39 replies to this topic

[NintendoReport]

can some one please explain to me what edram is? and how it functions? and what are the advantges of having edram ?

and thank you everyone for educating me

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=wii+u+edram

 

 

http://hdwarriors.co...ined-by-shinen/

[GAMER1984]

I'm saying it is possible however it is highly unlikely, I don't think it does myself.

Did you not see my above pose with multiple developers working on games for U confirming it has dx11 type features but not native obviously 

[grahamf]

Why does it matter? Everything we know about the consoles can be re-interpreted anyway you need to suit your beliefs, and any alternative interpretations will be rejected. I know it's hard, but just let it go. It doesn't make a difference. The gamecube was the most powerful console of it's time and was ignored by developers, and the Wii was the weakest and was in everyone's home and developer all made games for it. Just play the games you enjoy playing, and don't waste time trying to defend your choices to popular belief. 25% of Americans believe the earth is less than 6,000 years old, so that shows how accurate popular belief is. No matter what, Nintendo has sound finances and is churning out the games we want.

[tboss]

simple version for Edram.

 

its pretty much on die memory to hold small redundant information for the GPU/CPU. 

 

Inshort it stores redundant information to clear up bandwidth hogs, thus raising effective bandwidth, and help the CPU/GPU in general get some things done faster.

[JoshZebra]

Did you not see my above pose with multiple developers working on games for U confirming it has dx11 type features but not native obviously 

 

Did you not see my post? I again did not say the Wii U had Dx11, I'm explaining that from the perspective of playing it you wouldn't notice if it did because they both output the same to the eye.  However there are differences but to come across them you'd have to be on the behind the scenes level.  And that the features are 'similar', not the exact same, they're two different programs but they both relatively do the same thing.

Edited by JoshZebra, 01 April 2014 - 02:15 PM.

[3Dude]

simple version for Edram.
 
its pretty much on die memory to hold small redundant information for the GPU/CPU. 
 
Inshort it stores redundant information to clear up bandwidth hogs, thus raising effective bandwidth, and help the CPU/GPU in general get some things done faster.

Its also important to note that ram embedded on the processor itself is very, very fast. Bandwidth and speed are actually not the same thing.

There are 3 values to consider when talking about ram, and they are all very important:

1. Capacity: how much is there?
2: Bandwidth: How much can be moved in a go?
3: Latency: How long do we have to wait between go's?

Embedded ram right on the processor has very, very, low latency. So low, that if you had/wanted too, you could actually use/ fall back on that that ram (provided you had an opening), which is primarily storage/data moving ram for operations purposes and not suffer a huge penalty (500 cycles like ps360), like using it for a cpu scratchpad.

[Mahmoodinho98]

Thanks guys for all your help, my final question, what should i do know to start my career as a game developer?

[Aplg8]

Don't forget to mention the fallopian tubes are made from fiber optic cable increasing flow by a factor of 10.

Edited by Aplg8, 04 April 2014 - 12:59 PM.

[NintendoReport]

Thanks guys for all your help, my final question, what should i do know to start my career as a game developer?

 

EA IS GOD.

[3Dude]

EA IS GOD.

That is not a problem.

[MorbidGod]

is it true that Wii U gpu is faster than that of xbox one and ps4 or is it faster than what we usually expected?

From all the rumors and "confirmations" the Wii U GPU was what the others are based off. Meaning, we have the older version. That's usually how AMD/ATi works. They take their best of one generation and then use that as the basis for the next generation. And, from a generation to generation on video cards it generally doesn't mean that big of a leap.

That's why, in this case, the Wii U shouldn't be that far behind the Xbox One and PS4. That, yes it will have higher resolution and better quality, but its like the PS4 on high settings and the Wii U on low settings.

The main problem is Nintendo designed it sparingly, whereas Microsoft and Sony gave developers more then what they need. Which was an over sight, sure, but not a major problem.

[dragomix]

Ok, i didn't want to start new topic, so we can discus it here...

 

It clearly states that CryEngine 3 is working in DX11 32bit mode. Any chance that there is something we don't know about Wii U's GPU?

[3Dude]

dragomix, on 20 Apr 2014 - 7:43 PM, said:
Ok, i didn't want to start new topic, so we can discus it here...


