118 replies to this topic

[Socalmuscle]

The GPU still sucks though.

 

 

LOL

 

The best part of the system.

[Nintyfan86]

we will see but with what i know the Wii u is capable of and seeing that Bayonetta 2 demo from E3... its just hard for me to go out and spend 60 dollars on a Wii U game that is barely up to 360 standards. Shin'en has gone on record multiple times nowstating how to get the most out of the console and if Ubi is having problems they are big enough to go or call up nintendo techs and say help us get the game running smooth on Wii U.

 

I agree. I have been doing a lot of PC gaming lately, and, honestly, consoles are the platform of choice for exclusives at the end of the day. Whether that is exclusive features or IPs, they should not be purchased for power IMO. 

 

My decision from this experience was to simply buy my third party titles on PC from now on, and the exclusives on consoles. I hate having to do this, but the third party games outside of Rayman are too much of a focus for me to risk playing 360 version of for full price (when I can use my rig to play beyond PS4 standards for the same games, at the same price).  

 

Something is truly fishy here, especially considering that the Ubisoft games for Wii U are getting NO screen time outside of Rayman and Splinter Cell. 

[GAMER1984]

I agree. I have been doing a lot of PC gaming lately, and, honestly, consoles are the platform of choice for exclusives at the end of the day. Whether that is exclusive features or IPs, they should not be purchased for power IMO.

My decision from this experience was to simply buy my third party titles on PC from now on, and the exclusives on consoles. I hate having to do this, but the third party games outside of Rayman are too much of a focus for me to risk playing 360 version of for full price (when I can use my rig to play beyond PS4 standards for the same games, at the same price).

Something is truly fishy here, especially considering that the Ubisoft games for Wii U are getting NO screen time outside of Rayman and Splinter Cell.

Yeah you go around the internet and most gamers praise ubi for supporting Wii U. I'm happy they are bringing all their heavy hitters this year also. I'm still not an idiot though and I can tell when a game isn't being promoted. Splinter cell just isn't being promoted enough and ubi isn't saying much about the console other than pr damage control. Saying stuff like oh never count Nintendo out and Wii U is going to have a big cjhristmas. I take those as PR just so they can show if the console turns around look we were supporting Nintendo the whole time yet you aren't talking up the Wii U version of splinter cell and how it "should" be an overall better experience then what can be found on last gen consoles. The Wii U is next gen let's face it and I hope publishers and developers start acting like it.

[Nintyfan86]

Yeah you go around the internet and most gamers praise ubi for supporting Wii U. I'm happy they are bringing all their heavy hitters this year also. I'm still not an idiot though and I can tell when a game isn't being promoted. Splinter cell just isn't being promoted enough and ubi isn't saying much about the console other than pr damage control. Saying stuff like oh never count Nintendo out and Wii U is going to have a big cjhristmas. I take those as PR just so they can show if the console turns around look we were supporting Nintendo the whole time yet you aren't talking up the Wii U version of splinter cell and how it "should" be an overall better experience then what can be found on last gen consoles. The Wii U is next gen let's face it and I hope publishers and developers start acting like it.

No doubt. However, with limited resources, the publishers see 3 things:

 

1. The PS4/One Launch will have a drought just large enough for early adopters with larger wallets to buy the software in the wings. 

 

2. The PS3/360 has a massive user base of fans that will buy those games. 

 

3. The Wii U will have a new 'monster' game each month to compete with, and those games will not really attract an install base that will either buy third party games en mass, or buy them on the Nintendo platform (if they are multi-platform owners). 

 

So, we know it will not be as simple as cutting/pasting from the dev kits, but, the PS/XBOX versions most likely have a much higher NPV that is more consistent with Ubisoft's required return. Tie this into their overall WACC and the reinvestment rates (MIRR),and this explains why they are placing their bets (and capital) on the other platforms. This is an extreme summary, but, as a consumer, I feel insulted. 

 

I will feel insulted as a PC consumer when the game takes a while to work properly as well, LOL. 

[3Dude]

No doubt. However, with limited resources, the publishers see 3 things:
 
1. The PS4/One Launch will have a drought just large enough for early adopters with larger wallets to buy the software in the wings. 
 
2. The PS3/360 has a massive user base of fans that will buy those games. 
 
3. The Wii U will have a new 'monster' game each month to compete with, and those games will not really attract an install base that will either buy third party games en mass, or buy them on the Nintendo platform (if they are multi-platform owners). 
 
