152 replies to this topic

[tboss]

Some good info here;

 

http://gamrconnect.v...d.php?id=136756

 

Basically ps4 is about 5-6x more powerful than wii u overall. Which is a similar figure the ps4 has over 360 and PS3 overall. PS4 gpu is very impressive especially paired with the ultra fast memory. Cpu wise its a good upgrade on current gen but as already stated many intel PC cpus's have gone easily beyond it. Unlike the wii u though there does seem geniune cpu assistance in the gpu.

 

Its a serious upgrade over wii u but the big issue is Sony are in deep debt and seem to be desperately trying to make sure the ps4 succeeds by having a very competitive specification however Nintendo can easily drop the price of their console and by then it will have a far larger library of software. 

 

E6760 is ruffly 550 Gf, and modified, more likly to do more than less. the 376? gf count i think is the standered r700 GPU gf count, which has a near 0% chance of being in the wiiU.

Nobody can compare a thing about the PS4 CPU yet as no CPU using this specific architecture has been released yet.  However dismissing it as weak just because its a low-power CPU is silly.  The only console to ever be considered to have a strong CPU compared to the PC has been the PS3, and it wasn't all that helpful.

 

Lets not forget, the original Xbox used a Celeron which was the low-power version of the Pentium 3, but it punched well above its weight because developers were both more familiar with the architecture and also able to push it harder than on a PC due to knowing every Xbox is identical.  The PS4 has this same advantage, its similar to PC so familiar to developers but also a static configuration so can be pushed to its limit knowing every console will perform the same.

 

Also AMD have publicly said that its a much more powerful version of their chip than any of the PC versions will be, and it has some Sony specific customisations.  http://www.theinquir...aystation-4-apu  So it cannot be compared directly to a PC using a similar chip.

 

didnt read most of it. does it have a good enhancment other than putting 2 PC cores together into 1?

[Alianjaro]

Sony will have to go for innovation if they want to sell well, i guess...

[Goodtwin]

When I first heard the rumors about the 8 core CPU for the PS4 and 720, I thought they were completely bogus at the time, but that was because I was expecting a I5 or I7 based CPU.  After I read about the jaguar cpu performance and cost, it made more sense.  It may be eight cores, but these arent very powerful cores.  Dont get me wrong, it will still outperform the Wii U cpu, but on a core to core basis, they will be very comparable.  Once I had read up on the Jaguar performance, I knew that Sony was going for better looking PS3 games, and not looking to revolutionize games with highly advanced AI and Physics. 

 

Everyone wants to pick a 750 core and simply multiply the performance by three, but thats a bad way to come to an accurate conclusion.  When they say custom, they mean custom, IBM never made a 750 based CPU before that had multiple cores, the 40 nm manufacturing process was never used, and the 750 cores never clocked higher than 1 Ghz.  This isnt a simple off the shelf modified CPU, this is 100% custom.  Yes, its based on the 750 architecure to maintain backwards compatability, but this CPU could very well have the best technology that IBM ever developed for the 750 series, which is a respectable bump over the Broadway CPU in the Wii.  We could be talking about a 40% improvement in efficiency per clock, and then the obvious bump in speed from 700 Mhz to 1.24 Ghz.  We could be looking at a core that is 3 times as capable as the Broadway, and it has three of them.  The 360/PS3 CPU's were clocked to the moon, but in most game situtations the performance was nowhere near 9 times as capable as the Broadway in the Wii.  

 

Just like in the previous generation, the majority of games will be limited by the GPU, not the CPU.  Very few games really tax the CPU, assuming the code is well written.  The Jaguar may be more capable than the tri core PPC750 based cpu in Wii U, but not so much so that its going to be crunching high levels physics and AI to the point where it couldnt be scaled to work on the Wii U. 

[routerbad]

When I first heard the rumors about the 8 core CPU for the PS4 and 720, I thought they were completely bogus at the time, but that was because I was expecting a I5 or I7 based CPU.  After I read about the jaguar cpu performance and cost, it made more sense.  It may be eight cores, but these arent very powerful cores.  Dont get me wrong, it will still outperform the Wii U cpu, but on a core to core basis, they will be very comparable.  Once I had read up on the Jaguar performance, I knew that Sony was going for better looking PS3 games, and not looking to revolutionize games with highly advanced AI and Physics. 

