53 replies to this topic

[Aiddon]

It isn't which is the point I was making.  It's actually very easy to code for, but a little harder to completely optimize (considering its the platform with the most divergent architecture and the most custom logic, and actually incorporates bold new hardware direction) whereas you'll see more out of the other platforms earlier on but it will more than likely stagnate, because more RAM can only take you to a point where you have a beautifully detailed slideshow presentation, it doesn't actually help performance at all.  The GPU performance difference for what we know of the Wii U GPU logic and the PS4's advertised specification aren't spread enough to make a big difference performance wise, especially considering they can both technically do all of the same things, however Nintendo has added custom logic to make certain things more efficient (we can speculate about what it is, but I think this makes sense as is).

 

i.e., too many devs are obsessed with doing only brute force methods, which there's a limit to how much you can do with that. Like with the Wii architects realizing that consoles were going to start seeing diminishing returns in graphical quality boosts, they realized that simply through ever increasing amounts of RAM at the thing is not going to help performance further down the line. Best gt used to it NOW rather than later.

[Goodtwin]

Your modern developer employee is no longer required to be highly skilled in C++ programming like they were back in the day, they are required to know how to use the tools and create content using those tools.  Its kind of like a using a web page creator versus knowing how to write compentently in html.  Yes, you can get good results using a web page building program, but you will never be able to optimize your web page as effectively as someone who knows how to do it all in html.  Someone made mention that games are being created in a line assembly fashion, and thats 100% true.  You may have 500+ people working on a game, but they are really just using tools to create content, they arent wiriting much code these days.  The skill of writing code is becoming less and less common in the game industry.  Lets face it, to be a very good C++ programmer your pretty much a math wizzard, and there are only so many people that will be good enough at it to effectively work on modern games at the code level, but when you have accessible tools the level of competence required goes down.  The fact is that society wont procude enough C++ guru's to accomodate 500+ member development teams, but the amount of people in the workforce who can learn and produce content using middleware is far greater.  I am sure there are lots of schools these days that dont even go into great detail on coding in C++, but are instead focusing on using the middleware tools effectively.   

[routerbad]

Its not just that they werent optimized for eye level mode, but that eye level mode is less than an inch off the ground, there really isnt much practical you can do about the anisotropy at that point.

ainisotropic filtering does wonders at 6 feet, or even for crouching at say 3 feet... but an inch off the texture at that oblique angle? Thats a tough situation.

Agreed, the only way to change that would be to add geometry, blades of grass rather than flat textures, for everything other than basic ground cover the textures are already very well done for both perspectives.  Adding that geometry would obscure the characters, though, and popping it in only for the first person camera would be useless.

Your modern developer employee is no longer required to be highly skilled in C++ programming like they were back in the day, they are required to know how to use the tools and create content using those tools.  Its kind of like a using a web page creator versus knowing how to write compentently in html.  Yes, you can get good results using a web page building program, but you will never be able to optimize your web page as effectively as someone who knows how to do it all in html.  Someone made mention that games are being created in a line assembly fashion, and thats 100% true.  You may have 500+ people working on a game, but they are really just using tools to create content, they arent wiriting much code these days.  The skill of writing code is becoming less and less common in the game industry.  Lets face it, to be a very good C++ programmer your pretty much a math wizzard, and there are only so many people that will be good enough at it to effectively work on modern games at the code level, but when you have accessible tools the level of competence required goes down.  The fact is that society wont procude enough C++ guru's to accomodate 500+ member development teams, but the amount of people in the workforce who can learn and produce content using middleware is far greater.  I am sure there are lots of schools these days that dont even go into great detail on coding in C++, but are instead focusing on using the middleware tools effectively.   

While this is true for most cases, there are still engineers working on games that do plenty of bare metal programming to get more performance out of hardware than is feasible using just stock tools.  They can use the stock shaders and fragments available in an engine or dev environment, or they can write their own.  Most larger publishers seem to be simply all using the same stock shaders and color palettes for game design, though.

[Cloud Windfoot Omega]

Agreed, the only way to change that would be to add geometry, blades of grass rather than flat textures, for everything other than basic ground cover the textures are already very well done for both perspectives.  Adding that geometry would obscure the characters, though, and popping it in only for the first person camera would be useless.

While this is true for most cases, there are still engineers working on games that do plenty of bare metal programming to get more performance out of hardware than is feasible using just stock tools.  They can use the stock shaders and fragments available in an engine or dev environment, or they can write their own.  Most larger publishers seem to be simply all using the same stock shaders and color palettes for game design, though.

MONEY MONEY MONEY

 

 

 build your own? MONEY

 

use a middle? LESS MONEY

[routerbad]

MONEY MONEY MONEY

 

 

 build your own? MONEY

 

use a middle? LESS MONEY

Would you consider Shin 'en a super rich game developer?  Probably not, but they write all of their own engines.  Bare metal programming does cost at first to acquire talented programmers, but it pays dividends in quality and polish if used properly.  That's not to say there is something wrong with using the development environment tools to make certain processes faster, it certainly helps and can provide a higher standard of quality.

