I do believe that the patent for the Wii U tablet controller confirms that the tablet controllers will use a rechargeable battery. They could likely use the same battery as the 3DS cutting cost while still having a relatively log battery live since the tablets are mostly dump terminals.

Nintendo won’t be sharing the technical specifications of the Wii U anytime soon. We’ll have to wait for a full teardown when the console releases for the juicy details. But as a very rough guide, an industry analyst shared that “Some of the developers we spoke to indicated to us that the console will have 50% more processing power compared to the PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360.”

That sounds pretty decent to me. Developers are still managing to wring more power out of the current systems, so 50% more power is plenty of room for developers to play with.


http://wiiublog.com/the-wii-u-is-50-more-powerful-than-the-xbox-360-and-ps3/

This isn't anything to really pay attention to. How exactly did they come up with that 50% figure. Most individuals don't understand squat about tech or how to judge how capable one chipset is compared to another. For all we know a few developers told them the Wii U has a 50% faster clock speeds. This was more or less expected in any of the predictions of Wii U's hardware and is in no way an indication of the chipsets raw power, but to the uninformed they may think Wii U is only 50% more powerful because of 50% faster clock speeds.

Would only 50% more powerful be bad. I think that is good. I don't see the next consoles from Sony or Microsoft to be no more than 75% more powerful. Being that is what the developer is saying only 50% could mean more as developers haven't even tap out the current gens power.

It would be bad for long term third party support. Nintendo would potentially maintain support for the next one to two years it takes PS4 and Xbox Next to release and then they'd potentially lose support depending on Wii U's popularity. Still regardless the success of Wii may lead to Wii U maintaining better support even after Sony and Microsoft's next consoles hit, but Wii U would quickly end up in the same situation as far as support goes depending on what happens even potentially having a shorter lifespan than Wii depending on its popularity. I expect the next Xbox and Playstation to be five times as capable as their current incarnations at least. This would mean lower prices, smaller consoles, and profit earlier than this previous generation if not right away. That's close to the jump earlier rumors placed Wii U. Don't buy into nonsense both Xbox 360 and PS3 have been tapped out as far as raw capability. This is partly a limitation based on RAM, but still even with more RAM you couldn't get much more out of current HD consoles outside the possibility of PS3.

I don't know how they came up with the 50% more powerful figure is basically I don't think its wise to focus on this. For all I know this comes from a report that Nintendo's chipset runs 50% faster like I said or the CPU benchmarks at 350 gflops. At 350 gflops it would only have 50% more processing power than PlayStation 3's cell processor, but around 4x the processing power of Xbox 360's Xenon processor. If the processor is simply a tri or quad core CPU and not some strange architecture like the cell that would also mean roughly four times the general processing capability of current consoles. Then like I said most don't understand tech instead of single precision gflops developers may of given double precision gflops info. A figure of 120 gflops or 144 gflops doesn't look impressive unless you can distinguish whether its single precision gflops or double precision gflops. A figure of 120 gflops or 144 gflops would place Wii U around 50% more powerful than Xbox 360 depending on if you go with the real world benchmark figures or if you use the theoretical figure, but if instead of single precision gflops the figure is double precision gflops those same figures are 2 to 2.5 times as powerful as Xbox 360. An that's merely in double point precision operations we still would have to figure out the single precision gflops of the chip, which could vary greatly based on architecture. As an example Playstation 3's cell at best in real world figures has 15 gflops to a theoretical 17.2 gflops regarding double precision operations compared to the theoretical 230.4 single point precession gflops figure given to same chip.

Wow the PS2 only had a 299Mhz processor? That sure is a big jump. However, I don't think you could expect the Wii U processor being 1,000% more powerful with a 30GHz processor, that technology doesn't even exist

There may never be a 30GHz processor. Current trends are leading to numerous small less expensive cores and architecture redesigns that increase performance without increasing clock speed considerably.

i hope they go back to cartridge i mean i always thought it was superior to disc i mean cartridges are pretty cheap now and the console could be pretty small without a disc drive

Cartridges have several advantages to disks like the capability for near lack of loading times, co-processors, and extra ram, but I don't think it would be wise to switch back to cartridges. They simply aren't cheap enough yet to have capacities large enough to compete with other options available. One option that may be possible next generation is holographic storage. It removes a considerable amount of the cartridge's advantage regarding loading times with Tapestry Media having transfer rates of 20 MB/s in read write mode and up to 300GB of storage estimated last I can find at 6 to 20 cents per GB. Holographic storage is also compared to other disk formats extremely scratch resistant and a drive should still be able to play Wii and Gamecube games. As a retro bonus Tapestry Media has a cartridge/floppy disk like design. Nintendo had a stake in this technology with a joint patent with Inphase Technology, though all progress has potentially stopped because of recent troubles at Inphase, which now is under new ownership.

