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PotatoHog's daily lesson on the Wii U CPU/GPU situation


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#41 Arkhandar

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:13 AM

I did, its in the miles section of the rad games tool site I linked to.

Here easier:

http://www.radgameto...com/msshist.htm

This one only goes to the beginning of september though. And yeah, its obvious nintendo prioritizes some devs over others. Shin en and ubisoft and probably others like capcom obviously have the latest v5 devkits. Other devs who nintendo seems to deem less..... worthy, are likely still several versions behind, hence the whining and negative articles from some, and praise from others, like shin en and ubisoft.

32Mb embedded on gpu has been cross confirmed by multiple recognized and confirmed by neogaf staff as developers who have wii u devkits.

Its also absolutely necessary for wii bc as the 12.8 Gb a second bandwidth from main ram is insuffecient for wii games. (namely the bandwidth and latency of the 24Mb 1tsram.)

So you're assuming that by September the Wii U was still on "V2"? Enlighten me.

Then 32MB of eDRAM is not really confirmed, it's only rumored. It could have 24MB for instance.

And about Wii BC, you're still missing the fact that the Wii has 64MB of GDDR3 too. Where does that fit in?

Edited by Arkhandar, 24 November 2012 - 10:15 AM.

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#42 3Dude

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:41 AM

So you're assuming that by September the Wii U was still on "V2"? Enlighten me.
Then 32MB of eDRAM is not really confirmed, it's only rumored. It could have 24MB for instance.
And about Wii BC, you're still missing the fact that the Wii has 64MB of GDDR3 too. Where does that fit in?


I am assuming nothing as of september that is EXACTLY the version miles had. v2.07.3 That is not an assumption, its on the development log. That is FACT.

Wwise didnt even recieve a wii u devkit until 2012.

http://www.audiokine...news/219-2012-1

and just released 2012 v2 in september where they made optimizations to a newer wii u sdk where they made performance increases of 230-440%.

http://www.audiokine...news/227-2012-2

Fact.

You simply need to readjust your assessment of what is 'obvious' and 'common sense' with what you think of sdk gersion releases over time.

24 Mb at the same bandwidth and latency of the wii's 1tsram is the bare minimum for wii bc compatability.

This was on off die pool of memory on wii, we know its embedded on the wii u gpu, weve seen teardowns, The size of the gpu itself is right for a gpu of the wii u's process and ballpark performance..... with the area of around 32Mb edram added in, it cant be external the only other die on the McM is a small arm processor sized die, (around 2-3 mm square) far too small to be an external memory die of any use. 24Mb would still be over 2x what the 360 had however, Being that the wii u has an additional 480p screen to fill, and that 32 Mb has been dropped by multiple confirmed devs in unrelated threads, the same devs who leaked the also confirmed (by shin en) audio dsp, all this makes for an incredibly strong deductive argument for 32Mb.

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#43 Arkhandar

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:54 AM

I am assuming nothing as of september that is EXACTLY the version miles had. v2.07.3 That is not an assumption, its on the development log. That is FACT.

Wwise didnt even recieve a wii u devkit until 2012.

http://www.audiokine...news/219-2012-1

and just released 2012 v2 in september where they made optimizations to a newer wii u sdk where they made performance increases of 230-440%.

http://www.audiokine...news/227-2012-2

Fact.

You simply need to readjust your assessment of what is 'obvious' and 'common sense' with what you think of sdk gersion releases over time.

24 Mb at the same bandwidth and latency of the wii's 1tsram is the bare minimum for wii bc compatability.

This was on off die pool of memory on wii, we know its embedded on the wii u gpu, weve seen teardowns, The size of the gpu itself is right for a gpu of the wii u's process and ballpark performance..... with the area of around 32Mb edram added in, it cant be external the only other die on the McM is a small arm processor sized die, (around 2-3 mm square) far too small to be an external memory die of any use. 24Mb would still be over 2x what the 360 had however, Being that the wii u has an additional 480p screen to fill, and that 32 Mb has been dropped by multiple confirmed devs in unrelated threads, the same devs who leaked the also confirmed (by shin en) audio dsp, all this makes for an incredibly strong deductive argument for 32Mb.

