeptMyWiiUAndLeftTheForums]

Unfortunately, when you give people something for nothing, they will take advantage of it to its fullest extent.  While there are some people for whom this is a godsend, there are many more who are probably going to abuse it.  Then there's the trouble of companies cutting costs by reducing their healthcare benefits so people will use Obamacare instead of them.  It really should have been better discussed and anlyzed before it was put into effect.  People always look at the benefits of programs, and never at the consequences it might have.

 

That's not true at all. People all over the developed world have healthcare, and no one cares. The ONLY people who seem to think this doesn't work, despite it actually working  all over the world are the americans. there are barely any ways you can even abuse a healthcare systems, and the good it would do would WAAAYY outweigh the bad. 

http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_t2

 

 

This should be scrapped already, it was doomed when they couldn't get the website to work properly. 

 

Oncee again: Bad web design =/= failure of healthcare. Where does that logic even come from? >.<

It doesnt work because the only people who sign up for it are the ones who need it, and not the ones who would pay for them.
Most people who do sign up usually end up having to pay more than they used to.

 

That is quite literally wht the point of Obamacare is... I don't even....

And pay more than nothing for the care they don't have because it costs them to much...?

 

I've tried to remain (semi) neutral on what you uys say about this too long. you guys are being pretty dang illogical.

[Arioch]

Implying a changed system takes effect immediately and flawlessly while people are doing everything in their power to prevent or stop it.

 

Seeing as I'm someone with a preexisting condition, in college, and not from some rich family, you can guess what I'll already have to say about universal healthcare.

[Lightning_Ninja]

That's not true at all. People all over the developed world have healthcare, and no one cares. The ONLY people who seem to think this doesn't work, despite it actually working  all over the world are the americans. there are barely any ways you can even abuse a healthcare systems, and the good it would do would WAAAYY outweigh the bad. 

 

 

Perhaps I should re-phrase what I said.  When you give an american something for nothing, they will take advantage of it to its fullest extent.  The example I hear most often is how well it works in Canada, and as far as I can tell, the average canadian is a much better person than the average american. 

 

For example, there were the umeployment system changes in the US a while back.  My dad is a self employed farmer along with my uncle.  We have many jobs that need help doing around the farm, but we can't afford to pay people above minimum wage.  We have workers come to us and say, "I'll only work so many hours in a week.  If I make too much, I'll lose my unemployment check."  At one time, we had three different people working during the week for a job that one person could have done full time.  This means we have to bother with payroll and taxes for three different people.

 

Another case is we had a guy working for us, and we told him to take a day off and be back the day after, as we did not have any work for him until that day.  Even though it was only going to be one day between work, he immediately went and filed for unemployment to get a check.  He did that every time we didn't have him work for a day.  How much money you wanna bet he drained that he neither needed nor deserved?  And of course the government gets the bill, the same government that's already well into debt.

 

Now of course, minimum wage farm work is not exactly the best job in the world, but we can't pay better than minimum wage.  Most of our workers have ended up being immigrant workers since they actually stick around.  Even though we pay mnimum wage, we still haven't made any money on one of the things we grow for 5 years, and thats the thing that requires 99% of our workers.  As a result, we'll stop growing that crop, putting all of those people out of a job. 

 

And now I hear that Obama wants to raise minimum wage even more.  That might have put us under if we still grew that crop.  I'm sure there are plenty of small businesses that are going to be hurt pretty badly should that happen.  Then there's the effects of raising minimum wage on the price of goods, etc.

 

Maybe these systems work in other countries, but they really don't work here I'm afraid.  It would be nice if they did I suppose.

 

I'm not saying there aren't people this would greatly help, but there are a lot more who will abuse it. 

Edited by Lightning_Ninja, 03 December 2013 - 11:46 AM.

[Big Boss]

That is quite literally wht the point of Obamacare is... I don't even....

 

 

And pay more than nothing for the care they don't have because it costs them to much...?

 

Yes, that is the point of obamacare... but it's not working. 

 

I meant that it was raising insurance premiums by pretty substantial amounts.

[KeptMyWiiUAndLeftTheForums]

Perhaps I should re-phrase what I said.  When you give an american something for nothing, they will take advantage of it to its fullest extent.  The example I hear most often is how well it works in Canada, and as far as I can tell, the average canadian is a much better person than the average american. 

 

For example, there were the umeployment system changes in the US a while back.  My dad is a self employed farmer along with my uncle.  We have many jobs that need help doing around the farm, but we can't afford to pay people above minimum wage.  We have workers come to us and say, "I'll only work so many hours in a week.  If I make too much, I'll lose my unemployment check."  At one time, we had three different people working during the week for a job that one person could have done full time.  This means we have to bother with payroll and taxes for three different people.

 

Another case is we had a guy working for us, and we told him to take a day off and be back the day after, as we did not have any work for him until that day.  Even though it was only going to be one day between work, he immediately went and filed for unemployment to get a check.  He did that every time we didn't have him work for a day.  How much money you wanna bet he drained that he neither needed nor deserved?  And of course the government gets the bill, the same government that's already well into debt.