Yeah, I've been wondering when Nintendo will start using holographic storage. I'm not sure if they can get it out cheap enough yet.
It would be awesome if they brought it out next gen.

Tapestry Media as far as the disks are concerned likely are ready even with the latest issues at Inphase Technologies. Imagine a floppy disk about the size of a Gamecube disk with more than three times the storage of a single layer Blu-Ray disk, super fast loading times, and possibly not costing much more than a comparable Blu-Ray disk. A 150GB disk for instance could cost from $9 US to $30 US based on previous estimates. Sounds high, but it could potentially beat Blu-Ray XL at similar capacities as far as price goes. The issue are the drives the Tapestry Media drives last I knew where large and very expensive, but the joint patent between Nintendo and Inphase Technologies points to a miniaturization in the technology. The final issue though is I'm not sure if any real progress has been made because of the financial issues at Inphase.

i hope they go back to cartridge i mean i always thought it was superior to disc i mean cartridges are pretty cheap now and the console could be pretty small without a disc drive

Cartridges have several advantages to disks like the capability for near lack of loading times, co-processors, and extra ram, but I don't think it would be wise to switch back to cartridges. They simply aren't cheap enough yet to have capacities large enough to compete with other options available. One option that may be possible next generation is holographic storage. It removes a considerable amount of the cartridge's advantage regarding loading times with Tapestry Media having transfer rates of 20 MB/s in read write mode and up to 300GB of storage estimated last I can find at 6 to 20 cents per GB. Holographic storage is also compared to other disk formats extremely scratch resistant and a drive should still be able to play Wii and Gamecube games. As a retro bonus Tapestry Media has a cartridge/floppy disk like design. Nintendo had a stake in this technology with a joint patent with Inphase Technology, though all progress has potentially stopped because of recent troubles at Inphase, which now is under new ownership.

It was only the third-party games, though; the ones like the bird at the hanami (cherry blossom place), the Zelda one, and any first-party games are the ones ran on the Wii U.

There actually weren't any first party games for the Wii U this E3. Battle Mii, Chase Mii, Super Mario Mii, ext were merely prove of concept demos for the functions of the controller not actual games or prototypes of games in production.

I'd rather see someone at Nintendo finally bring the gameplay of Donkey Kong Country into the third dimension. I enjoyed Donkey Kong 64, but I wouldn't call it the ideal transition from a side scrolling platformer to a third person platformer. I'm relatively positive this would be good challenge for Retro and if done right it could easily give Nintendo a third heavy hitter. The tp's idea itself wouldn't be bad as a downloadable game for the Wii U or a full game for the 3DS.

All of the wii controllers and the gamecube controller will be able to be used. As for games, they might put gamecube games on virtual consoles or the store.they will have for sure, wii games.

GameCube controllers are out a long with GameCube backwards compatibility. The Wii U is merely backwards compatible with Wii. This mostly is because the ports for GameCube controllers and memory cards has been removed.

Nintendo's making a profit of $150 off every 3DS sold (and who knows how much off the Wii, which is based on 2001 technology), so I think they might be able to subsidize their next console's costs a little.

Considering how much we can expect the cost of hardware to fall over the next year, I don't think Nintendo would actually have that much trouble making the console powerful enough to support two, if not four tablets, as well as the TV, without driving the cost up exorbitantly high.

This isn't actually true. Nintendo isn't actually making exactly 150 dollars off each 3DS sold. The pure manufacturing costs of the handheld is about 100 or 101 dollars, but other costs come into play. There's the retailers cut, shipping costs, ext that start cutting into that figure. Certainly they are making profit off each 3DS sold and quite a hefty sum at that, but not as much as many believe.

