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#21 Segata

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:55 PM

you had me until you said that.... I mean the W101 is not pushing Wii U even a little bit.

It is. Esp some of the shaders. Esp the lighting where it changes from shiny to wet to matte reflections such. It's more demanding than you think.


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#22 GAMER1984

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:34 PM

It is. Esp some of the shaders. Esp the lighting where it changes from shiny to wet to matte reflections such. It's more demanding than you think.

 

Its ok I played and beat the game I just didnt find it pushing the hardware...



#23 Segata

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 12:24 AM

Its ok I played and beat the game I just didnt find it pushing the hardware...

Well it was.  harder to see when games are super stylized.


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#24 3Dude

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:26 AM

Its ok I played and beat the game I just didnt find it pushing the hardware...


Oh yeah it is.

120+ unique, individual, non instanced, non billboarded ai, under instant player control in a twitch paced action game?

ps360 has nothing that comes remotely close.

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#25 GAMER1984

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:29 AM

Well it was.  harder to see when games are super stylized.

 

I just think most people would not pick W101 as a visual showcase for what Wii U can do. I am not down on the game it had a cool artstyle and it was enjoyable but I just dont think it was pushing the Wii U.



Oh yeah it is.

120+ unique, individual, non instanced, non billboarded ai, under instant player control in a twitch paced action game?

ps360 has nothing that comes remotely close.

 

I get it sometimes there are things we dont take into account and the wat it might be using system power... just on surface level I believe this game could run on ps360... We wont have that chance but it would be cool to see some Wii U games ported to ps360 just to see if downgrades would occur and how big they would be.



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Posted 10 April 2014 - 02:24 AM

If PS360 were to run W101 the following would certainly happen.

 

  • Resolution downgraded
  • 30fps with significant drops
  • less characters on screen

:D

 

The name of the game would then change too, The Sub Average 41


Edited by Sorceror12, 10 April 2014 - 02:26 AM.

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#27 3Dude

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 02:52 AM

I just think most people would not pick W101 as a visual showcase for what Wii U can do. I am not down on the game it had a cool artstyle and it was enjoyable but I just dont think it was pushing the Wii U.


 
I get it sometimes there are things we dont take into account and the wat it might be using system power... just on surface level I believe this game could run on ps360... We wont have that chance but it would be cool to see some Wii U games ported to ps360 just to see if downgrades would occur and how big they would be.


Tw101 gets pretty crazy, like any other platinum games it has a lot of moments of sheer spectacle, that have to be seen in motion to be believed, you uh, you dont actually have it do you?

The individual character models are probably what you are getting hung up on. Being that these models are the size of ants during actual gameplay, it makes sense that they arent overly detailed. And yeah, the individual models could easily run on ps360. Just not in the same game.

The in order cpu of ps360 couldnt handle a game with so much uniquely controlled elements. Nothing in the tw101 player side is instanced until you get over 200+ characters under control (you gain a uniformed army, or take over hundreds of enemies) and nothing at all is billboarded: ie Using the same exact model, in the same exact frame of animation hundreds of time. Essentially adds up to giving the appearence of filling the screen with hundreds or thousands of objects, when really, its only about 10 or so, instanced over and over again, this is what is done for games like dead rising. Go ahead, take a look at a dr screen. Pick a zombie. Now find his 'twins' Yeah, theres a lot of them. Same model, same clothes, in the exact same frame of animation. Keeping with the dead rising reference, of those thousands of zombies, only about 10 of them have active ai that respond to the player, typically, ai doesnt activate until it comes within a certain proximity tothe player, and often, very often, thanks to branch misses in an in order processor, it never does and the witless zombies are mowed down with out ever 'waking up'.

In contrast, enemy ai in the wonderful 101 is very complex. Enemies start out with complex attack patterns, and then change to work with other nearby enemies, they will group up to offer fire volleys, while still splitting off to flank, they can be commanded by other units, into complex attack formations, and these are just the simplest of the simple enemies. Flops cant really do this. This is branchy ai work, something 360 and ps3 suck horribly at, because of massive, massive penalties for missed branch predictions (500+ cycles a pop), and thus, has been swept under the carpet most of the generation, leaving devs ill prepared to think about advancing ai and gameplay on machines that are now capable enough to handle them... and giving us 'games' like RYSE as a result.

