74 replies to this topic

[RETROBLAST]

both really, i don't understand why people keep comparing the WiiU (8th gen) to X360/PS3 (7th gen) & don't say "its all we have to go on" nope, there is the X1 & PS4 to go on, which is what the WiiU is supposed to be on par with & competing with.

I think people are comparing it to last gen because many are not even convinced its as powerful as the Xbox 360 and PS3 ...

[MorbidGod]

They are, but the games we saw at e3 indicates a huge amount of open world dynamic always-online environments coming to future games.
This is the way third party publishers are going to try and lead gamers this year and going forward.

That kind of world uses a large amount of physics and other calculations which are usually done on an algorithmic circuit, like inside CPU's.

I never said the new consoles are all cpu power, I mentioned the upcoming games and direction I sense the industry is trying to lead gamers in.

When I said "I'd say it's a mix, but it's not as powerful as the new girls in town." I meant to the original question, Devs are both lazy and the Wii U isn't easy to develop for.
The fact the other two consoles are going x86 confirms both. x86 is wasteful of cycles, and a terrible terrible idea for a console, unless they get rid of pretty much every wasteful instruction intel drag along from the 70's inside every chip, and at that point it'd lose it's easy lazy appeal to most lazy devs.

They're not really choosing very powerful cpu's or gpu's in my understanding, just cramming a lot of ram inside mid/low-end pc's, and closing the box with their own OS.
Certainly they choose better cpu's and gpu's than last gen and Wii U, on paper. Well, maybe not on paper, if you take their marketing BS from last gen about cell and xenon at face value.

I wouldn't say that Sony and MS choose better than Nintendo. Nintendo's CPU is very good for what it's designed for. And yes, their GPU is newer, but that doesn't mean Nintendo didn't make a good choice with what they have.

[Nollog]

I wouldn't say that Sony and MS choose better than Nintendo. Nintendo's CPU is very good for what it's designed for. And yes, their GPU is newer, but that doesn't mean Nintendo didn't make a good choice with what they have.

I don't see where I said they made any bad choices.

I think ms and sony going x86 is not good for consoles, if they wanted us to own pc's they could go third party on steam.
Nintendo made a games consoles.

[RETROBLAST]

Miyamoto Talks Zelda, Pikmin, and Wii U Development

 

You have a new hardware system; how has the adjustment period for your teams dealing with new technology been? Do you feel that there's still a lot more, in terms of horsepower, that you can get out of the unit as you learn more about the system and its architecture and technological capabilities?

 

Of course, any time that we shift from one generation to another there are things for people to learn in terms of development and when it comes to developing the software itself. But when it comes to the hardware at Nintendo, we're a little bit unique because we're developing a new hardware system, we're doing that in conjunction with the software teams and there's communication going on about what types of games the software development teams want to create. So the hardware development and software development early on go pretty hand in hand. But certainly, as you spend more time with the hardware itself, and you get better at leveraging the hardware, you learn ways to draw out more of its power. So certainly I think that there's still more possibilities in terms of what we'll be able to do with the Wii U.

 

A lot of Nintendo's new Wii U games don't seem to use the touch screen in a very integral way. With Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze, they encourage you to play with the remote and nunchuk and Pikmin 3 is actually better with the original Wii controllers. they actually had me play with the Wii remote and nunchuk. Do you have games in development that use the touch screen as a more important part of the game or is it just a side feature?

 

Well certainly I think that when it comes to touchscreens- and obviously not just gaming but a lot of other devices, are taking advantage of touch screen technology- and from an intuitive use standpoint, I think it's very integral to video gaming just because of the ease with which you're able to design the games in a way that anybody can play with just the touch of a finger in terms of menu selections and things like that. But, really for Wii U where we look at the benefit of the gamepad screen, is we really look at it as sort of a requirement in terms of how we're handling menus and sub-screens within the games. Just to make the games more convenient and easier to play.

 

...  We always see Sony talking about how their hardware was made by developers for developers and that as a result, it is very user friendly to develop for.

