56 replies to this topic

[Fero]

Yes.

 

Da hell kinda difference would it make? Nintendo games will still be amazing.

 

I wish I was still like this and thought Nintendo's games were generally more than just a one playthrough thing that is fun to revisit every now and then.

 

Agree with most of this especially if Sony/MS go the cloud route.

 

 

 

Works perfectly, until the table in front of the couch blocks the connection.

[Mahmoodinho98]

A development architecture is not the same thing as hardware architecture. ppc IS the current hardware architecture for Nintendo's systems since gamecube, so retaining ppc would mean technical backwards compatability back to gamecube.

 

As if right now, the 3ds, and wii u have vastly different development environments, they are completely different environments to program and create games in. It would be like having to use two different languages for each console. People who have mastered 3ds development know nothing about wii u development and visa versa. Having a unified development architecture just mens they will be using the same 'language' for both systems.

 

Putting Nintendo games on android and ios is idiotic and company destroying. The android/ios and now even steam audience has completely devauled gaming, to the point they wont even spend 5 bucks on a brilliant game. Not only would Nintendo completely devalue its own hardware by releasing its content on phones instead of or along side Nintendo hardware, but they would make a fraction of the money with even millions of 'sales' that they would with couple thousand k of 40-60 dollar games.

It seems you mis understood my last part about android and ios. I meant that developers would port some of their android and ios games to wii u not the opposit   because as you said  even with million of sales they wouldn't be profitable.

 

 here is question that has been bothering me for so long, how can xbox one and ps4 which are running an X86 chip with 28nm node use more power than wii u CPU that is based on 65nm node?

Edited by Mahmoodinho98, 24 December 2014 - 01:45 AM.

[GAMER1984]

Doesn't matter what the architecture is to enjoy games. But wii u probably ruin my day 1 tradition. I will never buy another console day 1

[3Dude]

It seems you mis understood my last part about android and ios. I meant that developers would port some of their android and ios games to wii u not the opposit because as you said even with million of sales they wouldn't be profitable.

here is question that has been bothering me for so long, how can xbox one and ps4 which are running an X86 chip with 28nm node use more power than wii u CPU that is based on 65nm node?

Ah, sorry about that. See it the other way around way too much.

Well, they technically have 2 x86 jaguars, for 8 cores that need to be powered compared to espressos 3.

[BrosBeforeGardenTools]

Regarding the "how can the chip use more power" question, are we figuring in that the XBone/PS4 has a built in GPU or not?

[iEatTacos]

A Nintendo game will still be a Nintendo game. So yes I will buy it regardless.

[DéliopT]

Well, I was only talking about the ppc cpu, so a lot of that equation would be dependant on what GPU Nintendo decided to pair it with.

 

A wii u handheld could be tough, although the ppc 750 is a low power drawing processor for a plugged in system, it certainly isn't a sub-watt processor the likes of ARM products that go into mobile devices. It would depend on how low that power draw can get on that shrunken node per core, and at what clock speeds.

 

When Nintendo says architecture im not so sure they are talking about direct hardware architecture like using the same cpu processors for the handheld and consoles, but more a runtime architecture that can run the same code across both systems, which are stocked with similar api's and other run time libraries.

 

A unified development architecture, not necessarily the same hardware architecture.

 

This way, All next ds games could effortlessly run on wii next, easily upped in resolution and with sharper textures, better lighting, and better effects, and select wii next games would run on ds next systems with simple downscaling options. Obviously, the bigger, most impressive wii next games will be too much for a battery sipping portable, but big names that are simple enough cpu wise, like mario kart, party and smash, will be easy to have a portable version built to be downscale ready at the flip of a switch (Or the system flag of a boot). Even activating platform specific content for each game, all made by the same team during the same development cycle.

 

Making a game for ds next and wii next will be exactly the same code wise. Just one will be more powerful than another. No need for specialized wii u teams, and specialized 3ds teams, who excel on one platform but are inexperienced on the other. 