Then this, along with this E3 dev menu pic from E3 2012, pretty much confirms that a V5 devkit doesn't even exist. Otherwise it should have already been shipped to Wwise devs and it should have been on E3 too.
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Why 32MB and not any other above 24MB? Is it mere coincidence that the max L3 cache from IBM and the so called "reported" Wii U eDRAM quantities are the same?

POWER7

  • Produced 2010
  • Designed by IBM
  • Max. CPU clock rate 2.4 GHz to 4.25 GHz
  • Cores 4, 6, 8
  • L1 cache 32+32 KB/core
  • L2 cache 256 KB/core
  • L3 cache 32 MB
​


Is it just me or does it really sound like some random guy went to the POWER7 Wikipedia page and just took the maximum amount of eDRAM he could and posted it on Neogaf? (please remember that the eDRAM 32MB rumor appeared alongside the POWER7 CPU bonanza)

Edited by Arkhandar, 24 November 2012 - 11:02 AM.

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#44 3Dude

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:14 AM

Then this, along with this E3 dev menu pic from E3 2012, pretty much confirms that a V5 devkit doesn't even exist. Otherwise it should have already been shipped to Wwise devs and it should have been on E3 too.
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Why 32MB and not any other above 24MB? Is it mere coincidence that the max L3 cache from IBM and the so called "reported" Wii U eDRAM quantities are the same?
Is it just me or does it really sound like some random guy went to the POWER7 Wikipedia page and just took the maximum amount of eDRAM he could and posted it on Neogaf? (please remember that the eDRAM 32MB rumor appeared alongside the POWER7 CPU bonanza)


Definately mere coincidence that they share the same capacity. There is also another coincidence surrounding the cpu. All signs DO POINT to wii u cpu sharing the same technology that made the power 7 possible, namely a special ram technology (read the ibm wii u press release). People, being people are easily distracted by big shiny things, and immediately grabbed onto the massive 32Mb embedded edram technology that was the p7's l3 cache.

It was actually the tiny l1/l2 cache (under 1 Mb combined) technology the press release was talking about.

This doesnt confirm that a v5 doesnt exist (personally, I feel ideaman may be listing versions as changes and updates in the sdk, citing a different version number for each time a source tells him they switched sdk's, as such I sort of keep ideamans sdk info and actual releases Ive seen for a fact as parallel information. Hes been right about just about everything hes said that has now been confirmed, and on this matter it would be more of him misiunderstanding the information he was given rather than being wrong about it), although it may not, but the info to prove it doesnt lie here, this merely shows that Nintendo favors certain developers over others. In this case, Nintendo is giving preferred service to devs making exclusive content for Nintendos system, like ubisoft, shin en, and level 5, over devs making middleware sound engines.

For example, this ubisoft sdk shown in that pick was V 2.06.02 While at that point in time, Miles was on V2.04, and did not exceed ubisofts old e3 rayman demo sdk (which was likely several months and versions behind the actual product, its just how demos work) until september, four months later, when miles switched to v2.07.03

Edited by 3Dude, 24 November 2012 - 11:48 AM.

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#45 Dragon

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:15 AM

One thing I've learned is that if you get into an argument with 3Dude, you probably won't win.

EDIT: I meant it as a good thing for 3Dude.

Edited by Dragon, 24 November 2012 - 12:09 PM.

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#46 Arkhandar

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:40 AM

Definately mere coincidence that they share the same capacity. There is also another coincidence surrounding the cpu. All signs DO POINT to wii u cpu sharing the same technology that made the power 7 possible, namely a special ram technology (read the ibm wii u press release). People, being people are easily distracted by big shiny things, and immediately grabbed onto the massive 32Mb embedded edram technology that was the p7's l3 cache.

It was actually the tiny l1/l2 cache (under 1 Mb combined) technology the press release was talking about.

This doesnt confirm that a v5 doesnt exist, although it may not, but the info to prove it doesnt lie here, this merely shows that Nintendo favors certain developers over others. In this case, Nintendo is giving preferred service to devs making exclusive content for Nintendos system, lile ubisoft, shin en, and level 5, over devs making middleware sound engines.