 

Now of course, minimum wage farm work is not exactly the best job in the world, but we can't pay better than minimum wage.  Most of our workers have ended up being immigrant workers since they actually stick around.  Even though we pay mnimum wage, we still haven't made any money on one of the things we grow for 5 years, and thats the thing that requires 99% of our workers.  As a result, we'll stop growing that crop, putting all of those people out of a job. 

 

And now I hear that Obama wants to raise minimum wage even more.  That might have put us under if we still grew that crop.  I'm sure there are plenty of small businesses that are going to be hurt pretty badly should that happen.  Then there's the effects of raising minimum wage on the price of goods, etc.

 

Maybe these systems work in other countries, but they really don't work here I'm afraid.  It would be nice if they did I suppose.

 

I'm not saying there aren't people this would greatly help, but there are a lot more who will abuse it. 

 

You're talking about minimum wage which is a whole different issue.

like I said, even if people abuse, what are they gonna do? Get drugs every time they're sick? Oh, the horror!

the only thing I can thing of is people getting prescriptions when they don't need them to get high, and like I said, helping tens of thousands of people get the care they need easily outweighs this problem.

Yes, that is the point of obamacare... but it's not working. 

 

I meant that it was raising insurance premiums by pretty substantial amounts.

 

It's not working? what part of the system isn't working exactly? Oh yeah the website. the bucking website why in the heck do you think that means the whole system will fail. You know, some counties had universal healthcare BEFORE the internet and (holy crap) it works! By your logic, it should have failed before it started.

 

I couldn't live in america.

I would just frinking strangle so many people XD

[Lightning_Ninja]

You're talking about minimum wage which is a whole different issue.

like I said, even if people abuse, what are they gonna do? Get drugs every time they're sick? Oh, the horror!

the only thing I can thing of is people getting prescriptions when they don't need them to get high, and like I said, helping tens of thousands of people get the care they need easily outweighs this problem.

 

It's not working? what part of the system isn't working exactly? Oh yeah the website. the bucking website why in the heck do you think that means the whole system will fail. You know, some counties had universal healthcare BEFORE the internet and (holy crap) it works! By your logic, it should have failed before it started.

 

I couldn't live in america.

I would just frinking strangle so many people XD

Perhaps I should try explaining another way, with more detail.

 

If this law works the same way as most laws of its kind and how I have heard it works, it operates on thresholds of income.  Below a certain income, you get it for free, and as your income increases above it, you pay more in certain levels.  Let's create a model on how this operates based on income and how much you pay.

 

Income range/year                           Cost of care/year

<$10,000                                                   $0

$10,000-20,000                                      $2000

$20,000-30,000                                      $3000

$30,000-40,000                                      $4000

 

This is of course a simplified model, but I think it will get my point across.  I don't know the exact numbers the system works on, but then again I'm not sure those are published anywhere for free viewing.

 

The government set the system up like this based on current incomes, and based on those numbers and the number of people at each value, it should operate fine.

 

For those who make $10,000-11,999, they are making less than those who make $8,001-10,000 respectively.  They'll see that and decide that they will take home more money if they work less, while still getting the same coverage.  These people will reduce their hours or take a worse paying job.  Of course not all those people will do it, maybe 40 %.  However, that same logic must be applied to all the levels above it.  This will cut out a lot of money that is used to run the system.  Of course, you can't rely on the filthy rich to pay for it.  Those people can afford much better healthcare and do not put anything into this system, taking that cash flow out of the equation.

 

Of course the system would be better designed than the model I have (at least it had better be) but there will still be people doing less to get relatively more.  Now so long as the amount of money going in is more than the amount being used, it will work.  But should it not, the system will collapse in on itself, and even those who don't abuse it will be screwed.  There's also the issue that healthcare resources are not infinite.  We don't have unlimited doctors.  People might use this free healthcare to go in and get things that they don't need, leaving those who need it to wait until the next shipment gets in, or wait extra long to see a doctor.

 

You said that minimum wage is a different issue, but I'm afraid these issues don't operate in a vacuum.  Combining the healthcare problems with both the unemployment issue and the minimum wage issue, and there are going to be a lot of people not working because they get a free check every month plus free healthcare.  What reason do they have to work hard?

 

There is still more that this would affect.  This system encourages laziness.  Now we have a bunch of able bodied people not working.  This would decrease the production of goods, driving up their cost.  This affects everybody, especially those who are in the worst spot and cannot afford much.  What's going to happen to the country?  Businesses will leave or be shut down, further screwing up the problem.  The businesses that stay will get a monopoly on things.  Obviously that isn't going to help.  Something will have to change or things will get worse.

 

Of course things won't happen overnight, but any system that doesn't account for human greed and laziness is doomed to fail.  This is why communism continually crumbles.  It assumes that enough people will remain altruistic and work hard, but if they don't see a reward for all that hard work, they won't work.

 

I hope that explained what I'm getting at better.  If there's something about the system I don't know that makes it significantly different from the model proposed, let me know and I'll change it to reflect that.