So, we know it will not be as simple as cutting/pasting from the dev kits, but, the PS/XBOX versions most likely have a much higher NPV that is more consistent with Ubisoft's required return. Tie this into their overall WACC and the reinvestment rates (MIRR),and this explains why they are placing their bets (and capital) on the other platforms. This is an extreme summary, but, as a consumer, I feel insulted. 
 
I will feel insulted as a PC consumer when the game takes a while to work properly as well, LOL.

Damn good points.

[GAMER1984]

Damn good points.

Got a question for you 3dude. I've been doing a lot of research and I've watched every demo for all platforms from E3. With Bayonetta 2 and MK8 looking so good knowing they have 8 months at least to polish and make the games look even better. So my question is it possible all Nintendo released games for 2014 are native 1080p 30 or 60fps.... Is it possible on what we know from Wii U hardware? Smash U is confirmed 1080p 60fps already. We know both Bayo2 and MK8 are already running at 60fps.... So is it possible Nintendo shocks the world and have all their 1st party games running at 1080p. I've heard people on Neogaf say things like No way MK8 can pull off 1080p at the visual shown at E3. So is it possible? Man it's going to be so funny if they can pull this off I guess naysayers will have to come up with something else than Wii U is just a native 720p console.

Edited by GAMER1984, 25 July 2013 - 07:35 AM.

[3Dude]

Got a question for you 3dude. I've been doing a lot of research and I've watched every demo for all platforms from E3. With Bayonetta 2 and MK8 looking so good knowing they have 8 months at least to polish and make the games look even better. So my question is it possible all Nintendo released games for 2014 are native 1080p 30 or 60fps.... Is it possible on what we know from Wii U hardware? Smash U is confirmed 1080p 60fps already. We know both Bayo2 and MK8 are already running at 60fps.... So is it possible Nintendo shocks the world and have all their 1st party games running at 1080p. I've heard people on Neogaf say things like No way MK8 can pull off 1080p at the visual shown at E3. So is it possible? Man it's going to be so funny if they can pull this off I guess naysayers will have to come up with something else than Wii U is just a native 720p console.

Possible? Its within the realm of possibility. More important than possible is whether or not nintendo considers it a priority, and if so, what does nintendo prioritize higher.

Does native 1080p look so much better to nintendo than 720p upscaled to 1080 that it makes it worth the time and effort? Does it look so much better that resources freed via optimization is better spent on native 1080p rather than improving or adding models, or textures or effects?

I dont feel Nintendo thinks native 1080p is a big enough leap over upscaled 720p when sitting on a couch 6 or more feet away from the display, While I believe Nintendo feels extra effects, models textures etc, would be noticable and improve the experience from that far.

While I believe its possible, I dont see Nintendo considering it a priority.

Shin'en on the other hand, their next game (fast racing league 2 i bet) will very likely be 1080p and quite stunning. For them, who are also the pc demo group Abyss, those kinds of things can be priorities.

[GAMER1984]

Possible? Its within the realm of possibility. More important than possible is whether or not nintendo considers it a priority, and if so, what does nintendo prioritize higher.Does native 1080p look so much better to nintendo than 720p upscaled to 1080 that it makes it worth the time and effort? Does it look so much better that resources freed via optimization is better spent on native 1080p rather than improving or adding models, or textures or effects?I dont feel Nintendo thinks native 1080p is a big enough leap over upscaled 720p when sitting on a couch 6 or more feet away from the display, While I believe Nintendo feels extra effects, models textures etc, would be noticable and improve the experience from that far.While I believe its possible, I dont see Nintendo considering it a priority.Shin'en on the other hand, their next game (fast racing league 2 i bet) will very likely be 1080p and quite stunning. For them, who are also the pc demo group Abyss, those kinds of things can be priorities.

We will see I guess.

[TheUltimateWaddleDee]

Possible? Its within the realm of possibility. More important than possible is whether or not nintendo considers it a priority, and if so, what does nintendo prioritize higher.

Does native 1080p look so much better to nintendo than 720p upscaled to 1080 that it makes it worth the time and effort? Does it look so much better that resources freed via optimization is better spent on native 1080p rather than improving or adding models, or textures or effects?

I dont feel Nintendo thinks native 1080p is a big enough leap over upscaled 720p when sitting on a couch 6 or more feet away from the display, While I believe Nintendo feels extra effects, models textures etc, would be noticable and improve the experience from that far.