Past the under the skin bits of tw101, the art style couldnt really be pulled off on pos360 either. The player characters are low poly, but again, ants. The rest of the world, is ridiculously gigantic in scale, and very high fidelity, and covered with high resolution textures, especially for a game with this kind of camera. Buildings are ridiculously detailed, to the point of being almost unnecessary, the bricks are actually individually rendered instead of a normal map, the cracks in the sidewalk are actually polygons instead of a texture, the writing on most signs, is actually polygons instead of textures, window frames are actually polygons instead of textures, individual leaves on trees are polygons and dense, instead of layered sprites, giving the tw101 an incredibly crisp clean look to its style. The large scale enemies, are ridiculously high in polygons, featuring many perfectly round parts, usually gigantic laser gunbarrels, and are highly destructable, exposing layers of intricately designed models.

Its not something you can point at 1 obvious part of and go, 'lol that looks easy to do'.

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#28 GAMER1984

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 03:10 AM

Tw101 gets pretty crazy, like any other platinum games it has a lot of moments of sheer spectacle, that have to be seen in motion to be believed, you uh, you dont actually have it do you?

The individual character models are probably what you are getting hung up on. Being that these models are the size of ants during actual gameplay, it makes sense that they arent overly detailed. And yeah, the individual models could easily run on ps360. Just not in the same game.

The in order cpu of ps360 couldnt handle a game with so much uniquely controlled elements. Nothing in the tw101 player side is instanced until you get over 200+ characters under control (you gain a uniformed army, or take over hundreds of enemies) and nothing at all is billboarded: ie Using the same exact model, in the same exact frame of animation hundreds of time. Essentially adds up to giving the appearence of filling the screen with hundreds or thousands of objects, when really, its only about 10 or so, instanced over and over again, this is what is done for games like dead rising. Go ahead, take a look at a dr screen. Pick a zombie. Now find his 'twins' Yeah, theres a lot of them. Same model, same clothes, in the exact same frame of animation. Keeping with the dead rising reference, of those thousands of zombies, only about 10 of them have active ai that respond to the player, typically, ai doesnt activate until it comes within a certain proximity tothe player, and often, very often, thanks to branch misses in an in order processor, it never does and the witless zombies are mowed down with out ever 'waking up'.

In contrast, enemy ai in the wonderful 101 is very complex. Enemies start out with complex attack patterns, and then change to work with other nearby enemies, they will group up to offer fire volleys, while still splitting off to flank, they can be commanded by other units, into complex attack formations, and these are just the simplest of the simple enemies. Flops cant really do this. This is branchy ai work, something 360 and ps3 suck horribly at, because of massive, massive penalties for missed branch predictions (500+ cycles a pop), and thus, has been swept under the carpet most of the generation, leaving devs ill prepared to think about advancing ai and gameplay on machines that are now capable enough to handle them... and giving us 'games' like RYSE as a result.

Past the under the skin bits of tw101, the art style couldnt really be pulled off on pos360 either. The player characters are low poly, but again, ants. The rest of the world, is ridiculously gigantic in scale, and very high fidelity, and covered with high resolution textures, especially for a game with this kind of camera. Buildings are ridiculously detailed, to the point of being almost unnecessary, the bricks are actually individually rendered instead of a normal map, the cracks in the sidewalk are actually polygons instead of a texture, the writing on most signs, is actually polygons instead of textures, window frames are actually polygons instead of textures, individual leaves on trees are polygons and dense, instead of layered sprites, giving the tw101 an incredibly crisp clean look to its style. The large scale enemies, are ridiculously high in polygons, featuring many perfectly round parts, usually gigantic laser gunbarrels, and are highly destructable, exposing layers of intricately designed models.

Its not something you can point at 1 obvious part of and go, 'lol that looks easy to do'.

 

yes but played it when it was released beat it and never touched it again. Would it hurt a dev any dev to go into detail about what makes Wii U great from a tech standpoint? I mean I know we have Shin'en but it would be better if it was a bigger 3rd party AAA type dev. Looking at Mario Kart I have no question the Wii U is more than a little bit more powerful than ps360. I am not a graphics whore but I would love to hear some positive stuff from devs about Wii U technical side it seems like the difference between Wii U and ps360 just is not worth it for devs to mention what Wii U can do. I recently was messaging with the stick it to the man dev and they didnt want to talk specs. they said the game is running 720p 30 fps and I believe 1080p ad 60fps on ps4 but you should hear how they gloat about the ps4 version being "next gen" when it comes to Wii U version its like oh it has good gamepad features.  I just really wonder how many devs are really trying to push the Wii U. is there something wrong with wanting devs to push the system?



