Goodtwin

Difference being, PS2 excelled at having third party games.

this

IGN

The challenges facing Nintendo's Wii U are many, to the extent that the publisher must start to prioritize its efforts to revive the stalled momentum of the system. One result of this prioritization is how Nintendo thinks about third party development. The publisher knows it needs the diversity and strength that aggressive third party support can bring, but also understands that it can't force business partners to a system that isn't selling. First it needs to do its own part.

"What we need to do is regain the momentum of the Wii U in the marketplace and establish successful examples of third-party Wii U software," Nintendo global president Satoru Iwata told me. "Our focus is, first of all, to regain the momentum of the Wii U towards the end of this year, and then we’ll try to establish successful third-party Wii U software titles. I believe in the importance of third-party support for Nintendo platforms. I’m very willing to change the current situation."

Nintendo of America (NOA) president Reggie Fils-Aime echoes the views of his boss, noting that similar views were held just ahead of launch. What radically shifted third party support then was various publishers seeing reactions to Nintendo's own software, and realizing they might have opportunities of their own. "I’ve had conversations with a number of the publishers," Fils-Aime said. "As they see what we’re doing and the commitment we have with Mario, Donkey Kong, Zelda… As we have behind-the-scenes conversations about what’s further in development and what’s coming down, the decisions around the next lineup of development and where they’re going to put their development dollars are starting to shift."

 

Fils-Aime wouldn't get into many specifics regarding major third party publishers, though he did attempt to clarify EA's level of support, saying "they do have projects in development... just nothing coming out this fall." Still, the NOA executive did stress that he understands why third parties are waiting, and why support has been anemic thus far.

"Looking at this through the prism of a business decision, if I’m a third-party publisher, what I want is that I want a large, diverse installed base to invest in my development and be able to monetize against that large installed base," Fils-Aime said. "That’s why, from a Nintendo first-party perspective, we have to drive the installed base. We need a diverse group of consumers. Not just core, not just casual, but a broad, diverse group of consumers within that installed base, so that whether you’re Ubi with Assassin’s Creed or with Just Dance, you’re feeling confident that your game is going to find a home. You’ll be able to monetize your development."

It's clear that Nintendo's two lead businessmen clearly understand the situation before them. Their internal teams have not delivered software to push Wii U systems. Though third party support could loosely be defined as a circular chicken-and-egg situation (software sells systems which in term sell software), that premise doesn't exist unless Nintendo itself defines what makes its console, particularly one that attempts to stay outside traditional industry boundaries, worthwhile. And that hasn't happened yet.

Despite the fact that Nintendo knows that it is more or less on its own when it comes to reviving Wii U's momentum, the publisher doesn't view finding third party support as a futile effort. Iwata described a scenario to me which clearly illustrates the necessary role of third party support. Essentially it comes down to this - Nintendo doesn't know how to do everything, and it simply can't do everything.

 

"If we had an infinite amount of resources, development resources, we might be able to satisfy any and all needs of game players and non-game players all over the world. But our resources are always limited," Iwata said. "The fact of the matter is that there are some areas of game creation that Nintendo is very good at, but there are other things that Nintendo is not very good at. There are huge numbers of fans of Nintendo software, but at the same time, those types of players still sometimes want to play something else on our platform. Because of that, we always need third parties to support us, in order to make our platform complete."

Iwata's description went on to note that third parties can also provide valuable software when Nintendo's own teams need more development time. That certainly would have been welcome in Wii U's initial six months on the market, a half year more defined by a lack of new software than anything else.

One common reaction from Nintendo fans, especially in the face of third party support disappearing or being delayed, is questioning why Nintendo doesn't do more to push third party support. Why let Rayman Legends slip away? Why not financially support EA development? According to Fils-Aime, those conversations are happening constantly. "We have ongoing conversations with publishers about how to support them, how to support their development, how as best as we can to assure that their games are going to do well on our platform," Fils-Aime said. "In the end, independent publishers need to decide what’s going to be best for their companies." In the case of Wii U, with a low install base and a few months before sales will likely receive a much-needed boost, it's clear that Nintendo has its work cut out. Fils-Aime noted that third parties supporting Wii and DS did "exceptionally well financially."

