230 replies to this topic

[routerbad]

I think you're severely downplaying the PS4 hardware and talking up the Wii U hardware just a bit there. The first PS4 demos are already showing a noticeable increase in polygon counts, effects as well as much more subtle lighting and shadowing...and the games that are about to be shown at E3 are also looking mighty impressive.

 

The increase in fidelity will likely be very apparent from the get go this generation because I think that a lot of UE4 PC development is going to scale nicely down to PS4/720 games while the Wii U will be getting UE3 games that look like prettier versions of current generation games.

 

I'll agree that the Wii U might not get a fair showing for a long time as it's looking like no third party is going to really push the hardware anytime soon, but that's no reason to not give the PS4 credit for being an impressive piece of kit.

Really?  A noticeable increase in polygon counts?  Right there I can tell that you are either being completely disingenuous on purpose (lying to make a point) or you really have no idea what you're looking at.  There was no noticeable increase in poly count in anything that was live rendered at the reveal, and "more subtle lighting and shadowing" or SSAO, can also be done on the Wii U. 

 

I'm afraid any supposed increase in fidelity won't show through as well as you think it will.  The PS4 can't handle the main draw of UE4 anyway, and the only reason it won't be created for Wii U isn't for lack of power, they don't want to make an engine for the only Power ISA based console, that is all.  They'll eventually bring it to Wii U, just not up front.

 

The PS4 is an impressive piece of kit, and it will do great things, but there are too many people overhyping and overstating it's capability rather than being realistic about what it will do, which is marginally better than the other consoles this generation.  That's it, it will not be some mind blowing difference in fidelity between the Wii U and PS4, and all of the advanced rendering techniques are present on both.  Sure the PS4 has a nice GPU, but what it will amount to in game over and above what Wii U or the 720 (also supposedly has a "weak" GPU) is very little to none.

[Chaz]

Really? A noticeable increase in polygon counts? Right there I can tell that you are either being completely disingenuous on purpose (lying to make a point) or you really have no idea what you're looking at. There was no noticeable increase in poly count in anything that was live rendered at the reveal...

I'm looking primarily at the Deep Down footage and the Killzone footage. Assuming that Capcom and Sony are to be believed and that is in-game footage, the character and environment models in Deep Down are quite a bit more detailed than the current generation console games - Wii U included. Killzone is showing a lot of nice effects and a pretty decent attempt at physically plausible shading.

...and "more subtle lighting and shadowing" or SSAO, can also be done on the Wii U.

Ambient occlusion is a self-shadowing hack. I was referring more to the use of soft shadows and realistic falloffs.

I'm afraid any supposed increase in fidelity won't show through as well as you think it will. The PS4 can't handle the main draw of UE4 anyway...

What is the "main draw" of UE4??

...and the only reason it won't be created for Wii U isn't for lack of power, they don't want to make an engine for the only Power ISA based console, that is all. They'll eventually bring it to Wii U, just not up front.

Lots of conclusions being drawn here. I'm more inclined the simplest explanation: Mark Rein is telling us - albeit in a rather snide way - that UE3 is more suited to the Wii U's GPU, and UE4 to the PC/PS4/720. The Wii U GPU is not optimized for DX11 and the other platforms are (I'm not saying that DX11 is required for UE4 by any means, but that that class of hardware is more suited to its capabilities.)

The PS4 is an impressive piece of kit, and it will do great things, but there are too many people overhyping and overstating it's capability rather than being realistic about what it will do, which is marginally better than the other consoles this generation.

I think that too little has been shown of the PS4's abilities yet to pass that kind of judgement....it's not even E3.

[3Dude]

What is the "main draw" of UE4??

------------------------------------------------
Sparse Voxel Octree Global Illumination

Its more than gi, the data it gathers powers just about every pixel operation thats new.

[Kokirii]

\

 

...if they pull the WiiU like they did with the 3DS when they released the XL they will really pee off the loyal fans who brought on day one, i myself will never buy a Nintendo system after the 3DS & WiiU launch issues...

 

 

I'm with you on this.

[routerbad]

I'm looking primarily at the Deep Down footage and the Killzone footage. Assuming that Capcom and Sony are to be believed and that is in-game footage, the character and environment models in Deep Down are quite a bit more detailed than the current generation console games - Wii U included. Killzone is showing a lot of nice effects and a pretty decent attempt at physically plausible shading.


