152 replies to this topic

[Mewbot]

PS4 specs are real, but they're not good. They probably won't be making games that look THAT much better than the Wii U's and I reckon that Nintendo will be getting third party support. 

[GAMER1984]

another thing to note is Xbox 720 is gonna almost mirrior Wii U in its design. that could be very good thing for Wii U in developers having no excuse for giving us next gen ports.

[tboss]

another thing to note is Xbox 720 is gonna almost mirrior Wii U in its design. that could be very good thing for Wii U in developers having no excuse for giving us next gen ports.

 

i noticed this somewhat, they are trying to just barly 1up wiiU. but form what i saw so far, they have faster main ram but likly slower Sram/eSram/Edram/Dram, or whatever they claim to be using. slow because its not embeded on die. 720 will have a stronger raw power GPU from what i saw as well but its marjin will be relitbily minor. 

[Alex Atkin UK]

The point I was trying to make is that with more RAM it could actually be cheaper to make the same game than on Wii U.

 

It means less optimising to squeeze the game into RAM, shorter in-game load times for games where most of the assets can just be pre-loaded at the start. 

 

Then of course there are the rare gems that ARE willing to risk it all making a game with an insane level of assets.

 

You cannot underestimate the benefits that may be gleaned from it being cheaper to develop on.  Although that does depend on if it sells well enough to begin with for it to have big enough audience to bother at all.

 

So while no, its not going to blow away what a high-end PC can do.  If anything it will actually cause high end PC games to look even better as the developers will spend more time tweaking the new graphical techniques to get the most out of the PS4 GPU, which will also mean improvements on the PC builds too.  Today using the newest tech on the PC means focusing on things in the PC build that cannot even be used on the consoles, on PS4 not as much and Wii U too.

 

So the Wii U will likely benefit from the PS4 launch and possibly more so from the Xbox, with its memory layout being closer to Wii U.   But I still expect that in a year or two, some games will not come over to Wii U because they are using more memory.

 

As for NeoGAF, pah, I tried to sign up over there and they rejected my account claiming I didn't meet their requirements.  I asked why and nobody responded.

Edited by Alex Atkin UK, 18 March 2013 - 05:10 PM.

[3Dude]

Alex Atkin UK, on 18 Mar 2013 - 11:22, said:The point I was trying to make is that with more RAM it could actually be cheaper to make the same game than on Wii U.
It means less optimising to squeeze the game into RAM, shorter in-game load times for games where most of the assets can just be pre-loaded at the start. 
Then of course there are the rare gems that ARE willing to risk it all making a game with an insane level of assets.
You cannot underestimate the benefits that may be gleaned from it being cheaper to develop on.  Although that does depend on if it sells well enough to begin with for it to have big enough audience to bother at all.
So while no, its not going to blow away what a high-end PC can do.  If anything it will actually cause high end PC games to look even better as the developers will spend more time tweaking the new graphical techniques to get the most out of the PS4 GPU, which will also mean improvements on the PC builds too.  Today using the newest tech on the PC means focusing on things in the PC build that cannot even be used on the consoles, on PS4 not as much and Wii U too.
So the Wii U will likely benefit from the PS4 launch and possibly more so from the Xbox, with its memory layout being closer to Wii U.   But I still expect that in a year or two, some games will not come over to Wii U because they are using more memory.
As for NeoGAF, pah, I tried to sign up over there and they rejected my account claiming I didn't meet their requirements.  I asked why and nobody responded.





This is all very true. These systems are indeed more powerful. But at the rate things are going, to do something like that, you are looking at a ridiculous game budget, something like youd need to sell 10 million copies to turn a profit.

And you are really giving the modern game developer entirely too much credit. The modern game developer, either shackled or brainwashed by the modern publishing house no longer has the capability to use system power to create new and innovative ways to play games. They simply make the same games over and over and over and over and over again, simply increasing graphical fidelity, whilst the games typically get smaller and smaller.

And the bigger the budget, the more thats at stake, like the things you are asking for, the more terrified go try new things a publisher becomes. Why try something new to make money when they can just cash in on another sequel or clone of something safe.

This actively STIFLES creativity, as creating a brand new fresh never done before game takes a lot more time and effort than simply rehashing a popular path. Time and money is spent on creating completely new gameplay, which is time and money rehashes spend on graphics and presentation, leaving the new game looking 'unacceptably polished' by the insatiable demands of the AAA Business model brainwashed gamer.