 

Has Nintendo ever worked this hard to get devs on board before?

If the wii U can do this:



And the wii U can do this



I'm pretty sure the wii U could do this.

When did they say the Wii U can't run it? They just said it doesn't support DirectX 11 (which is silly) so they can't put it on there.

He does answer to the board of directors, and the consumer buying the product is what the board of directors use to evaluate Mr. Iwata's performance.  Nintendo's earnings for the past few years have been historic lows for Nintendo, they wont sit idle forever waiting for Iwata's master plan to come together.  The consumer ultimately dictates the success of any company, so in an indirect way, he actually does have to care what the consumer thinks.  I already own a Wii U with over 10 games, so he doesnt need to convince me that the Wii U is a good product, but the mass market just doesnt see it yet.  He has to come up with a way to convince the mass audience that the Wii U is a product worth purchasing.  Thats why I think its somewhat irrelevant what Sony and Microsoft are doing, the Wii U and PS4 are far from being interchangable products.  They offer very different products and software offerings, so just because you own a PS4 doesnt mean that the Wii U doesnt appeal to you, the software offering on the Wii U could easily justify the purchase of another console, especially as the price of hardware comes down. 

Correct, but he doesn't detail his plans to the public, he details his plans to the board.  Ultimately people buying the product is what is going to save his job, but what he intends to do, every minute detail, is definitely going to be spelled out to them though we have to wait and let it happen.

please share this- thank you 3Dude, for clearing these false claims up.

 

Sadly this another thread turned to garbage by staunch defenders of Nintendo who don't have a fair bone in their body.
 
It's clear the wii u is powerful enough for the games of the type Nintendo produce and the wii u is a gpu-centric console so ideal and the performance of wii u games at E3 is entirely expected for a console that has a more modern gpu that is slightly more powerful than 360/PS3. Games written with its specification in mind will look better than 360/PS3.


At least youve given up that much.



Cartoon graphics do not push the hardware.

This is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have ever heard you say.



Take the wii for example Mario Galaxy is visually very nice but the few fps games produced for wii look utterly terrible that are trying to show the real world.

 

Corruption looked fantantistic. Production values are far more important to a games visuals than system power. Always have been always will be.


The ps4 gpu is 1800gflops compared to 350gflops approx for wii u. Clearly in the huge increase of memory and gpu performance the ps4 will be able to produce graphics far beyond wii u in realism. Cartoon graphics may not be as dramatic a difference but it really depends on the game engine.

First off Nobody knows the flop outpout of latte, and todays e3 showing with bayo2 and x has made many of them question what they previously thought, as its far outside the realm of what ps360 can produce. But even going with your loaded numbers, that puts the flop output at just 5x the wii u, smack in the ballpark of what weve been telling you this whole time. So, youve got nothing here.


We don't know the details of Monolith's game but we do know they have a reputation for extracting full performance out of the wii. We don't know how much of the movie sequences shown were pre-rendered or using the game engine. For actual gameplay we don't know the complexity of the engine or have seen the full graphics up close. This really was the only game that could claim to be beyond current-gen but we really don't have the full details. It looks a great game though although that said Xenoblade Chronicles wasn't the huge hit people were expecting with far less than 1 million copies sold world wide and that was for a console that had sold 100 million.


WOW, X is really shaking your narrative. There was nothing in X that was pre rendered.... You cant tell how to tell the difference can you? Sorry punk, thats all wii u there. And yeah, weve seen the graphics up close. You can see every vein and pore on the creatures in the world. Xenoblade chronicles was a smash hit bigger than Nintendo ever dreamed of... In NA, which is why we are getting X. Xenoblade chronicles was given a limited run, and its entire print was sold out in months, leaving people trying to buy it off of ebay for 200 bucks to this day.




There is a good unbiased article here about AMD Jaguar.
 
http://www.anandtech...4-kabini-temash
 
There is a good quote in the conclusion;
 
Jaguar is presently without competition. Intel’s current 32nm Saltwell Atom core is outdated, and nothing from ARM is quick enough. It’s no wonder that both Microsoft and Sony elected to use Jaguar as the base for their next-generation console SoCs, there simply isn’t a better option today. As Intel transitions to its 22nm Silvermont architecture however Jaguar will finally get some competition. For the next few months though, AMD will enjoy a position it hasn’t had in years: a CPU performance advantage.


