not even bloom!

There was some HDR present when the light was shining through a hallway.

Not only is their less debris falling from the ceiling, aside from larger chunks like whole bricks, most of its culled almost immediately after it hits the ground. You can see it just.... dissapearing... mid bounce flying and then... dissapears. And the debris is animated at a noticably lower framerate than the rest of the scene, Theres that gddr5 latency rearing its ugly head.

and the lighting isnt even real time anymore, the sovgi has been replaced with the prebaked light mass technology from ur3.

And the poly count seems drastically lower. Tesselation scaled down? removed?

Its really not looking good.

Exactly,

I noticed lower poly counts, lower resolution textures, particle effects from snow and fire have been removed, no realtime GI, (maybe some color bleeding), environmental culling.  This isn't very good, and more RAM doesn't make up for any of it.  That GDDR5 latency is going to be a problem with physics engines and procedural effects when the CPU is constantly fetching and causing lots of RAM refresh waits.  Where is the SSAO that was so important in UE4?

Trailer

nevermind, already posted

And I already told you that Capcom made statements at GDC claiming that the Deep Down renders are running on PS4 hardware, as well as a tweet from one of the developers showing a still from the game running on PS4. This is a hardware that's going to be launching in 6-7 months, it's not exactly making any big leaps to assume that the some of these renders are indicative of what the actual games are going to look like.


Again, I see no mention of this anywhere in the news stories surrounding the Wii U's reveal.


Statements like this are exactly why I said your arguments are all one-sided. Capcom making informal statements at a developer conference has no bearing on the truth, yet you're more than happy to cite NeoGaf as a source??! Hell, why don't we just start compiling our facts from the VGChartz and Gamespot forums while we're at it...

No, actually, you haven't, and they've made no such comment at GDC.  Stills don't make the non existent game any more tangible than the target render did.  Why are you even arguing about this?  I've already said, many, many times, that if the PS4 delivers gameplay that looks anything like Deep Down, I will be very impressed.  You know what I think about it, I know what you think, move on.  Also, Killzone renders that were touted as "in game" footage were never as pretty as the target renders either, because everything changes once you have game code running on the system.

I already told you where you can find the info if you're actually interested, a cursory google search might not work for you, especially since most of the media in this industry don't care to write anything legitimate about Nintendo or the Wii U because it doesn't get the clicks that doom articles get.  (that's a little tongue in cheek, it isn't an anti Nintendo conspiracy out there, but they do catch a lot of bias in the media).

There is no indication that the comment you just now cited ever existed.  I cited a particular GAF member who is well known for having reliable sources in the industry.

I have news for you son, your arguments are also one sided, such is the nature of debate.  I completely understand your position, but it wasn't you I was initially engaged with in this thread.

VGChartz is an interesting subject, many Nintendo haters use VGChartz to cite their weaker than actual Wii U system and software sales numbers, but when they start reporting in the pro version a 300% rise in sales in certain regions for the Wii U and Lego City and Monster Hunter breaking the top 10 weekly charts, they can't be trusted.

NeoGAF has their trouble makers just like any other forum, but they also have a boatload of reliable members known for their accurate information.  Take it for what it is, heresay.  Honestly that's all that is, but I trust it, I can understand if you choose not to.  I think What Nintendo have in store will give you a different opinion as the generation progresses and it stops being the cool thing to do to troll and trash talk Nintendo and its fans.

Here are the specs of the first devkits that were released on GAF by a developer with early access to the SDK feature list. http://www.nintengen...k-gpu-info.html

That was the original target hardware, which was updated, changed, and changed again until mid 2012 when the hardware was finalized.

Basically the early devkits were using more standard OTS components for target hardware while their chip designs were finalized for the build.  Also, GAF revealed the microscopic photographs of the Wii U CPU and GPU dies for everyone to see.  The sources on GAF are real and trustworthy, you just have to filter through the juvenile hate speak to see it.

They sould sell Nintendo Power.

 

Problem solved.

They should bring back Nintendo Power since Nintendo is pretty much going to be all they'll be able to sell in a couple of generations.

Seriously time for Iwata-San to start making calls over there and talk shop.

Let's see gameplay first

Just imagine what it looks like on PC, but maybe slightly better.  They are probably using whatever the sharpest textures were in the PC version and I would assume that tweaking their engine meant just efficiency tweaks or better AA or AF or something.

gameplay is known to be amazing... why dont u read the pc review I linked...

He means video, because obviously evil developers lie to us.  He referenced BLOPS, which in my opinion is the best version of that game as well.

For the last time, I'm not saying that Wii U will use the DirectX 10 API. 

 

What I'm saying is that I'm worried because Unity only supports DX10 level equivalent features.

 

What this means is that all/most DX11 equivalent features are not available on the Unity 4 Pro based Wii U version and might not be possible at all with the Wii U GPU, making it harder to port/develop more graphical intensive games.