It clearly states that CryEngine 3 is working in DX11 32bit mode. Any chance that there is something we don't know about Wii U's GPU?

There is a lot we dont know about the gpu. But this has nothing to do with it.

This is nothing more than the result of mass confusion and ignorance created by the gaming media's and modern 'developers' stupidity, ignorance, and ultimate misinformation. So much misinformation. So many people who think the games media and bottom ringers on third hand c teams are standbup and are telling facts, when in reality, all they are doing is committing a load of bs to memory and their beliefs.

There are so many things to this that need to be known to form a whole picture im not sure where to start....

That is not the wii u the game is being run on Its a software development kit, yes, it is a wii u sdk, but its still basically a pc, just with certain specifications. When the game is run on the wii u it wont be done with direct x. Because nintendo would never pay ms to license it (unlike these developers big red button, who have). Thats all it means.

DX11, or more specifically direct 3d 11, is not magic. It is nothing more than a collection of effects and other conveniences wrapped up in a package. Its being used for convenience, that is all it is. MS employees write effects and optimizations for other people to use so they dont have to write their own.

Unfortunately, just because you know how to use the effects provided by ms in dx, does NOT mean you know how to write them from scratch. If you cant program your own shaders, you have no hope of actually porting a dx title to something not dx... And the ever increasing presence of direct x, and dwindling presence of open gl means developers who actually know how to write effects from the ground up, instead of simply calling upon a routine pre provided by a microsoft software engineer, are being reduced to an ever smaller, ever older population.

These 'developers' who are constantly claiming wii u cant handle their dx whatever projects are actually just too stupid to figure out how to write the effects from dx they want to use, in open gl, and so when nintendo's barebones gx2 library first arrived, and they saw no effects of type whatever, they claimed it was underpowered and couldnt be done.

There is absolutely no effect in dx11 or dx whatever, that cant be done on ANY programmable shader gpu of reasonable power and modern feature set.

Sonic Boom will not be running on dx11 on wii u. That is simply a convenience for the dev team. They will export those assets and effects to the custom wii u gx2 based cryengine 3, where they will run on custom written equivilents big red button wrote, just like how they wrote a split screen engine to be added.

Being able to use dx11 on the devkit just means one part of the team can continue making the actual game, while the others add custom applications to the library that will transfer the dx11 effects to their gx2 equivilents.

[GAMER1984]

There is a lot we dont know about the gpu. But this has nothing to do with it.

This is nothing more than the result of mass confusion and ignorance created by the gaming media's and modern 'developers' stupidity, ignorance, and ultimate misinformation. So much misinformation. So many people who think the games media and bottom ringers on third hand c teams are standbup and are telling facts, when in reality, all they are doing is committing a load of bs to memory and their beliefs.

There are so many things to this that need to be known to form a whole picture im not sure where to start....

That is not the wii u the game is being run on Its a software development kit, yes, it is a wii u sdk, but its still basically a pc, just with certain specifications. When the game is run on the wii u it wont be done with direct x. Because nintendo would never pay ms to license it (unlike these developers big red button, who have). Thats all it means.

DX11, or more specifically direct 3d 11, is not magic. It is nothing more than a collection of effects and other conveniences wrapped up in a package. Its being used for convenience, that is all it is. MS employees write effects and optimizations for other people to use so they dont have to write their own.

Unfortunately, just because you know how to use the effects provided by ms in dx, does NOT mean you know how to write them from scratch. If you cant program your own shaders, you have no hope of actually porting a dx title to something not dx... And the ever increasing presence of direct x, and dwindling presence of open gl means developers who actually know how to write effects from the ground up, instead of simply calling upon a routine pre provided by a microsoft software engineer, are being reduced to an ever smaller, ever older population.

These 'developers' who are constantly claiming wii u cant handle their dx whatever projects are actually just too stupid to figure out how to write the effects from dx they want to use, in open gl, and so when nintendo's barebones gx2 library first arrived, and they saw no effects of type whatever, they claimed it was underpowered and couldnt be done.

There is absolutely no effect in dx11 or dx whatever, that cant be done on ANY programmable shader gpu of reasonable power and modern feature set.