Uh, yeah, those are mobile/tablet processors dude. Not that impressive to be beating. The I5 in the computer I got for my wife for 350 destroys those. Including jaguar. Its not very impressive, unless you are using a tablet.


Clearly though not that great a chip for any single threaded software on PC but in the PS4/Xbone environment its clear fully multi-threading will be utilised.
 

Simd/multithreading are heavily used in tablet microarchitectures. Powerful single thread performance requires processors that are too large, too hot, and require too big of caches for mobile. Although, Since Im already improving your argument for you  I might as well continue. Jaguar had a performance breakthrough of around 10-15% over bobcat single thread performance by providing increased edram caches... they are 1/2 and 1/4 of the size of the ones in wii u's espresso.


It's just so utterly mad and stupid to compare a console with 1GB of memory (for games), a slightly enhanced gpu and a weak cpu to ps4 which is hugely more powerful.

It still hasnt hit home yet that ps4 and espresso are using tablet cpu's has it? And no. its not 'madness' to think the games of the lesser powered system arent hopelessly behind, its pretty standard practice to have this kind of a difference in power between systems. Its as ordinary as xbox vs ps2. The only one that wasnt ordinary, was the wii, which was was 20x+ behind the 360/ps3.

The argument of diminshing returns again is another false argument from those with huge bias. They are basically trying to say the wii u isn't as weak as you think and you don't need that extra power anyway so the wii u is fine.


Diminishing returns isnt an argument, and its hilarious to hear someone try and argue that its false, its a universal law.

"The law of diminishing returns (also law of diminishing marginal returns or law of increasing relative cost) states that in all productive processes, adding more of one factor of production, while holding all others constant ("ceteris paribus"), will at some point yield lower per-unit returns.[1] The law of diminishing returns does not imply that adding more of a factor will decrease the total production, a condition known as negative returns, though in fact this is common."

THe simple fact of the matter is, you can only increase graphics so much before people cant really tell the difference and you are only wasting money. Its already happening with systems as weak as the 3ds and vita. I posted a perfectly good example with crysis and crysis 3.


The reality is the ps4 will have many games that the wii u simply isn't capable of, just like the PS3 and 360 had games the wii wasn't capable of.

Not quite. The reality is the ps4 should be capable of many games the wii u is not because its around 5x more powerful. However, that requires people to pioneer and create new things with that hardware that cant be done anywhere else, and as is very obvious by what ps4 and xbone has shown off, they have no intention whatsoever to make anything besides the same cookie cutter fps's and cinematic action games with a fresh coat of paint. They are even degrading gameplay to even LESS interactive levels, if you look at ryse, the entire game consists of nothing but qte's... WHICH YOU CAN NOT LOSE because, and I quote 'we didnt want the gamer to feel frusterated'.


I would love to say otherwise but the wii u is current gen performance overall. That doesn't mean it is not capable of superior graphics, it means as a package including its cpu performance it is in the same area and this is how wii u games perform overall.


Oooh, so sorry. If only you knew what you were talking about. See, bayonetta 2's 60 frames per second gameplay demo took place in a massive city, around the same size as the one shown in the killzone 4 demo, except, instead of slowly flying way above the city where you dont have to worry about going into detail, its zooming in between the buildings of the city at break neck speed.

See, Bayonetta 1 and god of war cant do this, because they dont have the gpu OR CPU POWER. Thats why those games on the ps3560 are in tiny environments with non interactive back drops that would look really poopy if you were to get up close to them, because they only look good at a specified distance from the camera. And most importantly , a fixed camera. Ascensions final battle attempts to do something similar, but takes place on an ocean, with nothing in it, a tiny handful of enemies, and moving incredibly slowly. The difference in power required to do what ascenision did, and what bayonetta 2 is doing at twice the frame rate is not a minor thing. Its pretty huge, and not remotely close to possible  on a 'cpu weaker than ps360'.