 

(4.x updates bring GUI and shader/performance improvements, and mostly have nothing to do with DX10/11 support)

No, it says that Unity for the Wii U currently supports DX10 equivalent features.  You are still reading wayyy too far into this.

We'll have to wait for video, but it should be releasing soon, like in the next couple of months was the rumor IIRC.  This is definitely something I am looking forward to, and what's with all of these devs hyping the Wii U?  Have they been missing out on the last four months of memos and gaming press?

You keep telling us that the trailers aren't to be believed, and aren't running on PS4 hardware, but nowhere do you back up your claims. You say that we know all these things about the PS4 hardware already based on just a simple spec sheet, and made judgements on the games' visual qualities before ever having seen a game running on it or even an E3 trailer. Hell, you're even benchmarking the PS4 CPU against the Wii U's. So yeah, I don't think I'm being unreasonable questioning your observations.

I'll accept any information you have on the PS4, provided you can substantiate it. Until then, I can only look at what Sony, Capcom and others have shown and speculate based on that.

For the record, I don't think I ever said that the Wii U's specs were terrible.


Well, you just claimed that the Wii U has dedicated hardware support for global illumination. Source?


I don't remember Nintendo or ATI ever saying that...so again, source?

CAPCOM stated themselves that the Phanta Rhei demo (Deep Down) was rendered in engine, not running live on PS4 hardware in engine, just running in engine.  Have some common sense here and don't argue a point for the sake of arguing, its silly.  We all know plenty of companies use target renders to hype their upcoming products, Sony does it more than others.

I don't think you said that, I'm pretty sure I was replying to thechamp, who did.  it gets hard to keep it straight sometimes when the conversation moves so quickly.

Check the e3 footage from 2011, at the booth where they were showing off the Zelda tech demo, they pointed out global illumination and color bleed being a central focus when designing the platform.  Also, a GAF member by the name of bgassassin has some great industry sources that were bound by NDA, so all they could reveal about what they knew is that there was "dedicated silicon" for things like GI, shadows, tessellation, and more that removed some of the burden on the main RAM pool.

Nintendo is big on using fixed functions in the past, this would be a natural extension of that.

You should search around here, we've had these discussions before.

Yes, the whole idea of the post is silly.  OP obviously has surveyed what the 3DS has to offer and isn't interested, so why should we be called to "convince" him?  It makes it sound like we're trying to evangelize people to join our Nintendo cult, and he's showed up to give us the "opportunity" to win him over, but I'm perfectly fine with him being satisfied with the PS Vita or whatever else he has.  

 

And I am tired of the nebulous labels of "hardcore" and "mature" offerings, which seem to me to boil down to "blood and boobs."  If you want to watch porn, go buy some porn, and if you want high budget shooters, well, you already have that on your other console(s).  

Here here brother.

Level 5 is awesome.

Heh im not really a collector. I've never seen anything on their that was remotely close to "I have to get it".

fair enough.  But it is free if you buy Nintendo products.  If nothing else, you can sell it.

routerbad, on 02 Apr 2013 - 09:34, said:Yeah that notion is pretty much dead and gone.  
That should be DDR3 IO from the memory controller if I'm not mistaken, unless the memory controller is on the GPU with CPU interconnects.


It could be. i have no idea though, as all i can see is the lanes head into that corner, the mcm heat spreader hides everything from view, and the next step we have is the gpu itself. We still havent seen that middle ground.

It does look to be headed straight into the GPU from the angle on the mobo.  

Yep, straight into the GPU, unless the memory controller and entire northbridge is sitting on the MCM just outside the GPU.

if good games come i will buy them if not i won't i'm not prepared to just buy games for the sake of saving nintendo screw that.

Yep, pretty much.  It wouldn't serve to anyway.

Oh man its gonna be fun when you guys try to defend Nintendo when they don't have any 3rd party games. But I'll let you wander around in self denial now.

We already have 3rd party games announced for the future, and the only publisher that is actively snubbing Wii U is EA, and we know the reason for that.

We won't need to defend Nintendo for having weak third party support, it isn't up to them to code other developers' games for their console.  If the developers want to make a Wii U game, they can, Nintendo is making it easy for everyone from the biggest publishers and developers, down to the smallest indie developers.

Third party support in and of itself is not indemnification of the consoles abilities.  A more appropriate post would have been to say "its gonna be fun when the multiplats look better on other platforms" but since there is little in the way of tangible evidence to prove that point, I can see why you refrained.

I have a gaming PC, so I'm not overly concerned with 3rd party support, though I would like it, and would support 3rd parties that decide to develop for Wii U.  But alas, your entire argument is a string of strawmen, and rarely have I seen a cogent post from you, though there have been some.