 

... Here we see Nintendo saying their system was also developed for their developers, that the system has what their 1st party development teams wanted and needed to make the games they wanted to.    They also say they are unique in that they developed a a new hardware system (not based on x86 I am assuming and with a touch screen built into the system) 

 

... One of the things people complain about is that the control pad is not being used in unique and exciting ways but here even Nintendo seems to be saying that it is incorporated into the system to mostly provide convenience and ease of use ... menus, maps, selections.  I for one have been happy with its uses and may not care much for doing far fetched things with it ... I certainly do now want to play a FPS where I am only allowed to swing the pad around to look ... I would rather use the analog stick for that but would not mind using that mechanic when using a scope on a weapon.

Edited by RETROBLAST, 20 July 2013 - 06:45 AM.

[Zinix]

We have a PS3 this situation on our hands. Developers were saying that the PS3's CPU was complex and that that RAM was split in such a weird way. They managed to work around it and make it work. The Wii U has customized tech, so of course developers would be afraid to learn how it works without making a profit.  Developers will give in to Nintendo in due time. Once they see that its selling the most units of all the consoles and that you earn profit on the WII U, they'll come crawling back.

[Desert Punk]

Its so easy in a fanboy thread to make up information about how powerful a console is based on our own desires rather than reality. There are some specs we know as facts and they are the fabrication process is 45nm which is marginally worse or the same as ps3 and 360 and the main memory bandwidth is low at 12.8GB/s, a lot of the other spec is open to some sort of intepretation because none of it has been confirmed. So the real evidence is how the wii u is actually performing in comparison with 360 and PS3 and in that regard its performing badly often struggling to match them fully. Again you can intepret this as difficulties in developing for the wii u or lack of financial reward as another excuse for its low performance but at some point surely after a large number of games have been developed you will accept the wii u console is weak. It amazes me how hard people on this forum work to pretend the wii u is more powerful than it is.

 

If the wii u is sufficiently more powerful than current gen then current gen games should run on it easily not struggle. Developers should have so many additional resources that even if the game looks the same it has better frame rates and loading times. Clearly there is something horribly wrong with the wii u spec if it can not easily outperform consoles released over 7 years ago.

[RETROBLAST]

People are really on opposite sides of the spectrum on this topic ...

[Foot]

I feel it's a little bit of both, Devs use the Install base card because they CAN be lazy, but I also noticed something I terms with next Gen. Yes, X1 and PS4 use x86 and Wii U uses PowerPC, but Devs should already be familiar with that architecture based on Xbox 360. It would probably be very easy to port an X1 and PS4 game to Wii U

[3Dude]

Its so easy in a fanboy thread to make up information about how powerful a console is based on our own desires rather than reality. There are some specs we know as facts and they are the fabrication process is 45nm which is marginally worse or the same as ps3 and 360 and the main memory bandwidth is low at 12.8GB/s, a lot of the other spec is open to some sort of intepretation because none of it has been confirmed. So the real evidence is how the wii u is actually performing in comparison with 360 and PS3 and in that regard its performing badly often struggling to match them fully. Again you can intepret this as difficulties in developing for the wii u or lack of financial reward as another excuse for its low performance but at some point surely after a large number of games have been developed you will accept the wii u console is weak. It amazes me how hard people on this forum work to pretend the wii u is more powerful than it is.
 
If the wii u is sufficiently more powerful than current gen then current gen games should run on it easily not struggle. Developers should have so many additional resources that even if the game looks the same it has better frame rates and loading times. Clearly there is something horribly wrong with the wii u spec if it can not easily outperform consoles released over 7 years ago.

Its so easy in a fanboy thread to make up information about how powerful a console is based on our own desires rather than reality. There are some specs we know as facts and they are the fabrication process is 45nm which is marginally worse or the same as ps3 and 360 and the main memory bandwidth is low at 12.8GB/s, a lot of the other spec is open to some sort of intepretation because none of it has been confirmed. So the real evidence is how the wii u is actually performing in comparison with 360 and PS3 and in that regard its performing badly often struggling to match them fully. Again you can intepret this as difficulties in developing for the wii u or lack of financial reward as another excuse for its low performance but at some point surely after a large number of games have been developed you will accept the wii u console is weak. It amazes me how hard people on this forum work to pretend the wii u is more powerful than it is.
 