THe reason they cant do what bayonetta 2 does, aside from not having the gpu power to render the geometry, is because they dont have the cpu power to cull the backside faces (Thats right! Culling is a cpu task), at the speed bayonetta 2 tears through the city, and at 60 frames per sedond, twice (often over twice) the frame rate of either bayonetta 1 or god of war 3/ascension.


However this is really a mute argument anyway because the wii u simply won't be getting the games that push the boundaries of console gaming, it's not getting those games because they won't be released on wii u because of many reasons.


So.... why is the wiiu the only system to show off said type game that pushes something that hasnt been done before yet? It IS, the only game that has been stated as being a COMPLETELY SEAMLESS OPEN WORLD GAME. No loading screens, not for towns, not for buildings, not for level changes, nowhere.



The wii u is a fantastic console but its not the right choice at all if you want modern fps experiences and other major multiformat titles of the same quality as ps4 or xbone. It is not competitive in that area at all. Such games even if released on wii u may even struggle to match ps3 or 360 versions as has been the case for the majority of games previously and there is absolutely no reasons why it won't continue that way.


Modern fps gaming hasnt changed since Xbox. Nothing new is happening guy. There has been 'fish ai' since mario 64.
And YEAH, its pretty fricking obvious those ports were garbage now. There is like, no denying that anymore.



The upcoming wii u games look great and I'm looking forward to getting them but this whole argument that the wii u is competitive with ps4 or even xbone on a performance level is pure rubbish with no basis in reality. The PS3 and Xbox 360 have as much a right to claim they are competitive with PS4 and Xbone as wii u has. Let's face it most major titles are being cross developed on 360, PS3, PS4 and xbone anyway so there will be versions for all those consoles to buy where as the wii u won't be getting most of those titles.


What is this, your first generation change? There are always cross gen games, and they almost always suck. And nintendo gets left out of third party titles all the time, even when it has the more powerful hardware. Just look at all the ps2/xbox games the cube got cut out of. Its not about system power, it never has been.

If the wii u had sold well so it got versions of multi-format games no doubt we would have many months ahead analysing wii u versions and seeing how they compare but that's not happening anyway. There are only a few major projects still live and most of the other wii u titles that aren't coming from Nintendo or its first parties are looking fairly minor.


Its been out 6 months guy. Since when have NIntendo platforms EVER been a place for major western third parties anyway? They avoid them like the plauge no matter how powerful they are.

 

All I know is the excuses are over. I've seen Bayo2 I know the machine is far more capable than we have been lead to believe. If Ubisoft(splinter cell, AC4,and watchdogs) or activision with this poirt brings that weak sauce and give us a ps360 port they can go to HE[[

I was referring to the advent of the Gameboy colour. It was a mild exaggeration, because I couldn't think of a way of saying "being able to see faces and characters as more than a small collection of blocks" didn't exactly complete the phrase. You didn't see me work the entire quote either.
 
My point is, I have grown up perfectly happy with very vague representations of people and enemies. All I ever really cared about was that it was fun. I had imagination, so I could see the collection of little red blocks as a great hero and the little pink blocks as a beautiful damsel in distress. I didn't need photorealistic imagery to do the work for me.

It's not about doing the work.

It's about something being there versus something not being there.

If visual fidelity didn't matter, no one ewouldncare whether their love interest was pretty, no one would care if blu-ray movies were more clear than DVD, no one would want 4k, and new consoles would never need to be created. And Hollywood wouldn't care about expensive visual effects.  Avatar wouldn't be such an "achievement"

Graphics matter. Tremendously.

If you re ok with little blocks of color, that's great. More power to you. But most people are not.

In fact, if graphics did'nt matter, no one would be slighting wii u launch games. No one would be concerned how wii u might hold up vs. ps4, etc.

Wii u obviously has the fun games. It also is more innovative than the competition.  But graphics matter. That's why you're seeing a seriously beefed up Mario kart and Mario with hd full on next gen graphics. It's why people are beside themselves about x.  

Graphics matter. Lets not pretend they don't just because the wii u doesn't boast better specs. Even if the graphics end up being slightly les than, it's still great. But the whole reason why the wii u is as powerful as it is is because graphics matter.