Thus because of erosion of the middle class games, pioneer games gain no traction, dont sell enough to warrant the polished sequel (once the creation of something original and new is out of the way, you can spend the entire next dev cycle improving on it instead of creating it) and fresh original game concept becomes 'poisonous' to publishers who stick with the current money grabbing status quo.

This has been the case throughout gaming history... But its never gotten this bad before. Its always just been a strut of me too clones until the next big thing came along...

But the cycle has become self perpetuating. Its going to continue until publishers begin destroying themselves... In fact.... That parts already begun.

Edited by 3Dude, 18 March 2013 - 05:57 PM.

[Robotic Sunshine Commander]

another thing to note is Xbox 720 is gonna almost mirrior Wii U in its design. that could be very good thing for Wii U in developers having no excuse for giving us next gen ports.

Do you have any links? That is interesting

[Desert Punk]

All leaked information so far has shown the Xbox 720 to be very similar to PS4 in architecture. The PS4 has the advantage that its GPU is 50% more powerful and uses faster memory. The xbox 720 appears to only use the optical drive once to install the game where as the ps4 can run games direct from the optical drive as well as downloads installed to hdd. There is no connection between the Xbox 720 and wii u. The wii u has a strong connection with Xbox 360 technically in that its easy to port games from 360 to wii u as they share a similar cpu and gpu.

[3Dude]

Desert Punk, on 24 Mar 2013 - 19:08, said:All leaked information so far has shown the Xbox 720 to be very similar to PS4 in architecture. The PS4 has the advantage that its GPU is 50% more powerful and uses faster memory. The xbox 720 appears to only use the optical drive once to install the game where as the ps4 can run games direct from the optical drive as well as downloads installed to hdd. There is no connection between the Xbox 720 and wii u. The wii u has a strong connection with Xbox 360 technically in that its easy to port games from 360 to wii u as they share a similar cpu and gpu.


lmfao.

please, please keep this up.

[GAMER1984]

Desert Punk, on 24 Mar 2013 - 19:08, said:All leaked information so far has shown the Xbox 720 to be very similar to PS4 in architecture. The PS4 has the advantage that its GPU is 50% more powerful and uses faster memory. The xbox 720 appears to only use the optical drive once to install the game where as the ps4 can run games direct from the optical drive as well as downloads installed to hdd. There is no connection between the Xbox 720 and wii u. The wii u has a strong connection with Xbox 360 technically in that its easy to port games from 360 to wii u as they share a similar cpu and gpu.


lmfao.

please, please keep this up.

There was a reason i didnt respond.

[3Dude]

GAMER1984, on 24 Mar 2013 - 20:03, said:There was a reason i didnt respond.




Nothing anyone could possibly do could discredit him better than this. And he did it to himself.

[GAMER1984]

GAMER1984, on 24 Mar 2013 - 20:03, said:There was a reason i didnt respond.




Nothing anyone could possibly do could discredit him better than this. And he did it to himself.

yeah it is what it is. im not a tech guru but i know enough to know Wii u is more similar to ps4 and 720 than it is to ps360. either way though my statement still stands Nintendo needs to show us what its made of at E3. im doubting we will see anything at GDC 13 which starts today i believe.

[3Dude]

GAMER1984, on 24 Mar 2013 - 20:07, said:yeah it is what it is. im not a tech guru but i know enough to know Wii u is more similar to ps4 and 720 than it is to ps360. either way though my statement still stands Nintendo needs to show us what its made of at E3. im doubting we will see anything at GDC 13 which starts today i believe.


Yeah. Ive felt that way awhile now, its extra frusterating that i KNOW they have some amazing stuff they are keeping under wraps, retro, ead.... Just show it already...
 

[GAMER1984]

GAMER1984, on 24 Mar 2013 - 20:07, said:yeah it is what it is. im not a tech guru but i know enough to know Wii u is more similar to ps4 and 720 than it is to ps360. either way though my statement still stands Nintendo needs to show us what its made of at E3. im doubting we will see anything at GDC 13 which starts today i believe.


Yeah. Ive felt that way awhile now, its extra frusterating that i KNOW they have some amazing stuff they are keeping under wraps, retro, ead.... Just show it already...
 

yeah really pissing me off and its puts them in a bad situation. becuase people are expecting to be blown away from these games... so if they dont its gonna be a crap storm. all we have heard people saying ( including myself) is wait until 1st and 2nd party games built from the ground up are shown they are gonna show Wii U's true potential. so they have to be VERY impressive! im looking forward to seeing what their in house engine(rumor developed by Retro) is goning to be capable of.