I wouldn't call it a "mere coincidence". Like you said "People, being people are easily distracted by big shiny things, and immediately grabbed onto the massive 32Mb embedded edram technology that was the p7's l3 cache", so in the middle of the rumor fever it was posted that the Wii U would have 32MB of eDRAM. Since the Wii U probably doesn't even have a POWER7 CPU, much less an 8 core package to match the 32MB, the rumor stating that the Wii U had a 32MB eDRAM dedicated to the CPU pool is completely false. After this "People, being people are easily distracted by big shiny things", immediately grabbed onto the CPU eDRAM rumor and confused it with eDRAM dedicated to the GPU and so on. So, by this line of what most likely happened, it's possible that the Wii U doesn't even have 32MB of eDRAM dedicated to the GPU. Again, it obviously isn't just a "mere coincidence".


Anyhow, as you can see, this pic was taken from a Rayman Legends demo unit, from Ubisoft's E3 2012 both, so they suddenly aren't a favored developer from Nintendo since they only have V2 devkits by E3 2012, yet they're the one publisher that most support the system at launch?

Too many inconsistencies if you ask me.
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#47 3Dude

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:58 AM

I wouldn't call it a "mere coincidence". Like you said "People, being people are easily distracted by big shiny things, and immediately grabbed onto the massive 32Mb embedded edram technology that was the p7's l3 cache", so in the middle of the rumor fever it was posted that the Wii U would have 32MB of eDRAM. Since the Wii U probably doesn't even have a POWER7 CPU, much less an 8 core package to match the 32MB, the rumor stating that the Wii U had a 32MB eDRAM dedicated to the CPU pool is completely false. After this "People, being people are easily distracted by big shiny things", immediately grabbed onto the CPU eDRAM rumor and confused it with eDRAM dedicated to the GPU and so on. So, by this line of what most likely happened, it's possible that the Wii U doesn't even have 32MB of eDRAM dedicated to the GPU. Again, it obviously isn't just a "mere coincidence".


Anyhow, as you can see, this pic was taken from a Rayman Legends demo unit, from Ubisoft's E3 2012 both, so they suddenly aren't a favored developer from Nintendo since they only have V2 devkits by E3 2012, yet they're the one publisher that most support the system at launch?

Too many inconsistencies if you ask me.


Are you not reading? Miles didnt get a version as new as ubisofts 2.06.02 in your picture (Which was likely several versions old and several months behind the actual game, as is the nature of demos) until FOUR MONTHS LATER in september, when they finally got v2.07.03

As for the cpu, the difference is, one of those is a rumour without any basis, never had any basis, never had a single shred of supported evidence, and the other one is a completely seperate subject supported by multiple confirmed devs on different seperate and not linked occasions, and is thouroghly supported by information from tearing the system open and ripping apart its mcm.

They simply both happened to be 32 Mb.

Also, the power 7 is not an 8-core 'chip' The power 7 server package (like the 750 express) contains 8 power 7 processor cores. A power 7 can be anywhere from hundreds of cores to a half socket reduced pin 1-4 core product.

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#48 Arkhandar

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:08 PM

Are you not reading? Miles didnt get a version as new as ubisofts 2.06.02 in your picture (Which was likely several versions old and several months behind the actual game, as is the nature of demos) until FOUR MONTHS LATER in september, when they finally got v2.07.03

As for the cpu, the difference is, one of those is a rumour without any basis, never had any basis, never had a single shred of supported evidence, and the other one is a completely seperate subject supported by multiple confirmed devs on different seperate and not linked occasions, and is thouroghly supported by information from tearing the system open and ripping apart its mcm.

They simply both happened to be 32 Mb.

Also, the power 7 is not an 8-core 'chip' The power 7 server package (like the 750 express) contains 8 power 7 processor cores. A power 7 can be anywhere from hundreds of cores to a half socket reduced pin 1-4 core product.

First up, this is still nowhere near the so called "V5 devkits", and by September a middleware company not having nowhere near "final devkits" is pretty much very unlikely. The only conclusion that I can take from this is that those V5 final devkit rumors are just a truckload of crap, jeopardizing all other Wii U spec rumors.