And people pay for the opportunity to have the visual treat of better graphics. It's huge.

I only saw a laggy, blurry low-res live stream of it to be honest. Can't say that impressed me, maybe I need some HD gameplay.

Get on your wii u, get on the shop, click the e3 trailers tab, watch the x trailer, make sure the video is set to high quality.

Its the best quality feed of the trailer anywhere. Nothing else comes close.

Let us be serious, everyone here is going to say that the Wii U isn't underpowered when the thing costs $299 on release and has a huge ass screen on the controller. You realise that doesn't leave much for power? I'm just saying, I'm fine with the Wii U being underpowered compared to the other next-gen consoles, and if you aren't, then you've bought the wrong system.

Jaguar is an x86 chip, meaning that it is generally the same architecture as the first x86-64 chips of 2006. Anything else would be incompatible with Windows and such unless Microsoft rewrote the os for that platform.

Espresso, while being based on the Power architecture, is under the full control of Nintendo which can tailor the chip to handle the exact workload that gaming requires. X86 on the other hand has to be more of a generic chip that handles anything from gaming to daemons/services to Microsoft Office, meaning that not all of it's processing abilities are directly usable for gaming.

So what I gather from this is that the Wii U can go neck-and-neck with the Xbox One and PlayStation 4 if developers use the hardware effectively, but will look worse than a seventh-gen console if you just shove code at it without caring. This actually reminds me of the Sega Saturn: perfectly capable of doing what its competitors do, but the unique architecture is difficult to master. It is nice to know that the Wii U is a beefy machine after all (especially considering the [comparatively] low price).

Consider if you shoved code for the wii u architecture Into the 360.  It probably wouldn't run at all.

We are talking fundamental architectural differences. You'd have to really rework the code for x1 and ps4 as well.

And no wii u ports of old games look worse, no matter how poorly the port was done. Not that I've seen anyway.

I don't know if the wii u will be neck and neck with the ps4, but it will be very competitive. Many games will likely look the same on both systems. The wii u will likely have more loading times due to the ram amount, but the processing is excellent and the ram layout very efficient.

I actually didn't know that. Where did you hear that?

Just Google AMD Jaguar performance. You'll see that they aren't super fast, and they aren't anything to brag home about.
AMD is very good at making GPU'S. They are known for budget CPU's. I bet the reason MS and Sony choose them over Intel isn't because of performance, but price.
AMD went after console market hard because they need money. This guarantee that they have cash coming in.

Jaguars kinda suck actually. But that's why there are 8 of them. Lol

I'm sure both companies would have loved to go power or intel, but amd likely gave them a sweet deal to go apu.

    I hope it turns out really good. Without specific screens, and an influx of GAF rumors, one can get a little concerned that the Wii U version would be on a completely different level. Then again, the GAF group presumes the PS4 will be ultra efficient, and the Jaguar cores will all be available to games. Oh, and that the cores are fast, lol.

Very, VERY few GAF members have a grasp on what the Jaguar cores are actually capable of, these are the same people that thought that a low clocked chip with high IPC and efficiency couldn't exist precisely until the PS4 clocks were announced.

Nintendo should give em the money, publish the game exclusive for Wii U. Would be pretty good for Nintendo, could do very well as a retail game and attract more "hardcore" to the console. 

Its lacking 7 gigs of ram.

 

Funny cause the frame rate for Mass Effect 3 is better on Wii U than Ps3.

http://hdwarriors.co...of-current-gen/

Let's discuss... Basically this is a lot of what we have been hearing. Modern GPU, Edram, and CPU caches if use correctly going to make beautiful games.

Since I know people are to lazy to click the link here is the quote.

“The Wii U GPU is several generations ahead of the current gen. It allows many things that were not possible on consoles before. If you develop for Wii U you have to take advantage of these possibilities, otherwise your performance is of course limited. Also your engine layout needs to be different. You need to take advantage of the large shared memory of the Wii U, the huge and very fast EDRAM section and the big CPU caches in the cores. Especially the workings of the CPU caches are very important to master. Otherwise you can lose a magnitude of power for cache relevant parts of your code. In the end the Wii U specs fit perfectly together and make a very efficient console when used right.”