#29 NintendoReport

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 03:41 AM

Tw101 gets pretty crazy, like any other platinum games it has a lot of moments of sheer spectacle, that have to be seen in motion to be believed, you uh, you dont actually have it do you?

The individual character models are probably what you are getting hung up on. Being that these models are the size of ants during actual gameplay, it makes sense that they arent overly detailed. And yeah, the individual models could easily run on ps360. Just not in the same game.

The in order cpu of ps360 couldnt handle a game with so much uniquely controlled elements. Nothing in the tw101 player side is instanced until you get over 200+ characters under control (you gain a uniformed army, or take over hundreds of enemies) and nothing at all is billboarded: ie Using the same exact model, in the same exact frame of animation hundreds of time. Essentially adds up to giving the appearence of filling the screen with hundreds or thousands of objects, when really, its only about 10 or so, instanced over and over again, this is what is done for games like dead rising. Go ahead, take a look at a dr screen. Pick a zombie. Now find his 'twins' Yeah, theres a lot of them. Same model, same clothes, in the exact same frame of animation. Keeping with the dead rising reference, of those thousands of zombies, only about 10 of them have active ai that respond to the player, typically, ai doesnt activate until it comes within a certain proximity tothe player, and often, very often, thanks to branch misses in an in order processor, it never does and the witless zombies are mowed down with out ever 'waking up'.

In contrast, enemy ai in the wonderful 101 is very complex. Enemies start out with complex attack patterns, and then change to work with other nearby enemies, they will group up to offer fire volleys, while still splitting off to flank, they can be commanded by other units, into complex attack formations, and these are just the simplest of the simple enemies. Flops cant really do this. This is branchy ai work, something 360 and ps3 suck horribly at, because of massive, massive penalties for missed branch predictions (500+ cycles a pop), and thus, has been swept under the carpet most of the generation, leaving devs ill prepared to think about advancing ai and gameplay on machines that are now capable enough to handle them... and giving us 'games' like RYSE as a result.

Past the under the skin bits of tw101, the art style couldnt really be pulled off on pos360 either. The player characters are low poly, but again, ants. The rest of the world, is ridiculously gigantic in scale, and very high fidelity, and covered with high resolution textures, especially for a game with this kind of camera. Buildings are ridiculously detailed, to the point of being almost unnecessary, the bricks are actually individually rendered instead of a normal map, the cracks in the sidewalk are actually polygons instead of a texture, the writing on most signs, is actually polygons instead of textures, window frames are actually polygons instead of textures, individual leaves on trees are polygons and dense, instead of layered sprites, giving the tw101 an incredibly crisp clean look to its style. The large scale enemies, are ridiculously high in polygons, featuring many perfectly round parts, usually gigantic laser gunbarrels, and are highly destructable, exposing layers of intricately designed models.

Its not something you can point at 1 obvious part of and go, 'lol that looks easy to do'.

 

I love when you break down a game like this. Makes me want to fire that bad boy up again tonight.


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#30 3Dude

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 03:47 AM

yes but played it when it was released beat it and never touched it again. Would it hurt a dev any dev to go into detail about what makes Wii U great from a tech standpoint? I mean I know we have Shin'en but it would be better if it was a bigger 3rd party AAA type dev. Looking at Mario Kart I have no question the Wii U is more than a little bit more powerful than ps360. I am not a graphics whore but I would love to hear some positive stuff from devs about Wii U technical side it seems like the difference between Wii U and ps360 just is not worth it for devs to mention what Wii U can do. I recently was messaging with the stick it to the man dev and they didnt want to talk specs. they said the game is running 720p 30 fps and I believe 1080p ad 60fps on ps4 but you should hear how they gloat about the ps4 version being "next gen" when it comes to Wii U version its like oh it has good gamepad features.  I just really wonder how many devs are really trying to push the Wii U. is there something wrong with wanting devs to push the system?