 

This would be a huge boost in resource effeciency, and greatly aid Nintendo in increasing the speed of content creation while mantaining quality. It will directly address game shortages Nintendo faces Whether or not 3rd parties decide to stop being Nintendo phobic.

 

To answer your Nintendos next console question, I think it will likely be a little more powerful than ps4/xbone, its next ds will likely be around as, or a little more powerful than the vita, although the resolution may not be as high as the vita's.

 

From what i understood, Iwata didn't mean they would the exact same architecture, just upgraded, but an architecture that allows them to use what they learn from Wii U and apply it to both the DS next an Wii U next. As in, how they could work with Wii U even if that means another type of architecture; same goals but different path.

 

Yeah, that's basically my idea of how next gen will pan out.
It's obvious that, even if 3rd parties release an equal version with all the extras on Wii U next, the game still won't sell a lot because the userbase just isn't on Nintendo's side and if we look at the japanese market, it's even worse: the handhelds will get the best support.
So, in Japan's case, having a system that "automatically" can play the same handheld games but with better graphics, it provides a great library for the home console.

 

"Even activating platform specific content for each game"
This could be a good incentive for people to buy both consoles.

[Plutonas]

I dont think nintendo would ever do that.

 

They just have to give a more powerful IBM cpu... A 3 core 4 thread per core cpu, would be enough  or 4 cores 16 threads.

 

IBM cpus have 4 threads per core.  So a 4 core IBM cpu is like 16 cores for amd.  But Nintendo cut wii U cpu down, they cheaped it very much. So its not the IBM we should blame here or to consider IBM as a weak cpu.

 

We have to blame 2 things for why wii U lucks in 3rd games..

 

1) Nintendo play safe and they end up without 3rd games. Also nintendo cares allot of making profit from hardware. Cheap hardware and sell it very expensive. Thats what they did with gamecube and wii....

2) Gaming companies, cheap productions costs at maximum.  They create 1 game and they just look to do easy porting, to make more profits.  That is why they dont support wii U.

 

So as far as I remember, when wii U came out, some paid developers from MS or Sony, start ranting wii U... horrible, weak, junk and whatever...  So they made gamers not to buy it.  I remember the ranting.

They tried to slow down the sales of wii U and they made it...  Wii U start selling more, after ps4 and x1 release... That means something, their slowed it down till they release their own.

Edited by Plutonas, 27 December 2014 - 04:55 PM.

[3Dude]

I dont think nintendo would ever do that.
 
They just have to give a more powerful IBM cpu... A 3 core 4 thread per core cpu, would be enough  or 4 cores 16 threads.
 
IBM cpus have 4 threads per core.  So a 4 core IBM cpu is like 16 cores for amd.  But Nintendo cut wii U cpu down, they cheaped it very much. So its not the IBM we should blame here or to consider IBM as a weak cpu.
 
We have to blame 2 things for why wii U lucks in 3rd games..
 
1) Nintendo play safe and they end up without 3rd games. Also nintendo cares allot of making profit from hardware. Cheap hardware and sell it very expensive. Thats what they did with gamecube and wii....
2) Gaming companies, cheap productions costs at maximum.  They create 1 game and they just look to do easy porting, to make more profits.  That is why they dont support wii U.

Nintendo didnt cut anything from the cpu.

That series IBM cpu NEVER had 4 threads to the core. The IBM cpu with 4 threads per core is the power 7, which was never the wii u cpu, that was a HUGE pr goof up on IBM's end.

The Wii u uses a custom ppc750, which never had more than 1 thread per core, or more than 1 core for that matter, so, nothing was cut out or cheapened on the cpu. In fact, this cpu is beefed unrecognizably beyond any cpu ever seen in the 750 family.

Increased registers for more agressive OoO, first ever multicore in series, huge L1 Caches.

