68 replies to this topic

[KeptMyWiiUAndLeftTheForums]

,it's only the die hard Nintendo fans who will pick up third party games on Wii U either to support the third party or genuinely play the games.

This is not a good way to support your opinion.

[DéliopT]

When Sony and MS came into the scene, they did 2 things: listen to developers and create na ecosystem for their own (3rd party games) to succeed.

In other words, they put out the HW and business model that pleased developers and they created a market for themselves by marketing, courting devs and most importantly, they invested in games that catered to that same market. And those games were of the type that Nintendo never meant to do.

 

Why has Nintendo failed since the SNES?

Because there was a new market that Nintendo simply overlooked.
Basically, Nintendo did it`s own thing, as they always did. The problem is, the competition - which started with Sega - didn`t do that.
They went after the gamers, they offered exclusives games of the franchises gamers were starting to love. They went after developers and sold them a market.
And because they did that, they won.

 

Nintendo isn't losing marketshare because of the mistakes of the past, they are losing marketshare and even mindshare, because they are always one step behind their competition - when they actually decide to go after that competition.
Until Nintendo realises that gamers want all the online thingies, (exclusive) shooters and other games like GoW, Uncharted, Halo, Destiny, etc., Nintendo is always going to be a second choice not just for gamers, but for developers.

 

People aren`t going to buy, in droves, a console, that will have about a handful of great exclusive franchises and about, little more the same number in games, of said franchises per generation.
Nintendo franchises can sell a good number of consoles, but they aren`t diverse enough to attract millions of gamers, anymore.

[Mewbot]

Name-calling isn't the basis of my argument, its facts unlike yours which is 90% subjectivity.

Facts.

"If you think those games are better than Wind Waker then you're kidding yourself" - opinion

 

"Rayman Legends was pretty irrelevent" - opinion "and not big sales-wise" - It still sold better on the Wii U than the other versions earlier on.

 

"The animal crossing/splatoon team made Nintendo Land" - Splatoon is made by a new development team, created for the sole reason of creating new experiences.

 

"You saying all PS4 games are bad is dumb" - name-calling again "you don't own a PS4 and are going of the masses opinions" - the masses opinions are more correct then yours will ever be.

 

"Killzone and Destiny are way more gamer-focused than any of the Nintendo party games" - opinion.

 

"Nintendo more likely chose Donkey Kong because it would sell better" - Retro chose Donkey Kong, not Nintendo. They knew they had more ideas to play with for Donkey Kong, and simply didn't feel like making a Metroid game at that point in time. Had they made a Metroid game it probably would have been uninspired and boring.

 

"If I were to critique a game such as ZombiU you would tell me to play it myself" - ZombiU was pretty bad IMHO.

 

So... Facts, eh?

[KeptMyWiiUAndLeftTheForums]

Nintendo failed since the SNES

I stopped here. I'm sorry but that is straight up not at all in anyway true. In fact I'm pretty sure Nintendo is the company that has made the most money off video games in the world to date and they certainly didn't make all that money by the end of the SNES era. That's one strange looking failure.

[Atticus]

Why has Nintendo failed since the SNES?

 

Wait what?

[Colinx]

Facts.

"If you think those games are better than Wind Waker then you're kidding yourself" - opinion You can say this is subjective, but you know that you do not believe any of those games are better than WW.

 

"Rayman Legends was pretty irrelevent" - opinion "and not big sales-wise" - It still sold better on the Wii U than the other versions earlier on. This isn't an opinion. According to VG Chartz, the PS3 version is currently the top selling version with over 30,000 copies between the two. Also, the game sold pretty mediocre amongst all platforms.

 

"The animal crossing/splatoon team made Nintendo Land" - Splatoon is made by a new development team, created for the sole reason of creating new experiences. Actually, no it's not. It's team is composed of several young developers from Software Development 2. who created Animal Crossing and Splatoon.

 

"You saying all PS4 games are bad is dumb" - name-calling again Boo hoo!  "you don't own a PS4 and are going of the masses opinions" - the masses opinions are more correct then yours will ever be. Not an opinion.