 

Everyone wants to pick a 750 core and simply multiply the performance by three, but thats a bad way to come to an accurate conclusion.  When they say custom, they mean custom, IBM never made a 750 based CPU before that had multiple cores, the 40 nm manufacturing process was never used, and the 750 cores never clocked higher than 1 Ghz.  This isnt a simple off the shelf modified CPU, this is 100% custom.  Yes, its based on the 750 architecure to maintain backwards compatability, but this CPU could very well have the best technology that IBM ever developed for the 750 series, which is a respectable bump over the Broadway CPU in the Wii.  We could be talking about a 40% improvement in efficiency per clock, and then the obvious bump in speed from 700 Mhz to 1.24 Ghz.  We could be looking at a core that is 3 times as capable as the Broadway, and it has three of them.  The 360/PS3 CPU's were clocked to the moon, but in most game situtations the performance was nowhere near 9 times as capable as the Broadway in the Wii.  

 

Just like in the previous generation, the majority of games will be limited by the GPU, not the CPU.  Very few games really tax the CPU, assuming the code is well written.  The Jaguar may be more capable than the tri core PPC750 based cpu in Wii U, but not so much so that its going to be crunching high levels physics and AI to the point where it couldnt be scaled to work on the Wii U. 

Actually core for core the Wii U CPU should outperform the Jaguar core handily.  Even if they are underpowered cores though, there are eight of them, which gives them the ability to handle a lot of computational tasks simultaneously.  Overall the PS4 CPU is stronger in a sense just based on core count, but the Wii U CPU has a much shorter pipeline and can execute more instructions per clock than Jaguar.  

 

IBM have said that the Wii U CPU is Power Architecture based, but we know it has to be code compatible with PPC instructions.  With the strong GPU's all of the manufacturers are going with, we may see a shift to CPU limiting game performance rather than GPU, and given that, the Wii U might still have an advantage as the generation progresses.

 

The PS4 CPU seems to be more geared toward handling several operations at once rather than handling extremely CPU intensive operations.  I think they'll be moving to use the GPU to crunch physics and AI (they all will with GPGPU's).  It makes sense for Sony and Microsoft to move to a slighly underpowered CPU with several cores simply because they will have so much going on in the background.  Nintendo doesn't share the service strategy that Sony and MS do, so that many cores would be unnecessary, they just don't have as much going on on their system, it is meant to play games first and foremost. 

[Klobb]

It just seems wayyy to powerfull. I know nintendo has never been about graphics but the specs are pretty much blowing the Wiiu's out of the water


Even if the specs are true, I don't think the system will sell that well becasuse it's going to be minimum $700 for somthing like that.

You sir have truly done your research.

[Abcdude]

oh boy, major fanboy the op is here.

 

It's kind of like saying the specs on a PC is a lie, are they? Lolno, PS4 is pretty much a PC in a console if you consider it.

[the gamz girnalizt]

May I just add that before on this site, I've heard that Wii U has an Audio DSP for Audio and co-processor for OS tasks? If it's true, that's tasks taken away from the CPU.

[TheUltimateWaddleDee]

May I just add that before on this site, I've heard that Wii U has an Audio DSP for Audio and co-processor for OS tasks? If it's true, that's tasks taken away from the CPU.

I'm not going to pretend like I know anything about this stuff, but I so know that the Wii U was designed to take the most work off the CPU, which is odd consdering a lot of game engines nowadays are CPU centered.

[routerbad]

I'm not going to pretend like I know anything about this stuff, but I so know that the Wii U was designed to take the most work off the CPU, which is odd consdering a lot of game engines nowadays are CPU centered.

On consoles.  Most game engines on PC are GPU centered.  

 

Wii U does have a co-processor and audio DSP, that much we can see on the die.

[FanboyKilla]

Wow. I remember when fanboys from sony were calling the WIIU cpu underpowered and horrible lol. Now that the ps4 has an underclocked cpu, now they understan why lol. Idiots. Its good to hear finally now that the ps4 specs are out, that WIIU will not be another WII, which is what has been said since the bgining by Nintendo and other devz. WIIU will be sailing smooth untill its next console that will repeat this trend and eclipse the ps4 just as it has the ps3 and 360. Troll fanboys can now continue their defensive rants here-------------->

[Dukie]

Wow. I remember when fanboys from sony were calling the WIIU cpu underpowered and horrible lol. Now that the ps4 has an underclocked cpu, now they understan why lol. Idiots. Its good to hear finally now that the ps4 specs are out, that WIIU will not be another WII, which is what has been said since the bgining by Nintendo and other devz. WIIU will be sailing smooth untill its next console that will repeat this trend and eclipse the ps4 just as it has the ps3 and 360. Troll fanboys can now continue their defensive rants here-------------->

Your username is a big contradiction, considering you sound like a huge fanboy yourself. Just sayin'.