Ambient occlusion is a self-shadowing hack. I was referring more to the use of soft shadows and realistic falloffs.


What is the "main draw" of UE4??


Lots of conclusions being drawn here. I'm more inclined the simplest explanation: Mark Rein is telling us - albeit in a rather snide way - that UE3 is more suited to the Wii U's GPU, and UE4 to the PC/PS4/720. The Wii U GPU is not optimized for DX11 and the other platforms are (I'm not saying that DX11 is required for UE4 by any means, but that that class of hardware is more suited to its capabilities.)


I think that too little has been shown of the PS4's abilities yet to pass that kind of judgement....it's not even E3.

They never claimed Deep Down was in game or even live rendered.  What they did claim is that it was in engine.  Pay attention to what they say.  Take a look at the bird demo again, which shows even more detailed animations, shading, and volumetric effects.

 

You are referring to global illumination, which is something the Wii U GPU was built to handle on bare metal.  Saying it can't be done on other systems just because CAPCOM showed an experimental engine doesn't really fly.

 

No, what he's telling us is that they've already made UE3 for Wii U and haven't pulled enough revenue from the effort yet.  They aren't going to port UE4 themselves until they see a business case for it.  They also know that there is little visual impact benefit over UE3 on consoles in general.  He isn't saying that the PS4 or 720 are "more" suited to UE4, it was built to scale down to mobile devices.  What he's saying in a nutshell is "UE4 is great but what's the point when you already have UE3.  Oh yeah we'll be porting it to the X86 consoles because that's relatively easy even if the new features won't be available in actuality.

 

We can deduce the capability from the hardware, because unlike the Wii U, we can know anything we want to about what Sony is including.  

Edited by routerbad, 02 April 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[Chaz]

We can deduce the capability from the hardware, because unlike the Wii U, we can know anything we want to about what Sony is including.

That's great for you, but I prefer to analyze what I can see in front of me rather than making assumptions.

They never claimed Deep Down was in game or even live rendered. What they did claim is that it was in engine. Pay attention to what they say. Take a look at the bird demo again, which shows even more detailed animations, shading, and volumetric effects.

Capcom's made statements at GDC claiming that Deep Down is being rendered on the PS4 hardware. I'd take that with a grain of salt... but if it's true, then there's really nothing more to discuss here.

You are referring to global illumination, which is something the Wii U GPU was built to handle on bare metal. Saying it can't be done on other systems just because CAPCOM showed an experimental engine doesn't really fly.

I didn't say a word about global illumination, nor did I say that it can't be done on the Wii U. I'm curious though, how are we deducing that the Wii U even supports GI?

Saying that the Wii U was built to handle GI "on bare metal" (whatever that means) isn't really an argument anyway: you can render pretty much anything on the Wii U if you're willing to wait long enough. The question is how much you can render and keep up am acceptable frame rate.

My point is simply that I've seen nothing running on the Wii U that shows anywhere near the amount of lighting and effects shown in the PS4 demos, and if Sony is indeed sincere about their first and second party titles running at 1080p, then I'm doubly impressed.

He isn't saying that the PS4 or 720 are "more" suited to UE4...

Well, he kind of *is* saying that... what else can you glean from him showcasing his new engine at the PS4 announcement...or his statement that the PS4 is "a really perfect gaming PC??" Snarky remarks about Nintendo aside, he's basically told us that for next-gen consoles and PC, UE4 is the best choice, for Wii U stick with UE3. I'm not sure why that's a bad thing anyway.

Edited by Chaz, 02 April 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[3Dude]

I really wouldnt take anything ANYONE has to say about nintendo at face value. The anti nintendo bias is just to deeply permeated.

I mean look at the ram situation. Its been a 'KNOWN FACT' for months that the wii u bandwidth is lower than 360's because some guybdoing a teardown guessed it by looking up the serial number to the ram chip.

Too bad the wii u uses THE EXACT SAME SAMSUNG RAM CHIPS WITH THE EXACT SAME SERIAL NUMBER AS THE 360.

But its half the bandwidth because nintendo.

Peoples bias are just far, far too deeply ingrained to be trying to talk about this stuff.

By the way, ww hd screens use gi on the character models (from environment) and i fricking hate it. Not in wind waker. no.

[thechamp80]

These people defending the Wii U's specs to the death just have to stop. 