Had ps4/xbone gone with actual performance cpu's The espresso would seem more antiquated, but, they opted for tablet cpu's instead. Core for core, espresso and jaguars are pretty comparable. In fact, if espresso was shrunk to jaguars node, and given matching cores, and a vpu, it would wipe the floor with jaguar, which was only a 15% improvement over the pathetic bobcat.

Its not system power keeping 3rd parties off of Nintendo systems. Its third parties, keeping themselves off Nintendo systems. No matter how powerful Nintendo machines get, this will NEVER change, until they have NO CHOICE.

[GAMER1984]

Nintendo didnt cut anything from the cpu.

That series IBM cpu NEVER had 4 threads to the core. The IBM cpu with 4 threads per core is the power 7, which was never the wii u cpu, that was a HUGE pr goof up on IBM's end.

The Wii u uses a custom ppc750, which never had more than 1 thread per core, or more than 1 core for that matter, so, nothing was cut out or cheapened on the cpu. In fact, this cpu is beefed unrecognizably beyond any cpu ever seen in the 750 family.

Increased registers for more agressive OoO, first ever multicore in series, huge L1 Caches.

Had ps4/xbone gone with actual performance cpu's The espresso would seem more antiquated, but, they opted for tablet cpu's instead. Core for core, espresso and jaguars are pretty comparable. In fact, if espresso was shrunk to jaguars node, and given matching cores, and a vpu, it would wipe the floor with jaguar, which was only a 15% improvement over the pathetic bobcat.

Its not system power keeping 3rd parties off of Nintendo systems. Its third parties, keeping themselves off Nintendo systems. No matter how powerful Nintendo machines get, this will NEVER change, until they have NO CHOICE.

Yes this is the truth. people need to understand this... no amount of power will bring every third party... some will bite though. but IMO nintendo and third parties relation ship are forever ruined.

[Raiden]

I won't buy another Nintendo console until they put in 4 Pentium 4 CPU's along side 2 Intel Viiv CPU's from the Pentium D 930 line.

 

I want Apple Fire Wire and a scuzzy hard drive at a max 80GB. I want an ATI 9800 Pro Graphics card. USB 1.0 ports on the top. I want the games to come only on VCD's and the games for the next Nintendo handheld can come on D-VHS or MiniDV.

 

Nintendo should include a Dell Digital Jukebox and a Maxtor One Touch Gen 1 120GB External HDD.

 

This is the  only way I will buy a new Nintendo console and bring 3rd party developers back.

 

BTW it needs to use the OS of Red Hat Linux

[DéliopT]

The only thing that will bring back 3rd parties back is when Nintendo starts making - or bringing - exclusive games to their consoles that cater to the same crowd that 3rd party titles cater to.

In other words, Nintendo makes 90% type A games and 10% type B games;

3rd parties make 90% type B games and 10% type A games. Not a novelty to anyone, but the same goes for MS and Sony.

 

The numbers are just for show, but you get the point.
Unless Nintendo starts broadening the offering, like they did with the N64, they will never be an equal to MS or Sony. Unless another Wii happens.

 

Gamers want type B games, not type A, anymore.
There will always be a 20-30 million fanbase for that, but with Nintendo's mistakes and the dominance of the mobile market in their segment (kids and families), those numbers will lower for Nintendo. They need, as much as they don't want to, to go after the red ocean because the blue ocean in no longer available to them.
And either go strong or they will be stuck with GC/Wii U numbers.

 

We can blame 3d parties for ignoring Nintendo, and there might be right for some, but the consumer has spoken and made it clear, month after month, year after year, that they want those type of games and a console that offers them great value.
 

[GAMER1984]

The only thing that will bring back 3rd parties back is when Nintendo starts making - or bringing - exclusive games to their consoles that cater to the same crowd that 3rd party titles cater to.

In other words, Nintendo makes 90% type A games and 10% type B games;

3rd parties make 90% type B games and 10% type A games. Not a novelty to anyone, but the same goes for MS and Sony.