While I believe its possible, I dont see Nintendo considering it a priority.

Shin'en on the other hand, their next game (fast racing league 2 i bet) will very likely be 1080p and quite stunning. For them, who are also the pc demo group Abyss, those kinds of things can be priorities.

I think it was confirmed that all of their E3 titles were native 1080p.

[GAMER1984]

I think it was confirmed that all of their E3 titles were native 1080p.

From my understanding just a rumor and fanboy dream. Only smash is supposedly 1080p

[Arkhandar]

the gpu we dont know much about?

What in the GPU we don't know much about could possibly create games beyond the 350 GFLOPS barrier?

[3Dude]

What in the GPU we don't know much about could possibly create games beyond the 350 GFLOPS barrier?

The gigantic ram banks for the shader units and other logic units would suggest the wii u gpu could get a lot more per flop than conventional architectures. All that ram around those logic units would sure give those flops a lot of bandwidth. There are many things that would get done much faster using double precision.....

The amount of work that can be done per flop isnt the same between all architectures and well.... between flops.

More flops= always more power is a common myth, like the mhz myth, that is currently being exploited heavily in marketing.

For instance, ps3's Cell 'theoretically' gets 240 gflops. Or is it 100? Well, Actually, its both. Cell gets 240 single precision gflops, but 'only' 100 double precision gflops (one of the main bottlenecks of dp is local ram bandwidth). Guess which one of those gets more per flop?

Thats why you see a lot of marketing around high gflops... But then sometimes realworld performance is lacking, and you find out the benchmark only used a small single precision loop that made the architecture look really good in a benchmark... But isnt indictive of real world performance.

Flops per cycle is only a small peice of a puzzle.

[Nintyfan86]

The gigantic ram banks for the shader units and other logic units would suggest the wii u gpu could get a lot more per flop than conventional architectures. All that ram around those logic units would sure give those flops a lot of bandwidth. There are many things that would get done much faster using double precision.....

The amount of work that can be done per flop isnt the same between all architectures and well.... between flops.

More flops= always more power is a common myth, like the mhz myth, that is currently being exploited heavily in marketing.

For instance, ps3's Cell 'theoretically' gets 240 gflops. Or is it 100? Well, Actually, its both. Cell gets 240 single precision gflops, but 'only' 100 double precision gflops (one of the main bottlenecks of dp is local ram bandwidth). Guess which one of those gets more per flop?

Thats why you see a lot of marketing around high gflops... But then sometimes realworld performance is lacking, and you find out the benchmark only used a small single precision loop that made the architecture look really good in a benchmark... But isnt indictive of real world performance.

Flops per cycle is only a small peice of a puzzle.

I have a question for you involving https://twitter.com/...277106856370176 . 

 

I am seeing a lot of, "Sony's first party games will be amazing", and so forth, but, the idea of cross porting to the XBone, Wii U, and PC would become an interesting gambit, presuming the PC becomes the lead platform again with the next gen architecture taken into account. 

 

Do you think this will still hold true? Are we looking at a PS4 that could replicate an 8350 with a gpu within throwing distance of a 7970 at this point (3.68 vs 3.8 Tflops)? This would also double the Wii U's on paper specs obviously, while keeping all of the consoles in the same ball park. I know Tflops are a small factor in comparing GPU's, but, they are presumably from the same series.

 

Am I completely misunderstanding this?  

[3Dude]

I have a question for you involving https://twitter.com/...277106856370176 . 
 
I am seeing a lot of, "Sony's first party games will be amazing", and so forth, but, the idea of cross porting to the XBone, Wii U, and PC would become an interesting gambit, presuming the PC becomes the lead platform again with the next gen architecture taken into account. 
 
Do you think this will still hold true? Are we looking at a PS4 that could replicate an 8350 with a gpu within throwing distance of a 7970 at this point (3.68 vs 3.8 Tflops)? This would also double the Wii U's on paper specs obviously, while keeping all of the consoles in the same ball park. I know Tflops are a small factor in comparing GPU's, but, they are presumably from the same series.
 
Am I completely misunderstanding this?

Its true. Optimizations go a very long ways, and its something that really cant be done as well on pc because everybodies is different, but the game has to run on as many pc's as possible, from uber powerful to weaksauce.

But, I wouldnt expect many devs to focus on making a game that uses 3+tflops as mandatory... For the reasons i stated above. PC games need to play on as many pc's as possible. Its why they are built around a minimim specs system.