If you have it, you should put it in some time, and use the zoom function to take a good look at how these environments are rendered. They are incredibly clean, a result of using infinately scaling polygons for most details instead of texture maps. Even zoomed in to the point of getting a close up of a single character, the game environments is smooth, clean, and detailed. Its impressive work, for any system.

As for the 'mysterious mental block' concerning most devs and all things Nintendo, in MRT training they are called 'icebergs', in psychology its a phenomena called a halo/reverse/halo/devils effect. These guys have been so thoroughly conditioned by marketing forces (likely conditioned their entire lives, starting with Segas famous psychological campaign against snes owners), they literally cant handle properly talking or thinking sbout Nintendo logically or objectively. Best case scenario, they keep it professional, and blunt, like the stick it to the man guys.... And then... Then theres THIS kind of scenario....

Past that, with how high level these engines and 'languages' are getting, you dont really NEED much REAL technical knowledge to throw together things that can be accepted as games anymore. Most of them, simply dont really know anything, except what has been imprinted on them: 'Lol Nintendo'.

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#31 NintendoReport

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 03:53 AM

It's amazing how quickly we can forget things from time to time.

Remember when we saw the trailer for Bayonetta 2 for the 1st time and when people saw that few second clip of Gomorrah many people thought it was CGI and tweeted Platinum questioning it.... only to get a response say it was IN GAME. Now we see more and more of Bayonetta 2 and some people are like, it looks OK.

bayonetta_monster.gif


I just don't get some people... and I am not referring to anyone in particular on this forum.

How soon we also forget that Wonderful 101 received a pretty substantial graphical upgrade before going gold. I recall many saying how great that game looked upon it's first reveal.

http://playeressence...ed-first-shown/

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What can we learn from Nintendo and it's developers? You can almost always count on the game looking better, being more polished along side fantastic gameplay from it's initial reveal. Look how far Mario Kart 8 has come... Trust Nintendo and hold the others accountable... cough cough Ubi.


Edited by Sorceror12, 10 April 2014 - 03:59 AM.

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#32 GAMER1984

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 03:59 AM

If you have it, you should put it in some time, and use the zoom function to take a good look at how these environments are rendered. They are incredibly clean, a result of using infinately scaling polygons for most details instead of texture maps. Even zoomed in to the point of getting a close up of a single character, the game environments is smooth, clean, and detailed. Its impressive work, for any system.

As for the 'mysterious mental block' concerning most devs and all things Nintendo, in MRT training they are called 'icebergs', in psychology its a phenomena called a halo/reverse/halo/devils effect. These guys have been so thoroughly conditioned by marketing forces (likely conditioned their entire lives, starting with Segas famous psychological campaign against snes owners), they literally cant handle properly talking or thinking sbout Nintendo logically or objectively. Best case scenario, they keep it professional, and blunt, like the stick it to the man guys.... And then... Then theres THIS kind of scenario....

Past that, with how high level these engines and 'languages' are getting, you dont really NEED much REAL technical knowledge to throw together things that can be accepted as games anymore. Most of them, simply dont really know anything, except what has been imprinted on them: 'Lol Nintendo'.

 

I agree its sad. I mean like i said i am not a graphics whore but it would be cool for a dev to talk about Wii U specs and not make it seem like the only good thing about it is the gamepad. I really think devs are just fine with getting their game running on Wii U and trying to focus on gamepad. Why the hell is it taking Shin'en so long to release screenshot/video of Fast racing Neo?



#33 3Dude

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 04:06 AM

I agree its sad. I mean like i said i am not a graphics whore but it would be cool for a dev to talk about Wii U specs and not make it seem like the only good thing about it is the gamepad. I really think devs are just fine with getting their game running on Wii U and trying to focus on gamepad. Why the hell is it taking Shin'en so long to release screenshot/video of Fast racing Neo?


If I were to hazard a guess, Nintendo released a holy F%$@ balls quality level trailer of mario kart 8, and Shin en decided to continue using untapped resources to improve the game as a response, rather than settling for 'good enough to show'.

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#34 Azure-Edge

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:34 AM

I agree its sad. I mean like i said i am not a graphics whore but it would be cool for a dev to talk about Wii U specs and not make it seem like the only good thing about it is the gamepad. I really think devs are just fine with getting their game running on Wii U and trying to focus on gamepad. Why the hell is it taking Shin'en so long to release screenshot/video of Fast racing Neo?