 

"Killzone and Destiny are way more gamer-focused than any of the Nintendo party games" - opinion. I guess if you really want to call this an opinion, go ahead. But who disagrees that Wii Party U and Nintendo Land are more hardcore than Killzone or Destiny. Seems to me like you're just digging to find any opinions, if you're gonna find some at least make sure you can back yourself up.

 

"Nintendo more likely chose Donkey Kong because it would sell better" - Retro chose Donkey Kong, not Nintendo. They knew they had more ideas to play with for Donkey Kong, and simply didn't feel like making a Metroid game at that point in time. Had they made a Metroid game it probably would have been uninspired and boring. In regards to the original argument, if Nintendo(who at the end of the day makes the decisions) was more focused about making a game for the core Nintendo/hardcore gamers, it's obvious that Metroid would have been a better choice than Donkey Kong. Ironically, you state that i'm the one making the opinions but saying "Had they made a Metroid game it probably would have been uninspired and boring." is rather hypocritical, especially since their game wasn't even a Metroid game so who are we to even know if that would have been the case.

 

 

"If I were to critique a game such as ZombiU you would tell me to play it myself" - ZombiU was pretty bad IMHO. It was an example, as if I had said Super Mario 3D World was an awful game and everyone else has reviewed it and said it was crap, you would have told me to play it myself. It wasn't a literal statement, read between the lines. 

 

So... Facts, eh? Yup.

Comments in bold. 

Very submissive of you to ignore practically the whole logic of my argument and take a single line then point out everything you thought could be considered an opinion and wrapped it up as you're argument.

When Sony and MS came into the scene, they did 2 things: listen to developers and create na ecosystem for their own (3rd party games) to succeed.

In other words, they put out the HW and business model that pleased developers and they created a market for themselves by marketing, courting devs and most importantly, they invested in games that catered to that same market. And those games were of the type that Nintendo never meant to do.

 

Why has Nintendo failed since the SNES?

Because there was a new market that Nintendo simply overlooked.
Basically, Nintendo did it`s own thing, as they always did. The problem is, the competition - which started with Sega - didn`t do that.
They went after the gamers, they offered exclusives games of the franchises gamers were starting to love. They went after developers and sold them a market.
And because they did that, they won.

 

Nintendo isn't losing marketshare because of the mistakes of the past, they are losing marketshare and even mindshare, because they are always one step behind their competition - when they actually decide to go after that competition.
Until Nintendo realises that gamers want all the online thingies, (exclusive) shooters and other games like GoW, Uncharted, Halo, Destiny, etc., Nintendo is always going to be a second choice not just for gamers, but for developers.

 

People aren`t going to buy, in droves, a console, that will have about a handful of great exclusive franchises and about, little more the same number in games, of said franchises per generation.
Nintendo franchises can sell a good number of consoles, but they aren`t diverse enough to attract millions of gamers, anymore.

Great post, some of the others failed to realize that you weren't taking about financial figures you were speaking about their relation to 3rd party developers, something only one who actually read the post would have comprehended.

Edited by Colinx, 30 September 2014 - 06:03 PM.

[Lightning_Ninja]

Without discussing what led to the current state where 3rd parties don't naturally put their games on Nintendo's consoles (which is a large ball of wax in and of itself):

 

3rd party companies don't believe their games will sell on Nintendo's platforms, so even if they do put their games on it, they usually make a bad port because they don't want to spend extra money

 

Nintendo fans don't buy 3rd party multiplats (and sometimes 3rd party exclusives) because they think they are crap/shotty ports (whether or not they are crap is irrelevant)

 

It's a Catch 22 people

 

The only thing Nintendo can do is throw money at the situation

 

 

I'm out

[GAMER1984]

This is not a good way to support your opinion.

 

but is he wrong? I mean its no secret 3rd party games dont sell well. Now is this just a install base issue or what?

[Colinx]

This is not a good way to support your opinion.

How so? Am I wrong?

[ChrisD]

Wait what?