I'm of the opinion the primary reason behind Nintendo only looking into using two utablet controllers so far comes down to a bandwidth issue and not necessarily a CPU or GPU related issue. The technologies that would allow for video streaming to multiple wireless monitors is quite expensive. Not so expensive I don't think Nintendo could allow for four utablet controllers by upgrading its Bluetooth or other wireless technology before launch, but expensive enough that they may consider whether two utablet controllers are enough merely to marginalize costs. Then you have to realize that Nintendo only recently got early developer kits out to the majority of developers within the last month. If the 3DS is anything to go by major changes will occur to the Wii U in response to 3D party developer reactions regarding these early dev kits all of which represents added cost to Nintendo. With 3D party development heavily focused primarily on online multiplayer and the rare co-op whether the number of supported utablets increases depends on if Nintendo is interested in the concept to be honest.

It appears Nintendo is trying to insure that two tablet controllers can be used at one time, but no word on whether they'll use more than two. There are a lot of limitations for this sort of technology, so who knows what makes using more than two tablet controllers impossible right now. For one it could be a bandwidth issue through Bluetooth or ext. Then there is the possibility its a hardware limitation. The GPU can't handle more than three monitors while maintaining the graphical quality Nintendo wants and the full functionality Nintendo intends for the tablet controllers. So to have more tablet controllers playing at once may mean you either lower the graphics of the game or hardly utilize the intended functions of the touchscreen.

This is very exciting news but why do i feel so skeptical about the wii u?? Maybe crytek could be making the next metroid game?? That would be insane!!!!

I highly doubt Nintendo would hand one of its franchises over to a western developer that they themselves don't own. The second coming is more likely to happen tomorrow than Crytek ever producing a metroid game.

Although I know that (unless something HUGE happened in the industry) Nintendo will never fork over the Metroid license to Crytek...

The prospect makes me tingly inside.

The best thing that could happen for the Metroid franchise is simply for Nintendo to beef-up Retro and hand the franchise back to them. It was the most popular it has ever been in the 3D gens in their hands and its doubtful that anyone else would be able to engage the current fanbase to a higher degree. First I'd rather Retro handle another IP perhaps a full blown Donkey Kong not merely a retro side scroller, but no doubt no one would better revive the Metroid franchise than Retro. Crytek themselves are a poor choice for Metroid anyway. Metroid is so much more than merely a third or first person shooter. Crytek's specialties don't really apply to the creation of a game like Metroid.

From what I gather from Neogaf this rumor from 01net is either completely bogus, an over reaction from some of the earlier dev kits which are known to have several issues, or simply someone not understanding that generally hardware development at this stage is usually clustered and haphazard to begin with. An individual from Neogaf with connection with this issue stated that the latest dev kit fixed the streaming issues with the controllers, so apparently that no longer is an issue.

Improving the fidelity of the Wii Remote will have to wait until Nintendo releases a new remote for the Wii U. The only way really to my knowledge to increase the fidelity of the Wii Remote after Motion + is to replace the camera within the Wii Remote with a higher quality camera. The technology behind the Wii Remote is quite different than that behind PS Move.

is there any quote from developer or nintendo or even rumors that state this is being built in Wii U? im dying for info on this console.

Unfortunately no there isn't any quote from a developer or Nintendo pointing to IBM quad channel controllers or a system on chip or system in package designs for the Wii U. That is merely speculation from Neogaf the memory controllers coming from IBM's statement that the CPU within the Wii U is related to Watson and the speculation regarding SoC or SoP originates mostly from random statements from IBM with no real relation to Wii U and the size of the console in comparison to the rumors. There was a rumor on Neogaf from supposedly an investor or employee of the company manufacturing the embedded memory for the GPU that the Wii U will use the 28nm manufacturing process, which could point to more impressive GPU than previously thought. It doesn't look like anything concrete will drop regarding the Wii U until next year. Hope still exists that leaks will follow the release of the third gen dev kits, but that could of already happened and we haven't heard anything.