Now, give me one source that has effectively "tear[ed] the system open and ripp[ed] apart its mcm", and from there was able to analyse its components, through means like X-Ray, and came to the conclusion that the Wii U has 32MB of eDRAM. One is enough.

Lastly, where did I say that POWER7 IS and 8-core chip?

Edited by Arkhandar, 24 November 2012 - 12:09 PM.

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#49 3Dude

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:34 PM

First up, this is still nowhere near the so called "V5 devkits", and by September a middleware company not having nowhere near "final devkits" is pretty much very unlikely. The only conclusion that I can take from this is that those V5 final devkit rumors are just a truckload of crap.

Now, give me one source that has effectively "tear[ed] the system open and ripp[ed] apart its mcm", and from there was able to analyse its components, through means like X-Ray, and came to the conclusion that the Wii U has 32MB of eDRAM. One is enough.

Lastly, where did I say that POWER7 IS and 8-core chip?


You never said it was an 8 core chip, you actually used package. My apologies, Its not something im used to seeing from others.

I explained what I think Ideaman could be doing in an earlier post, you should direct your disillusionment at him, not me. I didnt mean to shatter any perceptions, Ive just got... facts.

3dude; "(personally, I feel ideaman may be listing versions as changes and updates in the sdk, citing a different version number for each time a source tells him they switched sdk's, as such I sort of keep ideamans sdk info and actual releases Ive seen for a fact as parallel information. Hes been right about just about everything hes said that has now been confirmed, and on this matter it would be more of him misiunderstanding the information he was given rather than being wrong about it)"

As such, his version five wouldnt be sdk v5.0, but the fifth time his contacts have switched SDK's for newer versions with improved performance.

That being said, if miles didnt get past the version Ubisoft had back in the beginning of june, until four months later in september (and itts now end of november) What does ubisoft have now half a year later? They are likely still quite the ways ahead of miles.



http://www.thetechfi...701270469153035

This is one of the few that actually ripped off the heat spreader. It hasnt been xrayed yet, but the logic is sound.

The hd 5670 has a processor core thats about 104 mm squared. The wii u has a gpu processor thats 156.21 mm squared. Unless you seriously want to postulate that the wii u has some SERIOUSLY ridiculously powerful gpu in it, without any edram which is imperative for a console, around the 5670 in capablities and footprint is a very logical choice. Thats not SAYING its a 5670, they just used it as an example. 50 mm square would be a nice size chunk of edram, for example, IBM gets 11 mb for every mm^2 in its higher tier edram, (a little over 1 Mb Very expensive though, you use that for small edram like l1 or l2) for larger capacity, IBM offers a more reasonable edram with 6.7 mb per mm^2

http://www.computer....010014-abs.html

at about 50 mm squared that would net you 335 mb, or about 41 MB edram. Of course, the actual chip doesnt have the max surface area measured to work with, the physical cover of the chip takes space, and you need space for parts to control the edram, and bus its data into the processor and out to other components, so that takes up real estate. Then you have to think of actual chip sizes the company makes, they come in set sizes, you cant simply take any odd number of Mb you want.

And when you take that all into account, 32Mb looks to be by far the strongest candidate.

Edited by 3Dude, 24 November 2012 - 12:39 PM.

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#50 Arkhandar

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:42 PM

You never said it was an 8 core chip, you actually used package. My apologies, Its not something im used to seeing from others.

I explained what I think Ideaman could be doing in an earlier post, you should direct your disillusionment at him, not me. I didnt mean to shatter any perceptions, Ive just got... facts.

3dude; "(personally, I feel ideaman may be listing versions as changes and updates in the sdk, citing a different version number for each time a source tells him they switched sdk's, as such I sort of keep ideamans sdk info and actual releases Ive seen for a fact as parallel information. Hes been right about just about everything hes said that has now been confirmed, and on this matter it would be more of him misiunderstanding the information he was given rather than being wrong about it)"

As such, his version five wouldnt be sdk v5.0, but the fifth time his contacts have switched SDK's for newer versions with improved performance.



http://www.thetechfi...701270469153035

This is one of the few that actually ripped off the heat spreader. It hasnt been xrayed yet, but the logic is sound.