[Cloud Windfoot Omega]

Would you consider Shin 'en a super rich game developer?  Probably not, but they write all of their own engines.  Bare metal programming does cost at first to acquire talented programmers, but it pays dividends in quality and polish if used properly.  That's not to say there is something wrong with using the development environment tools to make certain processes faster, it certainly helps and can provide a higher standard of quality.

Well its more about paying off the large dev teams and  other   random crap they like to pay for, so the longer a game takes to make the more it costs them,  using a pre existing engine costs them less time and money.

[routerbad]

Well its more about paying off the large dev teams and  other   random crap they like to pay for, so the longer a game takes to make the more it costs them,  using a pre existing engine costs them less time and money.

Agreed.  I think dev teams as well as marketing budgets are becoming extremely over inflated.  Obviously to the point where they aren't able to even recoup costs on games most of the time.  

[Aiddon]

Agreed.  I think dev teams as well as marketing budgets are becoming extremely over inflated.  Obviously to the point where they aren't able to even recoup costs on games most of the time.  

 

One of the problems regarding dev teams is that they're just throwing HUNDREDS at development, thinking it's an easy way to get things out faster. It's like trying to make a cake and thinking you can cut down on the baking time by just doubling the temperature. Doesn't work like that. For SOME games, large dev teams are inevitable (like Grand Theft Auto, The Elder Scrolls, and ANY MMO), but I don't see why we need 600+ man dev teams for everything. Pubs have become one-trick ponies by just doing blockbuster after blockbuster instead of doing blockbusters, but also SMALLER projects throughout the years.

[routerbad]

One of the problems regarding dev teams is that they're just throwing HUNDREDS at development, thinking it's an easy way to get things out faster. It's like trying to make a cake and thinking you can cut down on the baking time by just doubling the temperature. Doesn't work like that. For SOME games, large dev teams are inevitable (like Grand Theft Auto, The Elder Scrolls, and ANY MMO), but I don't see why we need 600+ man dev teams for everything. Pubs have become one-trick ponies by just doing blockbuster after blockbuster instead of doing blockbusters, but also SMALLER projects throughout the years.

Very true, an unsustainable business model.  You have to create a breadth of properties that appeal to different demographics to stay consistently profitable.  Many publishers rely on ONE demographic and throw all of their money at making games for them, when to be honest many of them don't spend a whole lot of money on games to begin with.

[tboss]

Would you consider Shin 'en a super rich game developer?  Probably not, but they write all of their own engines.  Bare metal programming does cost at first to acquire talented programmers, but it pays dividends in quality and polish if used properly.  That's not to say there is something wrong with using the development environment tools to make certain processes faster, it certainly helps and can provide a higher standard of quality.

 

but it is expensive to pay people at Shin'en's level to make it. 90k salary on the low end, verses a bunch of guys spamming textures and completly bypass the expensive guys, ends up being alot cheaper.

[Socalmuscle]

i really feel seriously Nintendo needs to(now that they have updated tools) hold abasic development class for Wii U. because its seems developers are dumbfounded when it comes to developing for this console. Im not a developer and never ahd developed for a HD console but can it be this hard? they seem like they have no idea how to make games run properly on this console.

 

Absolutely.

 

Apple does this every year - with engineers on hand and coaches.

 

And they have arguably the largest developer support of anyone, anywhere.

 

It really helps.

 

Nintendo should set up at least one developer conference (with incentives) and take studios by the hand and walk them through it. Q&A for developers to be able to ask questions related to their specific game code troubles would be tremendous.

 

I've never heard of Nintendo doing this except on case by case help basis.  But it would be awesome.

[GAMER1984]

Absolutely.
 
Apple does this every year - with engineers on hand and coaches.
 
And they have arguably the largest developer support of anyone, anywhere.
 
It really helps.
 
Nintendo should set up at least one developer conference (with incentives) and take studios by the hand and walk them through it. Q&A for developers to be able to ask questions related to their specific game code troubles would be tremendous.
 
I've never heard of Nintendo doing this except on case by case help basis.  But it would be awesome.

But it's Nintendo... It makes too much sense for them to do it.

[Socalmuscle]

But it's Nintendo... It makes too much sense for them to do it.

True. Nintendo is as much about philosophy as it is about business.

And often philosophy overrides business sense there.

They confuse me often. Lol

I really think they need to restructure though. A hardware department that is focused in simply making the best gaming hardware, a software department that is focused on the best games and user experience, and a develop relations dept.

That's game focus. Not including marketing, r&d, etc.

[GAMER1984]

True. Nintendo is as much about philosophy as it is about business.

And often philosophy overrides business sense there.

They confuse me often. Lol

I really think they need to restructure though. A hardware department that is focused in simply making the best gaming hardware, a software department that is focused on the best games and user experience, and a develop relations dept.

That's game focus. Not including marketing, r&d, etc.

Totally agree the reality is if they had a 3rd party ambassador like what Dan Aldaman does with Indies then we would have VERY good 3d party support. It kinds of baffels me how much support they are showing to indies and giving them everything they want to get their games on Nintendo consoles. Now if they gave half that energy to bigger 3d parties what would be the result