Edited by Dukie, 09 March 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[Hunter]

Your username is a big contradiction, considering you sound like a huge fanboy yourself. Just sayin'.

 

He's a fanboy killa, he kills fanboys

[Plutonas]

another problems pops up, reading the ps4 specs..

 

They all say... woow upi... 8 core they run like chitas in the jungle.. with 8 gigs for GDDR5... upi... lol

 

But there is basic principals between ddr3 and gddr5....  GDDR5 cannot be used (well) with cpu tasks and cpu cores at all!!!.... ddr3 is AWAY to better.

 

because gddr5 ram is designed for gpus and specific tasks much faster... CPU must be always linked to the ram for its executions... something gddr5 ram is not good at all... .. hmmm

 

So yes, many people who speak about bottlenecks.. its not only for the "8" cores... but also for the gddr5.  Maybe thats why ms goes with ddr3 instead.

Edited by Plutonas, 09 March 2013 - 02:57 PM.

[Gamejunkie]

Wow. I remember when fanboys from sony were calling the WIIU cpu underpowered and horrible lol. Now that the ps4 has an underclocked cpu, now they understan why lol. Idiots. Its good to hear finally now that the ps4 specs are out, that WIIU will not be another WII, which is what has been said since the bgining by Nintendo and other devz. WIIU will be sailing smooth untill its next console that will repeat this trend and eclipse the ps4 just as it has the ps3 and 360. Troll fanboys can now continue their defensive rants here-------------->

Considering you you yourself sound like a fanboy that post has no credibility.

[3Dude]

Plutonas, on 09 Mar 2013 - 09:04, said:another problems pops up, reading the ps4 specs..
They all say... woow upi... 8 core they run like chitas in the jungle.. with 8 gigs for GDDR5... upi... lol
But there is basic principals between ddr3 and gddr5....  GDDR5 cannot be used (well) with cpu tasks and cpu cores at all!!!.... ddr3 is AWAY to better.
because gddr5 ram is designed for gpus and specific tasks much faster... CPU must be always linked to the ram for its executions... something gddr5 ram is not good at all... .. hmmm
So yes, many people who speak about bottlenecks.. its not only for the "8" cores... but also for the gddr5.  Maybe thats why ms goes with ddr3 instead.


--------------------------------

This is because gddr5 has very high latency compared to ddr3. Its typically mitigated by the fact gddr5 can be clocked much, much higher.

Hmmm... Do we know what the gddr5 is clocked at yet?

[Lunity]

Come on guys the console hasn't launched and Microsoft haven't showed their hand either until I physically see the consoles I'm not going to speculate I must admit looking at the spec on sonys new console anybody that says the wii u can compete in raw power is deluded and Sony will not be the most expensive on the market this time I expect that to go to microsoft but only just the problem I find with Sony and what happened to the PS3 and what will probably happen to the PS4 is its all well and good having that extra raw power over the Wii U but it's an entirely different thing trying to utilise it I would go as far as say that it took Sony right near the end of the PS3 life to fully utilise it and actually games to live upto the hardware this generation I actually think will be more about the games than ever before and not the hardware!!! And I actually think this is where Wii U will struggle they need alot more third party support than their getting I mean look at PS4 Lineup it's impressive to say the least and I'm pretty sure microsofts will be similar Nintendo need to up ther game on this part.

[Desert Punk]

I think the easiest way to work this out is again using the memory bandwidth of the wii u this is a known exact figure. It is 12.8GB/s compared to 176GB/s for PS4. 360 and PS3 are in the 20-25GB/s territory. This memory represents the total amount of traffic that can go between the gpu, cpu and memory. If you want to make ridiculous claims that the wii u cpu is powerful then you do so at the expense of the gpu. We really don't know the exact performance of the wii u gpu or cpu but we know how much memory bandwidth it has available to share between them and that information allows us to gauge real world performance. Yes there is cache in the cpu and the gpu has 32MB of fast video memory but neither of these will magically get around that 12.8GB/s memory bandwidth figure.

 

Given those memory bandwidth restraints we can say the slightly more modern gpu architecture which relies slightly less on cpu resources will take the maximum chunk of memory bandwidth especially as it has 32MB of high speed video memory. This leaves minimal amount of bandwidth left over for the cpu which probably performs in the 60-80% area of performance compared to 360/PS3. Overall the wii u is current gen performance.  However someone else may believe the cpu actually performs to a higher level at the expense of gpu performance which is possible as long as you live within the restrictions of 12.8GB/s. What is not reasonable or logical or based on any realistic viewpoint is to continue pretending that a console with 12.8GB/s bandwidth has comparable cpu and gpu performance to a console making use of 176GB/s. Clearly the PS4 has something like 15 times the memory bandwidth and it is highly unlikely that bandwidth will not be utilised. Especially with an 8 core cpu and multicore gpu.