[routerbad]

That's great for you, but I prefer to analyze what I can see in front of me rather than making assumptions.

Capcom's made statements at GDC claiming that Deep Down is being rendered on the PS4 hardware. I'd take that with a grain of salt... but if it's true, then there's really nothing more to discuss here.

I didn't say a word about global illumination, nor did I say that it can't be done on the Wii U. I'm curious though, how are we deducing that the Wii U even supports GI?

Saying that the Wii U was built to handle GI "on bare metal" (whatever that means) isn't really an argument anyway: you can render pretty much anything on the Wii U if you're willing to wait long enough. The question is how much you can render and keep up am acceptable frame rate.

My point is simply that I've seen nothing running on the Wii U that shows anywhere near the amount of lighting and effects shown in the PS4 demos, and if Sony is indeed sincere about their first and second party titles running at 1080p, then I'm doubly impressed.

Well, he kind of *is* saying that... what else can you glean from him showcasing his new engine at the PS4 announcement...or his statement that the PS4 is "a really perfect gaming PC??" Snarky remarks about Nintendo aside, he's basically told us that for next-gen consoles and PC, UE4 is the best choice, for Wii U stick with UE3. I'm not sure why that's a bad thing anyway.

I understand that you like to analyze what's in front of you, but that isn't what you are doing here, you are making assumptions based on an overhyped reveal reel with videos and renders running without any game code.

 

On bare metal, means that there is dedicated logic to handle global illumination, something they made a big deal out of with the Zelda demo.  

 

Again, take a look at the bird demo, it is really quite fascinating and was done two years ago.  That one is a live render running on early hardware prototypes with again zero game code.

 

EPIC have already made it clear that PS4 will not support much in the way of the new effects introduced with UE4, it will be scaled down just as all other versions other than PC will be.  They made the reveal at the Sony event because Sony invited them to, Sony's aim was to point out that they are offering a lot to devs, which is great.  Hyping is fine, but overhyping based on over emphasized specs at a reveal is not.  Also, saying for Wii U stick with UE3 means "hey we've already made this other engine work and it also looks amazing, why not just use that?" because they put resources into creating the engine on Wii U and would probably like to see some return on that investment.  If there is a return on investment for that, we will see UE4 on Wii U.  Keep in mind too that Sony is most likely paying for the lip service they are getting about their console.  Notice EA has been tight lipped about it, and considering the "partnership" we heard about between them and MS, don't be surprised when EA touts the 720 as the greatest and most powerful console since ever.  They are never being as upfront about what is really going on as you would like to think.  

I really wouldnt take anything ANYONE has to say about nintendo at face value. The anti nintendo bias is just to deeply permeated.

I mean look at the ram situation. Its been a 'KNOWN FACT' for months that the wii u bandwidth is lower than 360's because some guybdoing a teardown guessed it by looking up the serial number to the ram chip.

Too bad the wii u uses THE EXACT SAME SAMSUNG RAM CHIPS WITH THE EXACT SAME SERIAL NUMBER AS THE 360.

But its half the bandwidth because nintendo.

Peoples bias are just far, far too deeply ingrained to be trying to talk about this stuff.

By the way, ww hd screens use gi on the character models (from environment) and i fricking hate it. Not in wind waker. no.

Even on an interface that supports twice the transfer rate of GDDR3 on the same array.

These people defending the Wii U's specs to the death just have to stop. 

Well, come with something other than bias and "Deep Down, so PS4".  I wouldn't defend it if what was being said about it was even remotely accurate.  That doesn't even bother me as much as the overhype being thrown around for the PS4.  None of you wants to accept it for what it is.  A low spec PC with components that are marginally better and lots of memory.

[thechamp80]

I understand that you like to analyze what's in front of you, but that isn't what you are doing here, you are making assumptions based on an overhyped reveal reel with videos and renders running without any game code.

 

On bare metal, means that there is dedicated logic to handle global illumination, something they made a big deal out of with the Zelda demo.  

 

Again, take a look at the bird demo, it is really quite fascinating and was done two years ago.  That one is a live render running on early hardware prototypes with again zero game code.