If the wii u is sufficiently more powerful than current gen then current gen games should run on it easily not struggle. Developers should have so many additional resources that even if the game looks the same it has better frame rates and loading times. Clearly there is something horribly wrong with the wii u spec if it can not easily outperform consoles released over 7 years ago.

Lol.

Both Xenon and cell were introduced at 90nm.... Their slim version reproductions were released at 45nm, incliding on.an attractive mcm.... and they are 1//4th the size of wii u's mcm.


For those who dont have any knowledge of the relationship between process size and die size and system power, such as, obviously, desert punk, the smaller your die size, like say, 45nm vs 90nm the smaller the transistors are, the more you can fit inside a square mm, the more powerful a chip is per square mm.

This relationship of process size and chip size is very important. If you have two chips the same exact size but the process node is different, like say 90nm vs 45nm, the 45nm chip will have far more transistors and thus be more powerful.

you may have a smaller process size, but if the chip is too small it can still have less transistors than a chip of a larger process size and be less powerful.

Now there are exceptions, for example ibm had an edram technology breakthrough in 2008/9 which they claim allows their chips to effectively perform as if they had twice as many transistors... But for the most part this is a solid and reliably way to ballpark power estimates.

Now that that is established, its important to note how desert punk clearly doesnt understand it. Hes attempting to use slim model revisions of ps360 on a 45nm process as proof that the wii u is no more powerful or possibly weaker, despite both 360 and ps3 processors REALLY being introduced at the 90nm process size, while wii u is on a 45nm (cpu) and 40nm (gpu)

Without further ado, the punchline:



Xbox 360's valhalla mcm: 45nm 168 mm squared
Xbox 360 Jasper mcm: 65nm 256 mm squared
Xbox 360 original cpu+gpu xenon+Xenos 90nm 358 mm squared.
Wii u's McM 45nm and 40nm: 542 mm squared.

So, wii u's mcm is 4x bigger than 360's with transistors of roughly the same size, which means about 4x the transistors (more transistors=more power)

And, even more hilarious, wii u at 45/40nm chips combined are STILL BIGGER than 360's combined at 90nm.

yes, you may laugh. Its funny.

we could go on, further disembowling punks poor argument.

bringing up the ps2 ports of dreamcast games that were visually inferior and ran like moloasses uphill, and how punks poor logic would claim the dc more powerful than ps2

or bring up bad ps2 to ps3 ports like silent hill hd collection with its missing effects and botched textures and power point slideshow frame rate, and how punks poor pogic applied to that situation would dictate the ps3 no more powerful than ps2.

Or how all his beloved garbage ports were running on 3 cores on 360 but only using 1 of wii u's 3 cores

But its just not necessary in the face of his blundering of the most basic fundamentals.

[GAMER1984]

Definitely looking forward to what this console will show next year. I mean they have about minimum 8 months to polish up Bayonetta 2 and MK8 graphics before the games are released.... Can't wait to see the final product especially if pikmin 3 is anything to go by

Edited by GAMER1984, 20 July 2013 - 09:49 PM.

[RETROBLAST]

It is all very fascinating ... I think that this thread has helped me to feel more confidence in the Wii U in terms of power and potential ... I do hope that when 3rd parties come around to developing for the Wii U that eventually they will try to push it to the limits.  I also can't wait to see Nintendo itself pushing it and I think soon we will get a taste of what is to come...

[3Dude]

This photo mode is goimg to be a lot of fun. I really think all u games should have it.

[RETROBLAST]

When Irish eyes are smiling...

[TheDoritoKing]

It's different from other next-gen machines and lacks the user base of current ones, and there lays our problem; developers can't be bothered to do anything more than a slapped-together Xbox 360 port that nobody wants. 

Edited by TheDoritoKing, 21 July 2013 - 10:29 PM.

[RETROBLAST]

Now your avitar explains the situstion very well ... RUBBER NECKING DELAYS.

[Goodtwin]

Its so easy in a fanboy thread to make up information about how powerful a console is based on our own desires rather than reality. There are some specs we know as facts and they are the fabrication process is 45nm which is marginally worse or the same as ps3 and 360 and the main memory bandwidth is low at 12.8GB/s, a lot of the other spec is open to some sort of intepretation because none of it has been confirmed. So the real evidence is how the wii u is actually performing in comparison with 360 and PS3 and in that regard its performing badly often struggling to match them fully. Again you can intepret this as difficulties in developing for the wii u or lack of financial reward as another excuse for its low performance but at some point surely after a large number of games have been developed you will accept the wii u console is weak. It amazes me how hard people on this forum work to pretend the wii u is more powerful than it is.