 

Any argument stating the wii u being comparable to ps4 in performance has to first deal with the 12.8GB/s issue otherwise the argument is utterly pointless. You need to come up with an explanation on how that is possible. For reference the memory bandwidth difference between the original playstation 1 and playstation 2 is 24x the memory bandwidth and that was a huge generational jump.

 

I'm totally and utterly convinced the wii u is a current gen console in technogy. The specification supports it, game performance supports it, the developer leaks support it. All avenues of information support it.

[kingdomcode]

well that confirms it the wiiu will meet the same fate as the wii *crys*

[Alex Atkin UK]

It needn't be the same fate as Wii, because porting down to Wii U is much easier than porting to Wii was.

 

Its not so much the power, its the architecture.  While the Wii U might be low powered, its still using hardware based on recent generations of GPU which where the Wii had a problem, it was much older technology so wouldn't easily run modern game engines.

[3Dude]

Desert Punk, on 10 Mar 2013 - 05:47, said:I think the easiest way to work this out is again using the memory bandwidth of the wii u this is a known exact figure. It is 12.8GB/s compared to 176GB/s for PS4. 360 and PS3 are in the 20-25GB/s territory. This memory represents the total amount of traffic that can go between the gpu, cpu and memory. If you want to make ridiculous claims that the wii u cpu is powerful then you do so at the expense of the gpu. We really don't know the exact performance of the wii u gpu or cpu but we know how much memory bandwidth it has available to share between them and that information allows us to gauge real world performance. Yes there is cache in the cpu and the gpu has 32MB of fast video memory but neither of these will magically get around that 12.8GB/s memory bandwidth figure.
Given those memory bandwidth restraints we can say the slightly more modern gpu architecture which relies slightly less on cpu resources will take the maximum chunk of memory bandwidth especially as it has 32MB of high speed video memory. This leaves minimal amount of bandwidth left over for the cpu which probably performs in the 60-80% area of performance compared to 360/PS3. Overall the wii u is current gen performance.  However someone else may believe the cpu actually performs to a higher level at the expense of gpu performance which is possible as long as you live within the restrictions of 12.8GB/s. What is not reasonable or logical or based on any realistic viewpoint is to continue pretending that a console with 12.8GB/s bandwidth has comparable cpu and gpu performance to a console making use of 176GB/s. Clearly the PS4 has something like 15 times the memory bandwidth and it is highly unlikely that bandwidth will not be utilised. Especially with an 8 core cpu and multicore gpu.
Any argument stating the wii u being comparable to ps4 in performance has to first deal with the 12.8GB/s issue otherwise the argument is utterly pointless. You need to come up with an explanation on how that is possible. For reference the memory bandwidth difference between the original playstation 1 and playstation 2 is 24x the memory bandwidth and that was a huge generational jump.
I'm totally and utterly convinced the wii u is a current gen console in technogy. The specification supports it, game performance supports it, the developer leaks support it. All avenues of information support it.


No, the old, outdated, and openly mocked information you desperately cling to supports it. And you actively do gymnastics to avoid all information to the contrary.

The wii u has a memory bandwidth of over 200GB/s, with its embedded ram pools, you clearly have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER HOW THIS WORKS. 12GB/s is more than enough for ram whose only purpose is to hold assets and textures that arent immediately needed to be used. Its called a MEMORY HEIARCHY. I know youve been avoiding it like the plauge, because it destroys your little fantasy, but weve got die shots of the gpu, and the xenos cant touch this thing.

And its starting to show more and more. Especially with criterion showing your erroneous bandwidth argument for the giant load of propaganda crap it is by praising the bandwidth. And then showing this.

http://www.nintengen...d-wii-u-vs.html

Saying it literally took them 10 minutes. They imported the pc textures and were done.


Done.
Like you and your narrative. You're done. Its over. You have ran out the finite amount of time you had before screens of non crap games and ports became available destroying your arguments in the eyes of people who didnt have the knowledge base to realize youve been spewing nothing but nonsense.

Now its plain for everyone to see, your narrative is wrong, and its only going to look worse and worse for you.

Edited by 3Dude, 10 March 2013 - 04:01 PM.