 

How many of them do you actually think have ever truly touched the system? Think about it. Most of the third party multiplats on this system were outsourced to B list devs who were just supposed to make the game run. Fact is this one occurrence just shows how stupid most people are about the system, including devs. And they have no interest in learning the system either. They don't want to make consoles games because then they'd actually have to learn how to develop on a console. They want to make PC games then port them to gaming PCs that are wrapped in console packaging (PS4 and Xbone)

 

As for WHY you don't have devs talking about the Wii U's tech prowess, well they are but it's swept under the rug and brushed off. But when someone talks crap about the system it becomes big news. Plus the big devs that are using the Wii U to its fullest aren't in the business of selling their games based on technical fidelity. 


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#35 Segata

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 10:36 AM

Problem with systems like a PC and I mean PS4/XBO is unlike consoles which tricks and power are shown more and more as time goes on PS4/XBO are showing everything they have now. They are working in reverse. What you see is what you get. WiiU over time game will look better and better. That is why you want to stick to a true console design for consoles.  Only be so long before PC devs complain PS4/XBO don't have the power for thier ports like they always do.


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#36 NintendoReport

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 10:44 AM

Problem with systems like a PC and I mean PS4/XBO is unlike consoles which tricks and power are shown more and more as time goes on PS4/XBO are showing everything they have now. They are working in reverse. What you see is what you get. WiiU over time game will look better and better. That is why you want to stick to a true console design for consoles.  Only be so long before PC devs complain PS4/XBO don't have the power for thier ports like they always do.

 

and just imagine.. Nintendo has it's feet wet now in HD and I am sure their engines are constantly evolving and improving and would not be surprised to see some future titles 1080p native. One would think they targeted 720p initially with their games just because of overall development time when the console was released, and they are learning more as they go..


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#37 tboss

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 12:08 PM

If PS360 were to run W101 the following would certainly happen.

 

  • Resolution downgraded
  • 30fps with significant drops
  • less characters on screen

:D

 

The name of the game would then change too, The Sub Average 41

 

 

i would expect a massive reduction in the number of hero's you control. as for actual graphics, aside from maybe a small resolution/feature drop/ , to be relatively unchanged. also a less consistant framerate. I do not believe this games does enough graphically to noticeably outclass last gen, but games beyenetta and many other games do.



#38 Segata

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:27 PM

Also lower the lighting a great deal and lower rez textures. basically not do this far of a degree but Dead Rising on Wii.


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#39 3Dude

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 02:50 PM

i would expect a massive reduction in the number of hero's you control. as for actual graphics, aside from maybe a small resolution/feature drop/ , to be relatively unchanged. also a less consistant framerate. I do not believe this games does enough graphically to noticeably outclass last gen, but games beyenetta and many other games do.


You should take another look at last gen games. Im replaying Metal gear rising right now,platinums last big ps360 game and graphically, it is getting blown out of the water.

Not only is their a LOOOOOOOT more simultaneous enemies in tw101, including big enemies, but aside from the ant sized ones their polycounts and textures are putting rising to shame, in comparison, rising looks very, very blocky and blurry.... and very very tiny and claustrophobic.

And also, ps360 games dont use polygons to write the speed limits on the ground, and for writing on signs. In no way shape or form could tw101 be brought to 360 in tact, not gameplay, not enemy count, not art style, especially not art style, tw101 uses polygons for detail work the entire 360/ps3 generation used normal maps to hide, and games designed like tw101, large scale zoomed out view, didnt ever come anywhere near to remotely close to tw101's fidelity when zoomed in like tw101 constantly does.

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#40 Segata

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 03:04 PM

Which is interesting as MGR still looks pretty decent but was never wowing people visually just the ability to slice crap up and BTW just played it the other day. Only MG game I ever loved. I used to have MGS  on PS1 and Gamecube. I saw the charm and the reasons why they are loved and rightly so. Just was not for me but MGR right up my alley. PG action game. Yip. Cyborgs. Yip. Cutting things with swords. Yip(I have a ting for swords in games) and Ninjas. Yip.

Would love to see a sequel. (be funny if WiiU exclusive lol)

 

W101 will always look good. Stylized games last much longer visually.


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