 

Pretty sure he just means "isn't the Top Dog." In which case, he's correct. N64-on has had other competition to deal with that are much more dangerous than Sega.

[Raiden]

Since sales matter Wii was top dog. No matter the stigma. Game Boy top dog. DS top dog. 3ds top dog.

Ps3 was my fave last gen system. I like my PSP and Vita more but hey Nintendo was on top even in consoles last gen.

MS was never top anything in home consoles. They have yet to win a sales race.

[Lain]

By eliminating the competition through sabotage

[Mewbot]

Very submissive of you to ignore practically the whole logic of my argument and take a single line then point out everything you thought could be considered an opinion and wrapped it up as you're argument.

I took your main arguments and rebutted them. The rest of your post was elaboration, and to avoid making my post overly long I took the main point which happened to be a single line for each of them. Also you're name-calling again with submissive.

 

 

"Ironically, you state that i'm the one making the opinions but saying "Had they made a Metroid game it probably would have been uninspired and boring." is rather hypocritical, especially since their game wasn't even a Metroid game so who are we to even know if that would have been the case."

 

That's not hypocritical, it's fact. Being forced into doing something you don't want to do will almost always cause that work to be of a lower standard. Plus, you were the one that started the opinion argument, claiming that yours were all facts and mine were opinions.

All I did was point out some opinions in your main arguments, then also point out some completely incorrect statements.

 

 

"Boo hoo!"

 

Now you're being condescending, not cool man.

 

 

"It was an example, as if I had said Super Mario 3D World was an awful game and everyone else has reviewed it and said it was crap, you would have told me to play it myself."

 

It took me three tries to work out what you meant there, and I wouldn't have told you to play it for yourself. I generally base my purchases off reviews, if it had bad reviews I wouldn't have bought it, and therefore wouldn't be telling you to play it yourself. That's the reason why I haven't bought the W101 (sorry 3Dude) and have no opinion on the game.

 

 

"It wasn't a literal statement, read between the lines."

 

That's the second time you've said that. Yeah let's make an argument expecting the opponent to read between the lines (dictionary says: Look for or discover something that is hidden). You shouldn't hide your arguments mate.

 

 

"I guess if you really want to call this an opinion, go ahead. But who disagrees that Wii Party U and Nintendo Land are more hardcore than Killzone or Destiny. "

 

If you really want to get into this one, we could start debating as to what the meaning of a hardcore game is.

 

 

"the masses opinions are more correct then yours will ever be. Not an opinion."

 

Huh? That's not really relevant? Perhaps you wanted me to read between the lines again? Are you saying that you weren't giving an opinion? You were definitely implying that, as a PS4 owner you knew that the games were good and I did not. I was saying how you opinion on that means less than the masses opinions, as their opinions are the culmination of thousands of opinions and yours was just one opinion. This is getting convoluted now..

 

 

 

""Rayman Legends was pretty irrelevent" - opinion "and not big sales-wise" - It still sold better on the Wii U than the other versions earlier on. This isn't an opinion. According to VG Chartz, the PS3 version is currently the top selling version with over 30,000 copies between the two. Also, the game sold pretty mediocre amongst all platforms."

 

It is an opinion. Sales =/= relevancy. As for the PS3 version selling better, there's a reason I said earlier on.

 

 

 

""If you think those games are better than Wind Waker then you're kidding yourself" - opinion You can say this is subjective, but you know that you do not believe any of those games are better than WW."

 

That's your opinion again. I do believe those games are better, if only by a small margin. This is partially influenced by me already owning the GameCube version, which instantly devalues the remake for me.

 

 

 

I think I've replied to all of your points now. Sigh, I dislike arguments.

[Colinx]

That's not hypocritical, it's fact. Being forced into doing something you don't want to do will almost always cause that work to be of a lower standard. Plus, you were the one that started the opinion argument, claiming that yours were all facts and mine were opinions.

All I did was point out some opinions in your main arguments, then also point out some completely incorrect statements.

"especially since their game wasn't even a Metroid game so who are we to even know if that would have been the case."