 

The numbers are just for show, but you get the point.
Unless Nintendo starts broadening the offering, like they did with the N64, they will never be an equal to MS or Sony. Unless another Wii happens.

 

Gamers want type B games, not type A, anymore.
There will always be a 20-30 million fanbase for that, but with Nintendo's mistakes and the dominance of the mobile market in their segment (kids and families), those numbers will lower for Nintendo. They need, as much as they don't want to, to go after the red ocean because the blue ocean in no longer available to them.
And either go strong or they will be stuck with GC/Wii U numbers.

 

We can blame 3d parties for ignoring Nintendo, and there might be right for some, but the consumer has spoken and made it clear, month after month, year after year, that they want those type of games and a console that offers them great value.
 

I think one of the most interesting things in gaming will be what route Nintendo decides to go for their next system. this gen (outside of the stellar quality of games for WiiU) has been a mess for Nintendo. Playstation brand is selling like crazy on basically the opposite view of what nintendo believes in. I wonder if they will take the same approach next time? I would love to see them shake things up a bit but... that we will see.

[Socalmuscle]

I highly doubt it will be x86. It will be backwards compatible with the Wii U and therefore it will use an IBM cpu with it's AMD GPU.

Not necessarily.

Nintendo can opt to use the wii u processor for I/O, security, background tasks, and other matters while also employing an entirely new setup for the new gen. The wii u Cpu can be used for compatibility. By then the Wii U cpu will be very cheap.

Win-win.

I think Iwata took a beating this gen as gamers want bragging rights as well as fun games in today's market. I'd guess that the next nintendo is going to be spec'd nicely.

Edited by Socalmuscle, 28 December 2014 - 11:08 PM.

[DéliopT]

I think one of the most interesting things in gaming will be what route Nintendo decides to go for their next system. this gen (outside of the stellar quality of games for WiiU) has been a mess for Nintendo. Playstation brand is selling like crazy on basically the opposite view of what nintendo believes in. I wonder if they will take the same approach next time? I would love to see them shake things up a bit but... that we will see.

 

Apart from Sega, Nintendo has been the one who has made the most mistakes: no CDs for N64 made it lose a ton of support, specially in Japan; no DVDs or Internet connection for GC. Despite the higher price for XB, they managed to outsell GC; Wii U lacked software for the first semester 2 years straight, no account system, the VC is bare when compared to Wii's.

 

It's no longer a question of "will Nintendo go for the core gamers?", it's a necessity.
This generation proved that Nintendo can't support two main platforms at the same time. It was fine until the DS, when they brought a lot of small games or old games (GBA) and the bulk of the resources went to N64, GC and Wii.
And it's not just a matter of making games, it's about the marketing aswell. Iwata admitted that last year that they had to refrain from pushing Wii U more because they needed that money for pushing the 3DS.

If they go with 2 consoles aswell for next gen either they unify their game development or with the little amount of support home consoles have worldwide and handhelds have in the West, things are going to look even worse.

Unifying their production of games will, not only allow them to sell a single game to the whole Nintendo fanbase, but they will have resources to make games that they can't afford to make now. And that is actually the most important part of that strategy: to develop games that cater to the PS and MS fanbase on a constant basis, not just one or two per year - 'cause that won't help things change.

Edited by DéliopT, 29 December 2014 - 06:13 AM.

[MorbidGod]

From what i understood, Iwata didn't mean they would the exact same architecture, just upgraded, but an architecture that allows them to use what they learn from Wii U and apply it to both the DS next an Wii U next. As in, how they could work with Wii U even if that means another type of architecture; same goals but different path.

Yeah, that's basically my idea of how next gen will pan out.
It's obvious that, even if 3rd parties release an equal version with all the extras on Wii U next, the game still won't sell a lot because the userbase just isn't on Nintendo's side and if we look at the japanese market, it's even worse: the handhelds will get the best support.
So, in Japan's case, having a system that "automatically" can play the same handheld games but with better graphics, it provides a great library for the home console.