You seem to be forgetting that it isn't all about defending Nintendo or the Wii U, per se, but taking a realistic and holistic approach to assessing the hardware and what each system is and will be capable of.  I'll say it again, the PS4 will be more powerful than the Wii U, but I maintain that those advantages in hardware will amount to very little in a game environment.

Yes.

routerbad, on 02 Apr 2013 - 09:09, said:I'm getting 61.6 GB/s, I think that would be overall for all four chips, I'm still assuming that they are all talking with one northbridge and memory controller, the bus clock multi is doubled.

Ill be happy just with killing 12.8

Oh,

from the gpu die.



ddr3 io is the backwards L the chipworks word is on.

The whole shabangabang goes into the gpu along that corner

Yeah that notion is pretty much dead and gone.  

That should be DDR3 IO from the memory controller if I'm not mistaken, unless the memory controller is on the GPU with CPU interconnects.

This post is why today's video game culture sucks.  

Why, because people need to be led like sheep rather than make their own decisions on what to purchase?  They need to be told what they like and what will be fun rather than figuring it out themselves?  

 the beauty of using a low clocked cpu they produce sod all heat almost like nintendo has you know hardware engineers that know what their doing or something lol.

Whoda thunk it.

And...Nice bikes!

routerbad, on 02 Apr 2013 - 08:21, said:No, I think not.  Something is seriously wrong with the Anand teardown, whether it was bias, not enough coffee that morning, or just someone who didn't understand what they were looking at.  It isn't that far of a stretch though, 10 years of tracing leads on motherboards and there is still a lot of mystery in their design for me.
When I first started building electronics every setting was a manual jumper setting, so you had to become familiar with where jumper leads were going and what they did.


That 3 lanes wider per chip has got to be considered now too.

its typically 2 bits per line, ps3 had 8 per chip, for 4 16 bit busses that added up to 1 64 bit bus.

with 11 lanes x 2, thats 22 bit busses, x4 = an 88 bit bus.

That would put total peak bandwidth at 35.2 GB a second going into that north bridge.

I'm getting 61.6 GB/s, I think that would be overall for all four chips, I'm still assuming that they are all talking with one northbridge and memory controller, the bus clock multi is doubled.

How about paying 349.99 for s console slightly under powered then the other consoles? Kinda like what is happening ...

^This, Quoted for truth.

But who's to say that these trailers are inaccurate or this isn't running on PS4 hardware?


They who?

Again, I'm having a hard time determining what's fact and fiction here. As near as I can tell, the global illumination seen in the Wind Waker demo is a diffuse colorbleeding pixel shader, and not at all the technique used in the UE4 demos. If you're making the assumption that the Wii U has secret hardware features that the PS4 doesn't, I'd have a really hard time believing that....unless someone from ATI or Nintendo has confirmed this feature.


Again, aside from global illumination not being in the console versions of UE4, what else has Epic confirmed to not be there?

I'm sorry, but I find your argument to be extremely one-sided. I'm perfectly willing to accept that the PS4 trailers might be fictional, but I also see no evidence to support any of your claims about the Wii U hardware being as full-featured as you claim.

Honestly, I don't think anyone knows exactly what method is being used for global illumination, but I'll take Point based diffuse GI.  

As 3Dude already stated, Sparse Voxel Octree GI doesn't just affect GI, but all of the new pixel affects in UE4, it drives pretty much everything.

I didn't claim anything about the Wii U hardware, in fact what I keep having to repeat to you is that we know more about the PS4 hardware than we do about the Wii U even today, it's your argument that is one sided, and you keep trying to use a strawman because you can't argue with what I've been saying, which was

"Your argument is swiss cheese, you say in one post you prefer to analyze what's in front of you, but we know far more about what is inside the PS4 from Sony's own lips than what the most talented people analyzing microscopic photographs of the Wii U MCM know about the Wii U.  But you'll call the Wii U specs terrible and refuse to accept any information on the PS4 specs, because they aren't in front of you?"  Where in there did I make any claim whatsoever about the Wii U?

Also, about GI being in the Wii U, that isn't speculation, the whole reason the Zelda demo existed was to show it off, and NintendoLand and WW HD show it as well.  The Wii U also has a hardware tessellator, and that effect is shown off in NintendoLand as well.  Up to 50% of the GPU logic is more than likely either flexible fixed function shaders, or some other form of dedicated silicon, there is so much about it that isn't known, either way, it's intent is to pull common tasks from the unified shaders to ensure a minimum level of quality, per Nintendo's own design ethos.

I haven't argued once that the PS4 won't be the most powerful console this gen, only that it isn't as powerful as it is being hyped to be.  We know what's in it, they've already told us.  It won't be the powerhouse people think it will, it will be incrementally better than last gen with a few new tricks and a boatload of new PSN services.

8GB GDDR5. All day . What does the Wii U have -2GB? lololololol. Oh man its over

Now you're just blatantly trolling.  XD