 

EPIC have already made it clear that PS4 will not support much in the way of the new effects introduced with UE4, it will be scaled down just as all other versions other than PC will be.  They made the reveal at the Sony event because Sony invited them to, Sony's aim was to point out that they are offering a lot to devs, which is great.  Hyping is fine, but overhyping based on over emphasized specs at a reveal is not.  Also, saying for Wii U stick with UE3 means "hey we've already made this other engine work and it also looks amazing, why not just use that?" because they put resources into creating the engine on Wii U and would probably like to see some return on that investment.  If there is a return on investment for that, we will see UE4 on Wii U.  Keep in mind too that Sony is most likely paying for the lip service they are getting about their console.  Notice EA has been tight lipped about it, and considering the "partnership" we heard about between them and MS, don't be surprised when EA touts the 720 as the greatest and most powerful console since ever.  They are never being as upfront about what is really going on as you would like to think.  

Even on an interface that supports twice the transfer rate of GDDR3 on the same array.

Well, come with something other than bias and "Deep Down, so PS4".  I wouldn't defend it if what was being said about it was even remotely accurate.  That doesn't even bother me as much as the overhype being thrown around for the PS4.  None of you wants to accept it for what it is.  A low spec PC with components that are marginally better and lots of memory.

 8GB DDR5. Nuff said. And you don't want to accept the Wii U spec's for what they are: terrible. It's like if Sony released a handheld that had the same specs as the 3DS 5 years from now. Nintendo are cheap bastards and that is what is going to kill the Wii U.

[3Dude]

thechamp80, on 02 Apr 2013 - 06:39, said: 8GB DDR5. Nuff said. And you don't want to accept the Wii U spec's for what they are: terrible. It's like if Sony released a handheld that had the same specs as the 3DS 5 years from now. Nintendo are cheap bastards and that is what is going to kill the Wii U.

[routerbad]

thechamp80, on 02 Apr 2013 - 06:39, said: 8GB DDR5. Nuff said. And you don't want to accept the Wii U spec's for what they are: terrible. It's like if Sony released a handheld that had the same specs as the 3DS 5 years from now. Nintendo are cheap bastards and that is what is going to kill the Wii U.

 

Thanks, you just made it abundantly clear how very little you know about how computing systems operate.  It's hard to call something terrible when even the best at decoding and analyzing hardware still haven't the foggiest idea of what half the components are doing.  

 

I'll enter your fantasy land for a moment and accept your premise that the Wii U specs are "terrible".  What is the PS4 then?  Those specs are only slightly less terrible in the grand scheme of things.  When images are rendered to the screen, one will give you HD and the other will give you...HD.  8GB of GDDR5 don't really make a difference either if filling up whatever space is available after it's services put their reservations out there only gives you slightly more detailed textures or (more appropriately) slightly less compressed textures.  It also doesn't help when you put 8GB of GDDR5 on a 128bit bus, whatever speed enhancements you get from the DRAM arrays being clocked higher get sacrificed to much higher latency.  Like I keep saying, each platform will have advantages and drawbacks that developers will have to work with to create compelling software.

 

We are talking about actual hardware design and how that comes together to make a system work, your best rebuttal so far was "but Deep Down, 8GB, nuff said.  Your argument is swiss cheese, you say in one post you prefer to analyze what's in front of you, but we know far more about what is inside the PS4 from Sony's own lips than what the most talented people analyzing microscopic photographs of the Wii U MCM know about the Wii U.  But you'll call the Wii U specs terrible and refuse to accept any information on the PS4 specs, because they aren't in front of you?  Riiiight, you're just waiting for the glowing Anandtech article on the PS4 teardown, 'cause we all know how accurate their last console teardown was.  Just like we all know how objective and accurate the Digital Foundry Wii U articles have been thus far.  There is a reason to defend the hardware in the Wii U, because the anti Nintendo bias is all over the place in the videogame media, because nothing gets clicks more than Nintendo hatred, interestingly enough.

[Chaz]

I understand that you like to analyze what's in front of you, but that isn't what you are doing here, you are making assumptions based on an overhyped reveal reel with videos and renders running without any game code.

But who's to say that these trailers are inaccurate or this isn't running on PS4 hardware?

On bare metal, means that there is dedicated logic to handle global illumination, something they made a big deal out of with the Zelda demo.

They who?

Again, I'm having a hard time determining what's fact and fiction here. As near as I can tell, the global illumination seen in the Wind Waker demo is a diffuse colorbleeding pixel shader, and not at all the technique used in the UE4 demos. If you're making the assumption that the Wii U has secret hardware features that the PS4 doesn't, I'd have a really hard time believing that....unless someone from ATI or Nintendo has confirmed this feature.