The hd 5670 has a processor core thats about 104 mm squared. The wii u has a gpu processor thats 156.21 mm squared. Unless you seriously want to postulate that the wii u has some SERIOUSLY ridiculously powerful gpu in it, without any edram which is imperative for a console, around the 5670 in capablities and footprint is a very logical choice. Thats not SAYING its a 5670, they just used it as an example. 50 mm square would be a nice size chunk of edram, for example, IBM gets 11 mb for every mm^2 in its higher tier edram, (a little over 1 Mb Very expensive though, you use that for small edram like l1 or l2) for larger capacity, IBM offers a more reasonable edram with 6.7 mb per mm^2

http://www.computer....010014-abs.html

at about 50 mm squared that would net you 335 mb, or about 41 MB edram. Of course, the actual chip doesnt have the max surface area measured to work with, the physical cover of the chip takes space, and you need space for parts to control the edram, and bus its data into the processor and out to other components, so that takes up real estate. Then you have to think of actual chip sizes the company makes, they come in set sizes, you cant simply take any odd number of Mb you want.

And when you take that all into account, 32Mb looks to be by far the strongest candidate.

Regarding IdeaMan, thankfully, that is most likely the case.

32MB looks to be the strongest candidate, but like you said we're not sure if there's a 5670 inside, so taking that into account the strongest candidate could also be 28, 30, 34, 36, 38... you get where I'm going.

Depending on the actual GPU core size, it could be anything. 32MB is just a guess that has its roots in early, now proven false, CPU rumors.

Edited by Arkhandar, 24 November 2012 - 12:44 PM.

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#51 3Dude

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:47 PM

Regarding IdeaMan, thankfully, that is most likely the case.

32MB looks to be the strongest candidate, but like you said we're not sure if there's a 5670 inside, so taking that into account the strongest candidate could also be 28, 30, 34, 36, 38... you get where I'm going.

Depending on the actual GPU core size, it could be anything.


Could be anything, but likely its centered around the ball park of 32 MB with a gpu roughly the size of the 5760.

32Mb + or - a margin of error is always implied when working with deductive logic like this. Add on to that the confirmation of devs who are registered as devs by neo gaf (you have to actually present your credentials) of 32 Mb edram on the gpu, and thats why Im so confident of having it at, or very, very near, 32 Mb.

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#52 Arkhandar

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:37 PM

Could be anything, but likely its centered around the ball park of 32 MB with a gpu roughly the size of the 5760.

32Mb + or - a margin of error is always implied when working with deductive logic like this. Add on to that the confirmation of devs who are registered as devs by neo gaf (you have to actually present your credentials) of 32 Mb edram on the gpu, and thats why Im so confident of having it at, or very, very near, 32 Mb.

Going through the industry's multiplier it would make sense for it to be 32MB (...2MB, 4MB, 8MB, 16MB, 32Mb...) i guess. Let's wait and see. Only time (or X-rays in this case) will tell. xD
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#53 Plutonas

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:03 PM

360 cpu is 46 gflops and wii cpu was 2.5 gflops... if wii U cpu is wiix3 with some higher clocks, I think it will play between 20-35 gflops overall... just a speculation. Also ps3 is a single core cpu with a theoretically peak up to 220++ gflops.. But in most of the games ps3 performs with 25-30 gflops multitasks... With all this announcements and developer topics.. Wii U its hard to be, even 25..

rumors from the past, saying wii U is a power 7, its just a faded dream by now... lets wait and see what exactly it is... lol

Edited by Orion, 24 November 2012 - 03:22 PM.


#54 Arkhandar

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:25 PM

360 cpu is 46 gflops and wii cpu was 2.5 gflops... if wii U cpu is wiix3 with some higher clocks, I think it will play between 20-35 gflops overall... just a speculation. Also ps3 is a single core cpu with a theoretically peak up to 220++ gflops.. But in most of the games ps3 performs with 25-30 gflops multitasks... With all this announcements and developer topics.. Wii U its hard to be, even 25..

rumors from the past, saying wii U is a power 7, its just a faded dream by now... lets wait and see what exactly it is... lol

Those calculations...