 

If the wii u is sufficiently more powerful than current gen then current gen games should run on it easily not struggle. Developers should have so many additional resources that even if the game looks the same it has better frame rates and loading times. Clearly there is something horribly wrong with the wii u spec if it can not easily outperform consoles released over 7 years ago.

 

Do you even read anything that isnt negative about the Wii U?  If so, you may have realized that the Shin'en recently confirmed how the memory hierarchy works with the Wii U, and it effectively delivers better performance when you use the edram and cpu cache properly.  I am willing to accept that the PS4 and X1 are quite a bit more powerful than the Wii U, they have a lot more ram and a GPU that is 3-4 times more powerful, but to base the Wii U's performance on some sketchy ports its just insane and you know it.  We are less than a year into the Wii U, and its already showing more advanced software than the PS3 and 360 were able to create even after 6+ years of development familiarity.  So while the Wii U may only be a half step up compared to the other two consoles, its going to be a step above the 360 and PS3 without question.  Shin'en has already reveled  that the important information that you would need to understand before making an accurate assumption of what the Wii U is capable of.  Games ported/developed with incomplete dev kits and information that run on game engines designed around a PC'ish design wasnt going to shine on Wii U.  I blame Nintendo for not being better prepared, but its obvious that the Wii U is just now starting to come into its prime. 

[RETROBLAST]

I just picked up Black Ops 2 ... my first experience with a black ops title ... After spending about 40 minutes with it, visually it compares to any shooter I have on the PS3 but because I like the Wii U Pad better, the game feels better ... considering this is an early port, it can only get better from here on out ... WHAT NINTENDO NEEDS TO DO NOW IS MAKE THEIR OWN MATURE FPS, A NEW IP, NOT METROID ... and show offf what they can do with their own system .... push the hardware and show us just what the Wii U is capable o f!!!

Edited by RETROBLAST, 22 July 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[GAMER1984]

I just picked up Black Ops 2 ... my first experience with a black ops title ... After spending about 40 minutes with it, visually it compares to any shooter I have on the PS3 but because I like the Wii U Pad better, the game feels better ... considering this is an early port, it can only get better from here on out ... WHAT NINTENDO NEEDS TO DO NOW IS MAKE THEIR OWN MATURE FPS, A NEW IP, NOT METROID ... and show offf what they can do with their own system .... push the hardware and show us just what the Wii U is capable o f!!!

Lots of people asking for that but its not gonna happen. Just not what Nintendo is about now maybe a 3rd part exclusive FPS could happen but that's the only way. I wanted them to buy HVS the makers of the conduit for Wii. I think they could make a decent FPS on Wii U hardware. They did mention(HVS) they had news reguarding the conduit to reveal but this was last year. So maybe its in the works and we just have to wait. We will see but Nintendo needs to do something for fans of FPS games on their consoles that don't want to have to go out and buy another console just to get that experience.

Edited by GAMER1984, 22 July 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[RETROBLAST]

With Nintendo in trouble right now with their system , it may be just what they need to breath life into the Wii U ... They may very well have something up their sleve considering the creator of Zelda, Mario, and Pikmin stated he has an interest in making a FPS and also stated he is working on a new IP.

Edited by RETROBLAST, 22 July 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[Alex Atkin UK]

This photo mode is goimg to be a lot of fun. I really think all u games should have it.

 

Does it actually look like that in-game though or does photo mode apply post processing?

 

I have taken screen shots from Xbox 360 games that look much better than in-game as they turn on all the bells a whistles to render that one shot.  I can't remember which game it was but I recall one game it took something like 10 seconds to render the photo mode shot before saving it.  Completely misleading if you are trying to show off what the game looks like.

 

Still, I don't there is any doubt that the Wii U GPU is capable of far nicer shaders and lighting than PS360 ever could.  Those things have come a long way since the hardware in those consoles.

Edited by Alex Atkin UK, 26 July 2013 - 01:07 PM.