We already know that the 3DS changed to some degree to better match the wishes of third party devs and a lot of the focus on the Wii U's design is maintaining third party support. After the lack luster start to the 3DS it wouldn't surprise me if devs aren't able to push more with Nintendo regarding the Wii U in comparison. That said Nintendo has some very capable hardware designers. Going on leaks and rumors I do believe it won't suffer from many of the issues that plagued the Wii regarding the core audience and third party developers, at least for the first three years. Then if you add in some of the speculation from IBM's quad channel memory controllers to possibly a system on chip or system in package silicon designs Wii U may end up more impressive than the high end rumors while still using parts equal to rumored PC counterparts. A lot depends on what Microsoft and Sony do next gen, but a lot points to both potentially utilizing a more modest jump in comparison to last gen.

I believe that nintendo has to have one hell of a launch lineup for Wii U to be successful. they have to show the power of the Wii U from day one launch games... they have to make people see with their own two eyes that a new generation has started. they need one hell of an exclusive im talking battlefield 4, cod, or gta. something that is exclusive to Wii U that ps360 cant get.

A better than 3DS launch is already practically guaranteed if for nothing more than third party ports. I don't think Nintendo need many must have launch titles either first party or exclusive third party to have a successful launch. Pikmin 3, perhaps a NSMBs, and one or two other titles would be more than enough along with the ports. What's more important than the launch titles themselves is a steady stream of titles afterwords. The lack of a steady stream of titles after launch is why the 3DS couldn't maintain any momentum at its original price not the lack luster launch software. Most launches are lack luster in selection and quantity.

I have an odd feeling that this upcoming generation may be the last, or second last, generation of (console) video games... At least for a long time.

Especially if the project butterfly rumors had some truth to them. If that's the case then all we'll have is 'sub-generations' for a very long time.

The difference in capability next generation compared to the current HD consoles likely isn't going to be as large a jump as we're used to with previous next gen console jumps. Simply put software needs to catch up with hardware otherwise costs in the industry will continue to balloon out of control. Depending on bandwidth limits and internet speeds the generation after this coming generation may be the end of console gaming as we know it. Nintendo 7 for instance may maintain majority of its power from servers something like Onlive. In one way it actually allows for expanded console generations something the overly expensive devices introduced by Microsoft and Sony this generation aren't really capable of doing, but this means you'd be paying a monthly or annual payment for the duration of the console generation. It may even be smart to allow the capability to utilize such a feature in next gen consoles and when or if bandwidth and internet speeds meet the level necessary offer the service. It wouldn't be completely impossible to over it free if costs where gained in some other fashion.

I think it will only be a tiny bit more powerful, but hey, the PS3 is super powerful.

Compared to the technology available the PS3 is extremely weak. Going by rumor and speculation if Nintendo uses a R700 family GPU from 2008 there exists the possibility of a console ranging from about twice as powerful as current consoles to almost exactly 10x times more powerful than current consoles. It would be rather cheap for Nintendo to out do PS3 in a noticeable way its merely a matter of how far Nintendo is willing to push the envelope since they themselves have little interest in continuing the hardware war.

More IGN rumours:


IGN

These rumours are driving me crazy. Now they say it's coming out later this year...
I know GBA and GC released the same year, but will Nintendo really do this?

Seems 01Nets speculation had something behind it. Going by these specs depending on what IBM processor the custom core is based on and what R700 series GPU its graphics processor is based on we're looking at a very sizable increase in power. There are four realistic choices Radeon HD 4850, Radeon HD 4860, Radeon HD 4870, and Radeon HD 4890. Radeon HD 4860 is a little too inefficient at merely 3.5-3.8 times as powerful as Xbox 360's GPU with higher TDP than Radeon HD 4850, which itself is slightly more than 4 times as powerful as Xenos. I honestly hope they use a GPU derived from Radeon HD 4870 or HD 4890 which would result in about 5 times as powerful with 4870 and almost 6 times as powerful with 4890. A TDP below 150 watts doesn't seem a priority going by the rumored size, so who knows it could utilize a rather hot CPU or even a dual GPU depending on costs.

Great posts Jikayaki!

I've been reading the GAF rumour thread all week and it started out as a good thread for info but has gone to the pits of hell with people thinking Ninty will ditch motion controls and go back to 'normal' controls for the 'hardcore' gamers.

I'm pretty sure the 'going hardcore' rumours just mean Nintendo is trying to get better third party support along with their first party offerings, not that they are going to become more like Sony and MS.