Edited by GAMER1984, 25 March 2013 - 02:08 AM.

[Alex Atkin UK]

Its a shame Luigis Mansion 2 didn't come to Wii U instead/as well as 3DS, I would rather play it on the big screen and it could look and play much better than on 3DS. 

 

I suppose there is nothing to stop them porting it across, but once its again its going to be much much later.

 

I can't help feeling that I am in EXACTLY the same position again with the Wii U as I was when I got the 3DS at launch, and Nintendo promised that wasn't going happen.  Although I think I will feel better when Lego City Undercover arrives, its in the post right now.

 

@3Dude

 

I don't think the gaming industry is QUITE as bad as you make out.  Yes the big publishers are narrow minded, greedy and pumping out the same old.  But we are already seeing new developers coming in with some different ideas.  Even Sony have a few gems and with games like Rain, it gives me hope that the PS4 at least might have room for some innovation.

 

I have always been a Sony skeptic, but they seem to really be making an effort now.  I just watched the Rain trailer and its nice to see this kind of game around.  Its not as original as they are making it out to be, but its still a far cry from the mainstream rinse and repeat games.  Although as I said before, I am still enjoying a lot of those games personally.  If anything I miss that there hasn't been another Project Gotham Racing or Burnout game.

 

While Xbox 360 is still my main console, I have serious concerns about the direction Microsoft is going.  Pushing apps on Xbox 360 but locking them behind a pay wall, then they are significantly worse than the free versions on other consoles.

Edited by Alex Atkin UK, 26 March 2013 - 09:11 AM.

[Fidu21]

It's the Blast Proccesing all over again, isn't it?

 

I believe the Wii U will have it's fair share of third party support, at least i hope so. a nice powerhouse game for the Wii U would be MGS: Ground Zeroes, i sure as hell would buy that game, even just a Wii U version of MGS4 would be pretty good for sales

[routerbad]

i noticed this somewhat, they are trying to just barly 1up wiiU. but form what i saw so far, they have faster main ram but likly slower Sram/eSram/Edram/Dram, or whatever they claim to be using. slow because its not embeded on die. 720 will have a stronger raw power GPU from what i saw as well but its marjin will be relitbily minor. 

They are supposedly using the same DDR3 that the Wii U has for main system RAM, just more of it.  Also, edRAM or SRAM most likely and supposedly on die with the GPU.  It will be very similar to the Wii U performance wise.

GAMER1984, on 24 Mar 2013 - 20:07, said:yeah it is what it is. im not a tech guru but i know enough to know Wii u is more similar to ps4 and 720 than it is to ps360. either way though my statement still stands Nintendo needs to show us what its made of at E3. im doubting we will see anything at GDC 13 which starts today i believe.


Yeah. Ive felt that way awhile now, its extra frusterating that i KNOW they have some amazing stuff they are keeping under wraps, retro, ead.... Just show it already...
 

Agreed, though we know Retro should be present at e3.

All leaked information so far has shown the Xbox 720 to be very similar to PS4 in architecture. The PS4 has the advantage that its GPU is 50% more powerful and uses faster memory. The xbox 720 appears to only use the optical drive once to install the game where as the ps4 can run games direct from the optical drive as well as downloads installed to hdd. There is no connection between the Xbox 720 and wii u. The wii u has a strong connection with Xbox 360 technically in that its easy to port games from 360 to wii u as they share a similar cpu and gpu.

The GPU isn't similar between the two at all.  The Wii U GPU is completely custom and is based on an architecture that is several generations of GPU's better than the 360 part.  360 was reliant almost entirely on the CPU.

 

The only similarity CPU wise between the two is that both are based on IBM Power architecture, but completely different generations of it, and the Wii U CPU is much more capable.

 

It has a similar instruction set, but that's pretty much where the similarity ends.  It is easier to port from Wii U to PS360 than it is from X86, but it isn't easy.

[Goodtwin]

The 360 and Wii U CPU are worlds apart in the theory of how a CPU should opperate.  The 360 CPU is a high clocked long pipeline while the Wii U CPU is low clocked short pipeline cpu. 