EPIC have already made it clear that PS4 will not support much in the way of the new effects introduced with UE4, it will be scaled down just as all other versions other than PC will be.

Again, aside from global illumination not being in the console versions of UE4, what else has Epic confirmed to not be there?

I'm sorry, but I find your argument to be extremely one-sided. I'm perfectly willing to accept that the PS4 trailers might be fictional, but I also see no evidence to support any of your claims about the Wii U hardware being as full-featured as you claim.

[thechamp80]

Thanks, you just made it abundantly clear how very little you know about how computing systems operate.  It's hard to call something terrible when even the best at decoding and analyzing hardware still haven't the foggiest idea of what half the components are doing.  

 

I'll enter your fantasy land for a moment and accept your premise that the Wii U specs are "terrible".  What is the PS4 then?  Those specs are only slightly less terrible in the grand scheme of things.  When images are rendered to the screen, one will give you HD and the other will give you...HD.  8GB of GDDR5 don't really make a difference either if filling up whatever space is available after it's services put their reservations out there only gives you slightly more detailed textures or (more appropriately) slightly less compressed textures.  It also doesn't help when you put 8GB of GDDR5 on a 128bit bus, whatever speed enhancements you get from the DRAM arrays being clocked higher get sacrificed to much higher latency.  Like I keep saying, each platform will have advantages and drawbacks that developers will have to work with to create compelling software.

 

We are talking about actual hardware design and how that comes together to make a system work, your best rebuttal so far was "but Deep Down, 8GB, nuff said.  Your argument is swiss cheese, you say in one post you prefer to analyze what's in front of you, but we know far more about what is inside the PS4 from Sony's own lips than what the most talented people analyzing microscopic photographs of the Wii U MCM know about the Wii U.  But you'll call the Wii U specs terrible and refuse to accept any information on the PS4 specs, because they aren't in front of you?  Riiiight, you're just waiting for the glowing Anandtech article on the PS4 teardown, 'cause we all know how accurate their last console teardown was.  Just like we all know how objective and accurate the Digital Foundry Wii U articles have been thus far.  There is a reason to defend the hardware in the Wii U, because the anti Nintendo bias is all over the place in the videogame media, because nothing gets clicks more than Nintendo hatred, interestingly enough.

8GB GDDR5. All day . What does the Wii U have -2GB? lololololol. Oh man its over. 

Edited by thechamp80, 02 April 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[routerbad]

But who's to say that these trailers are inaccurate or this isn't running on PS4 hardware?


They who?

Again, I'm having a hard time determining what's fact and fiction here. As near as I can tell, the global illumination seen in the Wind Waker demo is a diffuse colorbleeding pixel shader, and not at all the technique used in the UE4 demos. If you're making the assumption that the Wii U has secret hardware features that the PS4 doesn't, I'd have a really hard time believing that....unless someone from ATI or Nintendo has confirmed this feature.


Again, aside from global illumination not being in the console versions of UE4, what else has Epic confirmed to not be there?

I'm sorry, but I find your argument to be extremely one-sided. I'm perfectly willing to accept that the PS4 trailers might be fictional, but I also see no evidence to support any of your claims about the Wii U hardware being as full-featured as you claim.

Honestly, I don't think anyone knows exactly what method is being used for global illumination, but I'll take Point based diffuse GI.  

 

As 3Dude already stated, Sparse Voxel Octree GI doesn't just affect GI, but all of the new pixel affects in UE4, it drives pretty much everything.

 

I didn't claim anything about the Wii U hardware, in fact what I keep having to repeat to you is that we know more about the PS4 hardware than we do about the Wii U even today, it's your argument that is one sided, and you keep trying to use a strawman because you can't argue with what I've been saying, which was

 

"Your argument is swiss cheese, you say in one post you prefer to analyze what's in front of you, but we know far more about what is inside the PS4 from Sony's own lips than what the most talented people analyzing microscopic photographs of the Wii U MCM know about the Wii U.  But you'll call the Wii U specs terrible and refuse to accept any information on the PS4 specs, because they aren't in front of you?"  Where in there did I make any claim whatsoever about the Wii U?