[Lupaie]

I guess I'll never understand Americans. Exactly the same as with weapons. I don't understand why they are allowed to carry guns. The same not logic is that its the only way to protect them selves from violence. .... Isn't it just the other way around? This works well in almost the entired world...but in America there is much more violence... Duh.. If everyone can have a gun

[Lightning_Ninja]

I guess I'll never understand Americans. Exactly the same as with weapons. I don't understand why they are allowed to carry guns. The same not logic is that its the only way to protect them selves from violence. .... Isn't it just the other way around? This works well in almost the entired world...but in America there is much more violence... Duh.. If everyone can have a gun

The best argument I've heard is that if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them.  Though unless you stop producing guns entirely, the black market will find a way to get them to SOME people who shouldn't.  Personally I think we just need to make the conditions required to own a gun stricter.  You hear plenty of stories of some guy who is mentally unstable walking into a store, buying one, and walking out without any trouble.  Or there's some guy who leaves his out in the open or unlocked where other people can get at it like their children.  There's a startling lack of irresponsibility with them. 

 

Conversely, I have an uncle who owns a few guns which he uses to go hunting every year.  However, he keeps them under tight lock when he is not using them with no exceptions.  He's never had a problem.  It would be nice if there was a much more difficult process to get them, so only responsible people can get them legally.  But of course, heaven forbid congress look at that issue in any other way besides "all the guns vs. no guns"

[Lupaie]

Hun

 

The best argument I've heard is that if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them.  Though unless you stop producing guns entirely, the black market will find a way to get them to SOME people who shouldn't.  Personally I think we just need to make the conditions required to own a gun stricter.  You hear plenty of stories of some guy who is mentally unstable walking into a store, buying one, and walking out without any trouble.  Or there's some guy who leaves his out in the open or unlocked where other people can get at it like their children.  There's a startling lack of irresponsibility with them. 

 

Conversely, I have an uncle who owns a few guns which he uses to go hunting every year.  However, he keeps them under tight lock when he is not using them with no exceptions.  He's never had a problem.  It would be nice if there was a much more difficult process to get them, so only responsible people can get them legally.  But of course, heaven forbid congress look at that issue in any other way besides "all the guns vs. no guns"

Hunting guns and guns for sports are legitiem in The Netherlands too, but you be must tested, and member of a group, at adult age and you need to apply for a license too. Which is a hassle.

 

Sure, criminals will always find ways to get their hands on weapons, yet starting wannabe gangsters will find it much harder to find it, let alone use it. Really, that "if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them" is so American, I just don't understand why it doesn't apply in the rest of the World. If everyone in my street would have a gun, including me...some old fashioned fist fights would have resulted in one of the weaker residents grabbing guns. And then the spiral would start. You simply need to stop allowing it to end that downwards spiral and concentrate on which groups will be pardoned.  

Edited by Lupaie, 04 December 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[Lightning_Ninja]

Hun

 

Hunting guns and guns for sports are legitiem in The Netherlands too, but you be must tested, and member of a group, at adult age and you need to apply for a license too. Which is a hassle.

 

Sure, criminals will always find ways to get their hands on weapons, yet starting wannabe gangsters will find it much harder to find it, let alone use it. Really, that "if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them" is so American, I just don't understand why it doesn't apply in the rest of the World. If everyone in my street would have a gun, including me...some old fashioned fist fights would have resulted in one of the weaker residents grabbing guns. And then the spiral would start. You simply need to stop allowing it to end that downwards spiral and concentrate on which groups will be pardoned.  

It does apply to the rest of the world, its just that, as you showed is the case in the Netherlands, the laws regarding guns are a bit stricter and probably better enforced so as to make sure the more responsible people get them.  There are places in the US that don't necessarily ask for the requirements upon purchase, and therein lies the problem in my opinion.  What I was getting at was that if we make sure only responsible people get them, those fist fights wouldn't escalate into guns, because those people probably wouldn't be conisdered responsible.  This is a bit idealized and might be making some assumptions, but I digress. 

 

I don't think we are quite in disagreement on this issue, and this is slightly off topic anyway, so I'll stop now.

[Big Boss]

You're talking about minimum wage which is a whole different issue.

like I said, even if people abuse, what are they gonna do? Get drugs every time they're sick? Oh, the horror!

the only thing I can thing of is people getting prescriptions when they don't need them to get high, and like I said, helping tens of thousands of people get the care they need easily outweighs this problem.

 

It's not working? what part of the system isn't working exactly? Oh yeah the website. the bucking website why in the heck do you think that means the whole system will fail. You know, some counties had universal healthcare BEFORE the internet and (holy crap) it works! By your logic, it should have failed before it started.

 

I couldn't live in america.

I would just frinking strangle so many people XD

 

Even if the website worked, the only people signing up for insurance would be the ones who need it. They wouldn't get it, because other people wont sign up to pay for them, as their premiums would increase by a ludicrous amount.

 

So only the people who need it are signing up. 

 

That's why it's not working.