Sonic Boom will not be running on dx11 on wii u. That is simply a convenience for the dev team. They will export those assets and effects to the custom wii u gx2 based cryengine 3, where they will run on custom written equivilents big red button wrote, just like how they wrote a split screen engine to be added.

Being able to use dx11 on the devkit just means one part of the team can continue making the actual game, while the others add custom applications to the library that will transfer the dx11 effects to their gx2 equivilents.

 

One of the best and most informative post I have ever read on this site. It is sad that the Wii U underpowered Stigma still lives but it is what it is at this point. still cannot wait for the likes of MK8, X, Bayo2, fast racing neo, Project cars, and watchdogs so we can see what the console can do when pused a little bit more.

[dragomix]

@3Dude: I thought about feature set. I know DX is microsoft api and microsoft is the only company that can use it, so no dx for ether Sony or Nintendo, but if feature set of Wii U GPU is same as DX11, than there is something new that we didnt know. Till now, everyone were talking about feature set equivalent to DX10.1. I know there are not many differences between the two, but Wii U's GPU can be more modern in design than we thought.

[GAMER1984]

@3Dude: I thought about feature set. I know DX is microsoft api and microsoft is the only company that can use it, so no dx for ether Sony or Nintendo, but if feature set of Wii U GPU is same as DX11, than there is something new that we didnt know. Till now, everyone were talking about feature set equivalent to DX10.1. I know there are not many differences between the two, but Wii U's GPU can be more modern in design than we thought.

 

Actually we have know this for a little while now. Multiple developers (indie) have supported Wii U and its ability to support DX11 type features. As 3dude stated the difference between dx11 features and actually writing the effects yourself. I do believe from a 3rd party standpoint we have not see anything of what the Wii U can do and I can only hope games like fast racing neo and project cars do more to help erase the Wii U underpowered Stigma. Also if you go back kto even before the console was released no dev actually ever complained about the GPU. They all have stated the GPU was pretty decent. We are just starting to scratch the surface. The Wii U is more like ps360 as over the years if developed right and pushed we should see games look better and better. It is not a straight PC architecture like ps4 where you can get code running a lot faster with Wii U you actually have to know what you are doing.

[3Dude]

@3Dude: I thought about feature set. I know DX is microsoft api and microsoft is the only company that can use it, so no dx for ether Sony or Nintendo, but if feature set of Wii U GPU is same as DX11, than there is something new that we didnt know. Till now, everyone were talking about feature set equivalent to DX10.1. I know there are not many differences between the two, but Wii U's GPU can be more modern in design than we thought.

Thats because those people are too damn stupid to realize (Or they are people who placed their trust in these people, assuming they were competent and knew what they were talking about) that effects written at a certain point in time for a certain version of dx 99% have nothing to do with actual hardware, you LITERALLY have to find a REAL revolutionary leap, like the introduction of gpu's, or the switch to programmable shaders, to REALLY need new hardware (and not just more resources), despite what marketing teams desperately want them to think.

ANY PROGRAMMABLE SHADER GPU can do ANY EFFECT provided it has the resources. Its PROGRAMMABLE.

This narrative thats been scripted by marketing dept. of newly written effects only working on the months most recent processor only makes sense in the context of fixed function gpu's, where what effect the gpu can perform is determined when it is manufactured, like the gamecube and wii. Which, aside from the wii, have all dissapeared the way of the dinosaur many years ago.

[dragomix]

Thats because those people are too damn stupid to realize (Or they are people who placed their trust in these people, assuming they were competent and knew what they were talking about) that effects written at a certain point in time for a certain version of dx 99% have nothing to do with actual hardware, you LITERALLY have to find a REAL revolutionary leap, like the introduction of gpu's, or the switch to programmable shaders, to REALLY need new hardware (and not just more resources), despite what marketing teams desperately want them to think.

ANY PROGRAMMABLE SHADER GPU can do ANY EFFECT provided it has the resources. Its PROGRAMMABLE.

This narrative thats been scripted by marketing dept. of newly written effects only working on the months most recent processor only makes sense in the context of fixed function gpu's, where what effect the gpu can perform is determined when it is manufactured, like the gamecube and wii. Which, aside from the wii, have all dissapeared the way of the dinosaur many years ago.