I don't think motion controls will be dropped at all. I'm just waiting to see what that dual analog rumour meant.

Nintendo going "hardcore" doesn't surprise me for the most part I expected a strategy from Nintendo much like the 3DS in their next console. Nintendo wants to be the PS2 of next generation and cash in on both hardcore and casual gamers. Motion controls I don't think have been dropped some rumors from Edge point to it carrying over to this new console. I believe Nintendo is going to make two primary controllers for the console this Gameboy thing and an improved Wii remote. For the rumored touchscreen Gameboy-like controller to work its going to have to either upgrade to Bluetooth 3.0 or utilize a cheaper alternative. Pair a modified Wii remote + with Bluetooth 3.0 and a better camera and realistically it should be a sizable upgrade over the Wii's motion control. I doubt an upgraded Wii remote + would cost much to manufacture more than likely something like $18 including a nunchuk depending on the camera they use to replace the one in the Wii remote.

i agree with this, games are only going to take longer to make with the hardware they will be dropping. Unless they want their gamers to suffer droughts all through the generation, they will have to make sure they are getting third party ports to fill in the blank spaces.

I'm expecting them to do a little expanding of their studios, maybe buy up some new ones, but I still think they will need better third party support.

To my knowledge several studios including Retro are expanding. Nintendo is creating a new R&D studio as well and at Nintendo often these studios are used for making games not merely software and hardware R&D.

Found it. Here's that patent.


Wait...AMD is shipping a ton of Trinity processors next year? That's news to me. When did that get get leaked out?

A leak from AMD apparently some time last year are so stated that Trinity APU would be in a next generation console launching in 2012. There is a thread on Neogaf where the idea of a Trinity APU powered Wii 2 originated from to my knowledge. I've seen several forums predicting that Trinity APU which should be in production in 2012 could power the next Nintendo console since the leak mentioned AMD designing the CPU for a next generation console to launch in 2012 and a few put two and two together. I haven't yet confirmed the existence of this leak, but I first heard of it at Neogaf, which I take as a rather reliable source. I still think Nintendo would go with PowerPC or at least Power derived CPU, but something interesting brought up on Neogaf's is it isn't impossible to include PowerPC cores in the APU. The sealing point of Nintendo possibly utilizing a Trinity APU derived processor to me is it would cast less than twice what their CPU and GPU did last generation only at about $80 at mass product levels. Depending on the price point of the console Nintendo could easily up Trinity's GPU a little an throw in two small PowerPC cores and make profit from the beginning with a sizable upgrade in power over current consoles.

Nintendo has always been about creating awesome content first, then making a console worthy of it, so to speak. Really, as you explained over your entire post, and as I said in my last one, there won't be any spectacular differences between the competing consoles because we're rapidly approaching the physical limitations of our current hardware (e.g.: I don't think 4k TV's really exist yet; even 3D ones are still brand new). I see the next generation of consoles as one in which hardware power will play a much smaller role than it did before, and the focus will be on creating incredible, memorable gaming experiences instead - and Nintendo is better known for that than any other company out there.

I'd agree Nintendo is very successful in creating memorable franchises that hold a lot of weight for the fanbases they attract. I don't think Nintendo can compete next generation without third party developers, but Nintendo seems to be handling that rather well. Resolutions beyond 1080p do exist, but primarily on Monitors not HDTVs. A higher resolution on HDTVs is unlikely to appear for quite sometime.

Thanks for that list, Play4Fun. I featured it over on the blog.


I agree with most of your points there, Jikayaki. Honestly, I don't think anyone's yet made a game that uses up every ounce of even the PlayStation 3's power yet, so the arms race for the bigger and badder console is probably going to slow down as the console manufacturers begin to focus on providing engaging services and experiences, now that they've made machines so powerful, comparisons between them don't even matter anymore.

Some kind of game streaming tech a la OnLive would be amazing to see implemented by a major player someday, if only because they'd do it better. Actually, Nintendo received a patent some time ago for a technology similar to that, which also allows the developers to directly send game patches and updates to the distribution servers - I remember it was a fascinating read. I can dig it up, if you're interested.