"Even activating platform specific content for each game"
This could be a good incentive for people to buy both consoles.

Amen!

[3Dude]

Apart from Sega, Nintendo has been the one who has made the most mistakes: no CDs for N64 made it lose a ton of support, specially in Japan; no DVDs or Internet connection for GC. Despite the higher price for XB, they managed to outsell GC; Wii U lacked software for the first semester 2 years straight, no account system, the VC is bare when compared to Wii's.

 

It's no longer a question of "will Nintendo go for the core gamers?", it's a necessity.
This generation proved that Nintendo can't support two main platforms at the same time. It was fine until the DS, when they brought a lot of small games or old games (GBA) and the bulk of the resources went to N64, GC and Wii.
And it's not just a matter of making games, it's about the marketing aswell. Iwata admitted that last year that they had to refrain from pushing Wii U more because they needed that money for pushing the 3DS.

If they go with 2 consoles aswell for next gen either they unify their game development or with the little amount of support home consoles have worldwide and handhelds have in the West, things are going to look even worse.

Unifying their production of games will, not only allow them to sell a single game to the whole Nintendo fanbase, but they will have resources to make games that they can't afford to make now. And that is actually the most important part of that strategy: to develop games that cater to the PS and MS fanbase on a constant basis, not just one or two per year - 'cause that won't help things change.

 

It goes deeper than that as well, it has massive reductions in opportunity costs: http://en.wikipedia....pportunity_cost

 

Before, Nintendos teams needed to be professional level experts of two completely different languages and coding styles to support two systems to Nintendos level of quality. That costs a LOT of time, money, and human resources.

 

Now they will only have to master a single style.

[DéliopT]

It goes deeper than that as well, it has massive reductions in opportunity costs: http://en.wikipedia....pportunity_cost

 

Before, Nintendos teams needed to be professional level experts of two completely different languages and coding styles to support two systems to Nintendos level of quality. That costs a LOT of time, money, and human resources.

 

Now they will only have to master a single style.

 

True!
I don't understand but i'll believe you.
I mean, i heard how hard it can be to port from one architecture to the other and how even Nintendo had troubles porting Wii games to 3DS and 3DS games to Wii U, so learning a language for an architecture takes time and it will help Nintendo have to learn only one language instead of two: the more experience you have the better you get at it.

 

My guess is that come January, at the Investor Meeting, Iwata might show if that's the road they will take or not.
If they feel that "oh, everything is going well now. No reason to panic anymore. It was just a matter of getting more games into the market, that's all", then, i fear the worse.
Crossing my fingers that they realise that they have bigger problems now and ahead.

[uPadWatcher2]

A Nintendo system is a Nintendo system.  I would buy it in a heartbeat.  If the Nintendo Fusion hybrid (home and portable) system rumor is true, I would buy 'em as well.

[thunderspider]

The only thing that will bring back 3rd parties back is when Nintendo starts making - or bringing - exclusive games to their consoles that cater to the same crowd that 3rd party titles cater to.

In other words, Nintendo makes 90% type A games and 10% type B games;

3rd parties make 90% type B games and 10% type A games. Not a novelty to anyone, but the same goes for MS and Sony.

 

The numbers are just for show, but you get the point.
Unless Nintendo starts broadening the offering, like they did with the N64, they will never be an equal to MS or Sony. Unless another Wii happens.

 

Gamers want type B games, not type A, anymore.
There will always be a 20-30 million fanbase for that, but with Nintendo's mistakes and the dominance of the mobile market in their segment (kids and families), those numbers will lower for Nintendo. They need, as much as they don't want to, to go after the red ocean because the blue ocean in no longer available to them.
And either go strong or they will be stuck with GC/Wii U numbers.

 

We can blame 3d parties for ignoring Nintendo, and there might be right for some, but the consumer has spoken and made it clear, month after month, year after year, that they want those type of games and a console that offers them great value.
 

What is A and B games in your opinion?