What about more modern shader design? All the other advantages that came with DX11 GPU's?

[Raiden]

We have known for good long while..well not long after FFXV we have known WiiU can do the equivalent of DX11 effects as a few indies found out. So that's old news.

[3Dude]

dragomix, on 21 Apr 2014 - 2:53 PM, said:
What about more modern shader design? All the other advantages that came with DX11 GPU's?

Modern shader design is more effecient. thats literally all we got going. We are skimming the bottom of the well until we hit another huge breakthrough.

The wii u (it looks almost certain right now) uses very long instruction word 5, or vliw5. WHat this means, is that each simd 'unti' or 'shader' as it is called, is comprised of 5 alu's.



Well, this turned out to be an effecient use of space, but an ineffecient use of the shaders. Because of things like dependencies (problems that require a variable that hasnt been calculated yet), or cache misses, it would turn out that on average, only 3 or 4 of the 5 units would actually be able work, while the others just sat there, not doing anything. Literally 2-3/5ths of your shaders not even doing anything!

So they switched to arranging their blocks in units of 4 instead. That was called vliw4.

Now, on average, 3-4 of these will work (for the same reasons as stated above), and only the occasional odd man out is left not doing anything. so, now you have 3/4's of your shaders working (with the occasional 2/4 or ugh, 1/4 working). So, even by having the same exact number of shaders, and the same exact resources, you get a 25% increase in performance.

Heres a diagram showing how ineffecient vliw shaders can be if used sloppily. This is vliw4, if it was 5, youd have even more unused shaders. Actually, before that, I need to post a diagram of the wavefronts, and how they are dependent on each others results.



Okay, now we feed the wavefronts into the vliw4.


Now remember, you can add one more unused unit to each of those if this was vliw5... (Which is why they got rid of it, it made no sense to organize that way when almost half the damn things never got used!)

While this is nice, it still literally has no effect whatsoever on what effects these gpu's can do. Its just one has more performance than the other.

Now we have 'GCN' or graphics core next, or the incredibly non descriptive, ridiculously marketing named architecture modern gpu's, as well as ps4 and xbone are using.

Despite its horrible, horrible gimmick name, its a pretty good job.

Using those same wavefronts, we feed it into a gcn architecture.


Well, gcn has a compute unit, that can ORGANIZE wavefronts, and single out ones that would cause a stall because they are dependent on others, and put them on hold and execute other more viable wavefronts instead, that dont need to wait, and then once the needed data comes in, the wavefronts put on hold can go through. There is more to it, but this is the basic gist of the situation.

So now, we have much more effecient use of the shader units, with most of them being used all the time.

Very cool. Less shader units go a lot farther, and more shader units, even farther still.

But again, this does NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO PROVIDE EFFECTS VLIW ARCHITECTURE CAN NOT DO. There is no revolution here. There is no 3d accelerateted hardware vs... Not. THere is no programmable shader vs matrox fixed function. Its just more effecient. They can do the same things, so its not a matter of can it do this effect, its a matter of, how many can it do at once?

Now, I dont know what the heck is REALLY going on in wii u's gpu. All signs point to using a vliw5 architecture with 128 shader units... Except... The games visuals. Mario kart 8 is mindblowing for these specs if they are true. I dont know how they are doing it, but if they are using vliw5 architecture, they must have found a way to increase effeciency. I dont know what it is. Maybe they have AMAZIBALLS prefetchers, maybe its the on the same die cpu and l3 edram cache. I dont know. But its not your run of the mill vliw5 performance. At least not what Nintendo has been showing.

That being said, the 'dx11 range gpu' crap is just that. It is LITERALLY barely anything more than marketing to get people to think their year old gpu is somehow horribly, irrefutably, useless and outdated (Lets face it, thanks to ps4/xbone being WAAAAYYYY underpowered compared to ps360 reveal point in time, several year old computers now have a free ride for another console generation, if you are packing an icore, you are good to go, with minimal upgrades of ram and maybe a mid range gpu in a few years) and buy the 'dx11 compatable' gpu like the good little lemming they are.