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#55 Plutonas

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:32 PM

its not calculations, but speculations... If its slower than ps3 and 360... then its lower than 30 gflops... I am very generous... New articles pop up, saying that wii U cpu runs at 1.2ghz... hahaha this is worse than mine.

Look at this article.. very interesting!! http://www.eurogamer...-wii-u-face-off

you can see even the fps meter between the 3....

Edited by Orion, 24 November 2012 - 03:43 PM.


#56 3Dude

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:49 PM

its not calculations, but speculations... If its slower than ps3 and 360... then its lower than 30 gflops... I am very generous... New articles pop up, saying that wii U cpu runs at 1.2ghz... hahaha this is worse than mine.


Of course the flops are lower. Ps4's a10's cpu will deliver less flops than the cell did.

Nobody cares. Last gen was the only gen that placed a priority on cpu flops and thats because the ps360 sucked Donkey balls at General purpose.

Silly rabbit, Whetstones are for Gpu's. Dhrystones are for cpu's. Thats kinda the whole reason we seperated into dedicated processors to begin with.

Oh, and the main ram is clocked at 800Mhz, meaning, on a Nintendo system the cpu would be 1.6 (not 1.2) Ghz, or more likely given Nintendos affection for 3's, 2.4Ghz.

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#57 Plutonas

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:51 PM

I know thats a problem we have in pc as well... Lots of bugs.. eg skyrim with fps drops (if you know about it). They all optimise the games to run via the cpu AND NOT THE GPU...

Well if that changes... it will be something plus for wii U, also the pc gamers.... because we have a good cpu, but our gpus (sli or crossfire) kick ass... hehehe but if the games are optimised for cpus and not gpus.. then sli or good gpus is a waste of money.

quality games for pc gamers are the ones, that optimised for gpus and NOT for cpus... We call this games trash (bad coding)... satisfied?

Edited by Orion, 24 November 2012 - 04:00 PM.


#58 esrever

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:53 PM

Is it just me or does it really sound like some random guy went to the POWER7 Wikipedia page and just took the maximum amount of eDRAM he could and posted it on Neogaf? (please remember that the eDRAM 32MB rumor appeared alongside the POWER7 CPU bonanza)

the quote was for the other guy who didn't know that the edram in the cpu was for an L3 when IBM uses it. It has nothing to do with amount in the Wii u. The CPU eDram is probably less than 4mb.

its not calculations, but speculations... If its slower than ps3 and 360... then its lower than 30 gflops... I am very generous... New articles pop up, saying that wii U cpu runs at 1.2ghz... hahaha this is worse than mine.

Look at this article.. very interesting!! http://www.eurogamer...-wii-u-face-off

you can see even the fps meter between the 3....

the 1.2ghz rumor doesn't make any sense. The faceoff is for unoptimized code and with a lot of other limitations in place. you can't just speculate the flops you can get out.

#59 Arkhandar

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

The only thing we know for sure is that there will be no clock cycle loss, unlike in other systems. So when speculating clock speeds we should have in mind that the DSP, CPU, GPU and RAM will be clocked in multipliers, just like every other Nintendo system.
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#60 3Dude

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:33 PM

The only thing we know for sure is that there will be no clock cycle loss, unlike in other systems. So when speculating clock speeds we should have in mind that the DSP, CPU, GPU and RAM will be clocked in multipliers, just like every other Nintendo system.


Yup, and the Ram is clocked at 800 Mhz, this, is confirmed, via serial number on multiple ram units used (both Samsung and hyrex ram have identical specs, and the serial numbers put them at units clocked at 800Mhz)

Sooooo.... Multiplication time. We are obviously looking at 2 or 3x, so its 1.6 Ghz, or 2.4 Ghz, for some reason, Nintendo seems to love 3's for its cpu's, and Takada said it was a little slower than ps360 (around 3.2 Ghz).... So Im guessing 2.4 Ghz first and 1.6 second.

The benefit of OoO processing grows as the speed difference between main memory, cache memory and the cpu gets bigger. Nowadays, the cpu runs many times faster than the memory, so during the time an in-order processor spends waiting for data to arrive, it could have processed a large number of instructions, severely removing the need, and even the point of having higher bandwidth main memory.

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