 

 

It took me three tries to work out what you meant there, and I wouldn't have told you to play it for yourself. I generally base my purchases off reviews, if it had bad reviews I wouldn't have bought it, and therefore wouldn't be telling you to play it yourself. That's the reason why I haven't bought the W101 (sorry 3Dude) and have no opinion on the game.

This pretty much just says it right there, you cannot say whether or not any of the games are bad/good just because of reviews. Most of the games you had listed like Killzone and Destiny, had received mediocre-great reviews which is around a 60% to an 85%, more so on the higher scale which doesn't equate to bad a game at all.

 

 

That's the second time you've said that. Yeah let's make an argument expecting the opponent to read between the lines (dictionary says: Look for or discover something that is hidden). You shouldn't hide your arguments mate.

You know what, after reading my initial post about ZombiU, it was quite clear what I was trying to say.

 

If you really want to get into this one, we could start debating as to what the meaning of a hardcore game is.

Wii Party U and Nintendo Land are types of party games that are also casual games. The definition of casual games does not equate to what Killzone or Destiny would be considered.(hardcore) Can you play Wii Party U or Nintendo Land everyday, yea.. does anyone do that? No. Did the developers intend for Wii Party U to be played hardcore. Absolutely not. 

 

 

Huh? That's not really relevant? Perhaps you wanted me to read between the lines again? Are you saying that you weren't giving an opinion? You were definitely implying that, as a PS4 owner you knew that the games were good and I did not. I was saying how you opinion on that means less than the masses opinions, as their opinions are the culmination of thousands of opinions and yours was just one opinion. This is getting convoluted now..

I don't own a PS4, I also don't go around saying that some games are good or bad based off of how they've been reviewed. None of those games you've listed were critically panned for being awful games, especially Killzone and Destiny.

 

It is an opinion. Sales =/= relevancy. As for the PS3 version selling better, there's a reason I said earlier on. Sales absolutely equals relevancy, take for example GTA 5, biggest game of the year? Sold millions upon millions.. Destiny?

Millions upon millions. Both of those games were incredibly hyped up by media/gaming outlets while Rayman Legends sought praise, but was overall overshadowed by bigger releases at the time and it was evident in its sales figures.

 

 

 

That's your opinion again. I do believe those games are better, if only by a small margin. This is partially influenced by me already owning the GameCube version, which instantly devalues the remake for me.

I'm not going to keep going on with this "opinion" crap.It's quite clear by the 2nd sentence that you obviously do not believe those games are better than WW. It's obvious that WW was the best Wii U game for a few months. As for the  game being a remake, is pretty irrelevant simply because the core game of Windwaker is still the same with only added improvements. 

 

[DéliopT]

I stopped here. I'm sorry but that is straight up not at all in anyway true. In fact I'm pretty sure Nintendo is the company that has made the most money off video games in the world to date and they certainly didn't make all that money by the end of the SNES era. That's one strange looking failure.

 

 

Wait what?

 

I wasn`t speaking about the financial side.
What happened (n the home console segment) after the SNES - and even with the SNES, as it lost marketshare to SEGA - is that in terms of marketshare and people`s perception, Nintendo keeps going downhill.
Yes, they struck gold with the Wii - and had they managed better the last 2 years like Sony did for PS3 and things would have been better for Wii U - but when it comes to the non-gamers or casual audience, Nintendo keeps going down the path of irrelevance. All the games they want are on MS and Sony camp. Why are they going to really bother buying a console that has about a handful of really great franchises?
As i said, nobody is going to rush to a store to buy a phone that only does a few exclusive, despite great, things, when they can a phone that offers them a lot more. Things that the mass market wants.

 

Wydra:
Making money in the N64 and GC (those consoles that tried to appeal to the core gamer) won`t save them in the long term.
With Wii U in danger of doing even less than the GC, what kind of future awaits Nintendo? Nintendo is only now making money on Wii U. Next gen, with development costs rising and a small userbase to sell them to, the profits are bound to go down.
If nothing changes at Nintendo, the home console business will stop being desirable to investors and they are going to start calling for it`s end.