I'd actually would be interested in that patent if you can find it, but that sort of technology isn't ready yet. It would be a waste to invest in an OnLive like system next gen console since the necessary bandwidth and internet speeds for mass market appeal isn't really there yet even in most first world countries. Currently the latest graphically impressive games on the Xbox 360 and PS3 utilize about 80% to 90% percent of the total power of these machines. Its actually rather unusual to reach this level of capability in closed hardware simply because usually we'd would of already seen a console refresh.

Not that there's really much of an envelope left to push, as you're putting it. I still remember the days when the PlayStation 3 was thought of as a miniature supercomputer, and hearing news stories about them being used in clusters in scientific and military applications. But yeah, 5-year-old technology is 5-year-old technology, and it would probably be more surprising if Nintendo didn't surpass it with the Wii 2.

It would be almost impossible not to surpass the PS3 to some extent using more modern architecture. GPU's exist that would have what I'd consider in the ballpark of next gen capabilities over current consoles, but I do have one worry with next gen consoles though and in a way that explains why Microsoft and Sony are banking on 3D tvs. Going by 01Net's R700 class CPU speculation as an example the most realist mid end GPU of that family of GPU's that may not be that difficult to optimize for consoles is Radeon HD 4850, which would roughly be a little more than four times as powerful as Xbox 360's own GPU. This GPU would allow likely at native 720p lighting and physics effects on GPU side increased by four times over the Xbox 360. If you understand the little details behind the capabilities existent in current games that is an impressive increase in its own right since most games can't run on a descent FPS on 720p on current consoles with only 1/4 the effects, but the average consumer won't be capable of noticing the difference. The image will be clearer with more detail and four times more realistic physics and lighting, but the average consumer already has trouble understanding the difference between 30FPS from 60FPS, 720p from 1080p, and even sub-HD from real HD. There isn't going to be that clear cut difference between generations we're used to regardless of how much more power these machines have within a realistic range.

The most power I expect in Nintendo's next console ranges from about six times as powerful as the Xbox 360 to eight times as powerful. According to a leak from AMD picked up by Neogaf its Trinity APU is going to be in an next generation console to release in 2012, which currently if true could be the Wii 2 making the console about 6 times as powerful as Xbox 360 if its using a Radeon HD 5770 equivalent GPU. Like the situation above, this would carry over to all consoles not just Wii 2, it would no longer be possible to truly bank on the possibility that the average gamer would be able to notice a considerable difference between the new hardware and its games and the current HD consoles. In this case the console would easily be capable of native 1080p with again a large boost in physics, lighting, and A.I., but a clear cut visual difference isn't guarantied. A format beyond 1080p being made into production would go a long way to creating a visual difference that the average gamer could see, but Nintendo wouldn't bank on technology only now entering the market anyway, much less something not yet available. Sony and Microsoft are banking on 3D to be the visual distinguisher between current gen consoles and next gen. Nintendo seems to be banking on content instead regardless of how powerful their next console is going to be. Still this is something to think about Sony and Microsoft may not push too far beyond Nintendo simply because it wouldn't be beneficial.

EDIT: To explain simply the complexity of games will increase greatly next gen, but visually the improvements will be more subtle than we'd usually expect from a generational jump. From diminishing returns and simply available resolutions along with some other factors it won't be as spectacular as previous jumps because of technology limitations. So as I meant in a previous post I don't expect as large of a jump as seen in this generation by the two HD consoles over the previous generation in this coming generation simply because it wouldn't be useful. NOTE I'm only talking about how visually impressive the graphics would appear to the average consumer. Viewing distances, A.I, physics, lighting, and the general possible size of game worlds would increase noticeable in any game actually utilizing the hardware's capabilities, but overall there wouldn't be an overly noticeable increase in graphics visually.

The likely way the Virtual Console will noticeably change is by included Gamecube games to the preexisting service. I doubt there will be many at launch though merely a few of the more popular games. Outside that something I always thought Nintendo could do with the Virtual Console is offer a monthly subscription to stream access to previous games. It would be smart on Nintendo's part to do so as individuals that may not buy many games from the Virtual Console may very likely be willing to pay $11.99 a month for unlimited access. As far as storage looking at the 3DS the Wii's successor will more than likely have greater internal storage, but I have a feeling willing it will merely be 8 or 16 GBs of flash storage with the option to expand memory storage by SSD cards. At most an option to buy a dedicated external hard drive may be included among the early accessories.