 

http://www.google.co...7,d.aWc&cad=rja

 

If you want a good easy to read breakdown on CPU pipelines click the link above.  The Wii U CPU has 5 stages in it CPU pipeline, the 360 has about 20.  The article stages that the sweet spot is right around 7 stages.  The short pipeline cpu will dominate the long pipeline in instructions per clock, but it is clocked slower.  Long pipeline plus high clock speed also means more heat, something a consoles wants to avoid.  They had a benchmark test of a Core 2 2.4 Ghz(short pipeline) vs a 3.7Ghz P4(long pipeline),and the Core 2 completed the work 35% faster than the P4, despite being clocked much slower.  The same thing applies to the lower clocked Wii U cpu, lower clock speed doesnt indicate less performance. 

 

The GPU is more modern and should be somewhat similar to the 360 GPU, but with a  heavier reliance on the edram.  Also, the GPU could have quite a few fixed functions built into the GPU, so that could be something that some developers have failed to utilize so far. 

 

Developers are still learning the hardware, and we have yet to see Retro or the EAD Galaxy team show off Wii U software.  We havent seen the best the Wii U can do, not by a long shot.  Retro will show off a game at E3 that showcases what the hardware is capable of.  Some people will be extatic over what they see, and others will be let down.  It just depends on where your expectations are. 
 

[Leo]

There's really no difference, actually...

[3Dude]

Alex Atkin UK, on 26 Mar 2013 - 03:13, said:Its a shame Luigis Mansion 2 didn't come to Wii U instead/as well as 3DS, I would rather play it on the big screen and it could look and play much better than on 3DS. 
I suppose there is nothing to stop them porting it across, but once its again its going to be much much later.
I can't help feeling that I am in EXACTLY the same position again with the Wii U as I was when I got the 3DS at launch, and Nintendo promised that wasn't going happen.  Although I think I will feel better when Lego City Undercover arrives, its in the post right now.
@3Dude
I don't think the gaming industry is QUITE as bad as you make out.  Yes the big publishers are narrow minded, greedy and pumping out the same old.  But we are already seeing new developers coming in with some different ideas.  Even Sony have a few gems and with games like Rain, it gives me hope that the PS4 at least might have room for some innovation.
I have always been a Sony skeptic, but they seem to really be making an effort now.  I just watched the Rain trailer and its nice to see this kind of game around.  Its not as original as they are making it out to be, but its still a far cry from the mainstream rinse and repeat games.  Although as I said before, I am still enjoying a lot of those games personally.  If anything I miss that there hasn't been another Project Gotham Racing or Burnout game.
While Xbox 360 is still my main console, I have serious concerns about the direction Microsoft is going.  Pushing apps on Xbox 360 but locking them behind a pay wall, then they are significantly worse than the free versions on other consoles.


Even sony has put out some gems.

SCE houses some of the greatest franchises and dev houses in the world.

Too bad they forgot about 90% of them this gen.

Id kill for a ps3 dark cloud, or alundra, or colony wars, or legend of dragoon, or ghost hunter, or last guardian.

Theyve forgone all that variety to crap out the same damn things over and over again.

This is the worst generation in gaming. It is completely disgusting. Because of this, this very generation, this next gen will be the first gen i dont buy every system. Thetes no point.

99% of the library is identical between sony, ms, and pc, and sony has suddenly, for some reasons become ashamed of their japanese studios and removed all variety by releasing uncharted, killzone, and god of war concepts over and over and over again.

No, sony has to earn my trust back after this gen.

[Desert Punk]

It's frankly pathetic how people here are clinging on to the wii u being a early next gen console in technology. There is not a single fact to support that. Yes there is a difference between wii u and 360 cpu's but they are basically the same architecture family where as PS4 and Xbox 720 are x86 based. A world apart.

 

Denial of reality here is unbelievable.  How many technically weak games have to be released on wii u before people start coming to their senses?

 

You do realise anyone reading this only has to look at wii u games and then read your comments to realise you are totally clueless and the more wii u games released the more clueless you look. The excuse that the wii u hardware is new can only last for so long, development hardware has been available long before launch. Even Nintendo's own wii u titles are technically weak and even PS3 and 360 owners can make the case that their consoles are in some ways more powerful than wii u. So far nothing has been achieved on wii u that comes close to the exclusive 360 and PS3 titles that have been written from the ground up for those consoles.  I think the best we have so for is Need for Speed Most Wanted which is not a cpu intensive game and is still running at 720p 30fps like the 360 and PS3 even if the textures used are PC version textures thanks to the 1GB of system memory. So we have one enhancement so far thanks to extra memory. The IGN review stated the visual difference couldn't really be seen though, probably because of the native resolution.