 

Great post, some of the others failed to realize that you weren't taking about financial figures you were speaking about their relation to 3rd party developers, something only one who actually read the post would have comprehended.

 

Not just 3rd parties, but because of that and the lack of Nintendo's interest in offering games that gamers also want, they fail to build a market that really appeals to everyone. A market that is becoming smaller and smaller with each generation. Not to mention that the mobile market is eating into it`s, once, exclusive market: kids and families.

For some reason, MS entered the gaming business and went after Sony`s market and not Nintendo's market.

[Mewbot]

Yeah I'm done arguing. It's clear I'm not changing his mind anyway.

[Super Smash Bros]

The third party support on wiiu will not get any better because of the system hardware, both other 2 platforms won't have this problem, anything will sell on them systems, I do say Nintendo is very powerful system for Nintendo Games but for third party it's not.

 

I personally don't buy third party my games myself, Nintendo makes the best games in the world, yes just one developer can not succeed everyone has to take part, Nintendo won't have a chance coming back on next system, I tell you right now if this machine can't do anything it's all over, it won't help releasing another console already base is stronger on Sony & Microsoft, Aim of this game only one platform will stay alive and will lead the games on one system, Nintendo will be first one to lose this game and next will be Microsoft and finally Sony will win this competition.

 

When Sega dreamcast was out their were few business saying that the letter S will win, was it Sega or Sony and of course it was Sony and let Microsoft & Sony battle it out to the end and Sony will win without any doubt, already PS4 is the best selling console so you know, whose winning right now. 

[Azure-Edge]

but is he wrong? I mean its no secret 3rd party games dont sell well. Now is this just a install base issue or what?

Depends on what you compare it to. The max a game can sell depends on the size of the install base. Anyone who was expecting year old ports to be million sellers in the first year of the wii u was delusional. It also wasn't realistic to expect the Wiiu to make up high percentages of sales when compared to the 360 and ps3.

The way I look at it, third party titles are products. Third parties made the product. If the product didn't sale then who do you blame? The company who made the product.

[KeptMyWiiUAndLeftTheForums]

but is he wrong? I mean its no secret 3rd party games dont sell well. Now is this just a install base issue or what?

 

How so? Am I wrong?

"it's only the die hard Nintendo fans who will pick up third party games on Wii U either to support the third party or genuinely play the games."

 

You're claiming hardcore Nintendo fans buy things that are 3rd party and that Nintendo fans don't support anything that is not Nintendo all in the same breath.

On the notion that it's hardcore Nintendo fans that are even buying these games: I have serious doubts. I don't see hardcore Nintendo fans going out and buying crappy ports and CoD: Modern Advanced Warfare Ops 57 (especially when they are aware that same money could be used to buy much better games from Nintendo). These are (are generally) people who just want to play whatever and don't care about the politics behind buying games or looking into whether or not it's even a good game/port.

I wasn`t speaking about the financial side.
What happened (n the home console segment) after the SNES - and even with the SNES, as it lost marketshare to SEGA - is that in terms of marketshare and people`s perception, Nintendo keeps going downhill.
Yes, they struck gold with the Wii - and had they managed better the last 2 years like Sony did for PS3 and things would have been better for Wii U - but when it comes to the non-gamers or casual audience, Nintendo keeps going down the path of irrelevance. All the games they want are on MS and Sony camp. Why are they going to really bother buying a console that has about a handful of really great franchises?
As i said, nobody is going to rush to a store to buy a phone that only does a few exclusive, despite great, things, when they can a phone that offers them a lot more. Things that the mass market wants.

 

Wydra:
Making money in the N64 and GC (those consoles that tried to appeal to the core gamer) won`t save them in the long term.
With Wii U in danger of doing even less than the GC, what kind of future awaits Nintendo? Nintendo is only now making money on Wii U. Next gen, with development costs rising and a small userbase to sell them to, the profits are bound to go down.
If nothing changes at Nintendo, the home console business will stop being desirable to investors and they are going to start calling for it`s end.