 

Also, about GI being in the Wii U, that isn't speculation, the whole reason the Zelda demo existed was to show it off, and NintendoLand and WW HD show it as well.  The Wii U also has a hardware tessellator, and that effect is shown off in NintendoLand as well.  Up to 50% of the GPU logic is more than likely either flexible fixed function shaders, or some other form of dedicated silicon, there is so much about it that isn't known, either way, it's intent is to pull common tasks from the unified shaders to ensure a minimum level of quality, per Nintendo's own design ethos.

 

I haven't argued once that the PS4 won't be the most powerful console this gen, only that it isn't as powerful as it is being hyped to be.  We know what's in it, they've already told us.  It won't be the powerhouse people think it will, it will be incrementally better than last gen with a few new tricks and a boatload of new PSN services.

8GB GDDR5. All day . What does the Wii U have -2GB? lololololol. Oh man its over

Now you're just blatantly trolling.  XD

[3Dude]

thechamp80, on 02 Apr 2013 - 08:30, said:8GB GDDR5. All day . What does the Wii U have -2GB? lololololol. Oh man its over. 



GDDR5
-Pro: Higher bandwith and speed
-Con: Not made for CPU and OS
-Con: Higher latency

There is a reason you dont use gddr5 with cpu's on pc's. Its only on graphics cards. That latency is going to be quite the thorn.

[thechamp80]

Oh man its gonna be fun when you guys try to defend Nintendo when they don't have any 3rd party games. But I'll let you wander around in self denial now.

[routerbad]

Oh man its gonna be fun when you guys try to defend Nintendo when they don't have any 3rd party games. But I'll let you wander around in self denial now.

We already have 3rd party games announced for the future, and the only publisher that is actively snubbing Wii U is EA, and we know the reason for that.

 

We won't need to defend Nintendo for having weak third party support, it isn't up to them to code other developers' games for their console.  If the developers want to make a Wii U game, they can, Nintendo is making it easy for everyone from the biggest publishers and developers, down to the smallest indie developers.

 

Third party support in and of itself is not indemnification of the consoles abilities.  A more appropriate post would have been to say "its gonna be fun when the multiplats look better on other platforms" but since there is little in the way of tangible evidence to prove that point, I can see why you refrained.

 

I have a gaming PC, so I'm not overly concerned with 3rd party support, though I would like it, and would support 3rd parties that decide to develop for Wii U.  But alas, your entire argument is a string of strawmen, and rarely have I seen a cogent post from you, though there have been some.

 

You seem to be forgetting that it isn't all about defending Nintendo or the Wii U, per se, but taking a realistic and holistic approach to assessing the hardware and what each system is and will be capable of.  I'll say it again, the PS4 will be more powerful than the Wii U, but I maintain that those advantages in hardware will amount to very little in a game environment.

Edited by routerbad, 02 April 2013 - 03:45 PM.

[Chaz]

But you'll call the Wii U specs terrible and refuse to accept any information on the PS4 specs, because they aren't in front of you?

You keep telling us that the trailers aren't to be believed, and aren't running on PS4 hardware, but nowhere do you back up your claims. You say that we know all these things about the PS4 hardware already based on just a simple spec sheet, and made judgements on the games' visual qualities before ever having seen a game running on it or even an E3 trailer. Hell, you're even benchmarking the PS4 CPU against the Wii U's. So yeah, I don't think I'm being unreasonable questioning your observations.

I'll accept any information you have on the PS4, provided you can substantiate it. Until then, I can only look at what Sony, Capcom and others have shown and speculate based on that.

For the record, I don't think I ever said that the Wii U's specs were terrible.

I didn't claim anything about the Wii U hardware...

Well, you just claimed that the Wii U has dedicated hardware support for global illumination. Source?

Also, about GI being in the Wii U, that isn't speculation, the whole reason the Zelda demo existed was to show it off

I don't remember Nintendo or ATI ever saying that...so again,  source?

[Alianjaro]

I NEVER thought I would be considering switching to someone other than Nintendo... But things are becoming crystal clear. After 20+ years of gaming on Nintendo Only products its looking like a change is coming. Nintendo for me E3 is your saving grace. Show up with bombs please I'm begging you.

Bro calm down... Doom and Gloom is getting on your nerves... It can run UE4, they just won't port it themselves.

 

I agree with Nollog, they're getting out of business soon.