 

 

Not just 3rd parties, but because of that and the lack of Nintendo's interest in offering games that gamers also want, they fail to build a market that really appeals to everyone. A market that is becoming smaller and smaller with each generation. Not to mention that the mobile market is eating into it`s, once, exclusive market: kids and families.

For some reason, MS entered the gaming business and went after Sony`s market and not Nintendo's market.

Nintendo has made huge profits after the GC and N64 era, as you just stated yourself. Also it's a very well known fact that Nintendo could $250 million for the next 40 years before they would be fully bankrupt. When you say long term you must mean very very long term, since 40 years could be as many as ten whole gaming generations. Also after the huge success of the Wii, the investors would be stupid to not try at least once more in the home console market, even if the Wii U is a failure.

 

And I definitely don't subscribe to this "Nintendo doesn't listen to it's gamers" crap. Nintendo has already produced a great liabrary for Wii u with even more great games o come. From metroid to frinking Mario, it's all there.Look around at Wii U owners, and they are satisfied as heck with their consoles. People can't even complain about lack of good games anymore because nintendo has provided a huge library of incredible games for Wii U. You know what Nintendo's problem is with gamers not being satisfied? They've set the bar too dang high. People complain about everything. "We want more original and old IP's Nintendo! Stop giving us this Mario crap!" Ok, so Nintendo goes and makes and buys new IPs. Do they sell? No, because the same people who were complaining don't want that game, they want Nintendo's old IPs, like Starfox and Metroid. Ohmygoodness, why doesn't Nintendo listen to it's gamers? Oh what's that, a new Starfox, Metroid, and Zelda in the works? "I wish Nintendo would go back to their old, more creative selves and make new IPs".

Seriously, there is no winning with Nintendo fans. Every time Nintendo brings back an old IP, people start begging for an even more obscure one that made even crappier sales. Every tiny thing Nintendo does wrong is proof of how they're "falling short" and "irrelevant" and you barely even hear about the great things they're doing.

The Wii U is a great console. Even if the sales aren't great, it's incredible. I know that because I own one, and I love it, and I've seen so. Many. Others say the same about theirs. The people I see complaining and criticizing most are people who don't even own one, and the people who for whatever reason refuse to go out and buy the huge library of great games the WIi U has.

Heck Nintendo is even listening and paying attention to the competitive smash community this gen, and last gen they practically spat in their face.

 

Anyway a lot of this crap people give Nintendo, stems from the same reason people crap people give Nintendo about third parties. As you said, it's about reputation. Sony, Microsoft and the "triple a" western devs have done an incredible job slandering Nintendo's name in the west. In fact that's why I asked this question in the first place, I wanted to see if there was anyone who could provide an actual solid argument for why this is Nintendo's fault, and why so much of the blame from them. All I had ever seen was people being mad at Nintendo simply for being Nintendo. Saying eff them for what is clearly the fault of others. That's all I've really seen in this thread as well. Straw grasping. People desperate to blame Nintendo because they're Nintendo so it must be them doing something wrong. It's impossible the other companies who have shown to be scumbags again and agian could possibly be responsible for being scumbags this time because Nintendo -who have been around since he beginning and created the majority of the most influential IPs of all time- is involved and we all know how irrelevant they are and how they hate and don't listen to their fans. How they hate change, and are stuck in the middle ages because, oh no, we don't have voice chat in mario kart. Does it matter that every time they try to change their "fans" whine and complaining that the game isn't exactly like how they remember gaming on their N64? Of course not. It couldn't be that their "fans" are never satisfied and have taken this stupid propaganda to heart and want to blame Nintendo for every little thing and jump on every tiny mistake they make while letting the other big game companies rape their wallets and abuse their "fans" without so much as batting an eye. 

But honestly, at this point there's really not much Nintendo can do, except hope people gain some common sense. Changing your image as a company is already a notoriously hard thing. It verges on impossible. Doing so when the things that are said about you are already total crap lies? I don't think such a thing is possible at all.

[Mewbot]

Super long post omg so long wow

dis is y i stopped arguing its just painful sitting and writing for so long.

Edited by R00bot, 02 October 2014 - 01:24 AM.