[Arkhandar]

The gigantic ram banks for the shader units and other logic units would suggest the wii u gpu could get a lot more per flop than conventional architectures. All that ram around those logic units would sure give those flops a lot of bandwidth. There are many things that would get done much faster using double precision.....

The amount of work that can be done per flop isnt the same between all architectures and well.... between flops.

More flops= always more power is a common myth, like the mhz myth, that is currently being exploited heavily in marketing.

For instance, ps3's Cell 'theoretically' gets 240 gflops. Or is it 100? Well, Actually, its both. Cell gets 240 single precision gflops, but 'only' 100 double precision gflops (one of the main bottlenecks of dp is local ram bandwidth). Guess which one of those gets more per flop?

Thats why you see a lot of marketing around high gflops... But then sometimes realworld performance is lacking, and you find out the benchmark only used a small single precision loop that made the architecture look really good in a benchmark... But isnt indictive of real world performance.

Flops per cycle is only a small peice of a puzzle.

The Xbox One has a large pool of ram available for the shader units too, so you could argue that it too punches above its weight (1.2 TFLOPS which is a lot more than the Wii U).

[3Dude]

The Xbox One has a large pool of ram available for the shader units too, so you could argue that it too punches above its weight (1.2 TFLOPS which is a lot more than the Wii U).

Thats the 32Mb embedded pool of ram on the gpu. Completely different subject. I mean, its nice, but nothing out of the ordinary.

These are the actual memory banks attached to each individual shader unit. The ones on wii u gpu are abnormally large. About twice as big as they should be.

[Nintyfan86]

Its true. Optimizations go a very long ways, and its something that really cant be done as well on pc because everybodies is different, but the game has to run on as many pc's as possible, from uber powerful to weaksauce.

But, I wouldnt expect many devs to focus on making a game that uses 3+tflops as mandatory... For the reasons i stated above. PC games need to play on as many pc's as possible. Its why they are built around a minimim specs system.

What does not make sense though is that 'they' are claiming the consoles are targeting 30 fps/1080p. If their true 8 core Jag chips are 1.6 gig, and, in the PS4's case, the 'almost' 7950-7970 GPU with 100% optimization, I would guess it would be like having a 3.2 ghz  Piledriver chip, with 7ghz of unified memory for applications (1 for the OS). 

 

So, the minimum spec PC games would, theoretically, be able to run on high/very high for a very long long time considering the required resources to make these DX 11 titles, the 1080p lock, and the supposed 30fps cap (which does not make sense for all games). 

 

I am very confused on how the PC community is brushing the PS4 off as being so out dated, when, at 1080p, there is not much out there that it should not be able to max outside of a Windows environment. My suspicion is that it will take a while until these reach minimum specs at 1080p for the new consoles to become as outdated as they appear, yet I do not think we will see anywhere near the optimization we saw with the PS3/Xbox360 vs the PC. 

[3Dude]

What does not make sense though is that 'they' are claiming the consoles are targeting 30 fps/1080p. If their true 8 core Jag chips are 1.6 gig, and, in the PS4's case, the 'almost' 7950-7970 GPU with 100% optimization, I would guess it would be like having a 3.2 ghz  Piledriver chip, with 7ghz of unified memory for applications (1 for the OS). 
 
So, the minimum spec PC games would, theoretically, be able to run on high/very high for a very long long time considering the required resources to make these DX 11 titles, the 1080p lock, and the supposed 30fps cap (which does not make sense for all games). 
 
I am very confused on how the PC community is brushing the PS4 off as being so out dated, when, at 1080p, there is not much out there that it should not be able to max outside of a Windows environment. My suspicion is that it will take a while until these reach minimum specs at 1080p for the new consoles to become as outdated as they appear, yet I do not think we will see anywhere near the optimization we saw with the PS3/Xbox360 vs the PC.

Dont dwell to much on what 'they' say. Time will tell.

That being said, google 'Amdahls law'. More cores can only get you so far, you still need powerful single cores and thread performance for many operations important to what videogames do.

[NintendoReport]

The GPU still sucks though.

 

Most asinine comment I've read on these forums in a while.

[Goodtwin]

The gigantic ram banks for the shader units and other logic units would suggest the wii u gpu could get a lot more per flop than conventional architectures. All that ram around those logic units would sure give those flops a lot of bandwidth. There are many things that would get done much faster using double precision.....

The amount of work that can be done per flop isnt the same between all architectures and well.... between flops.

More flops= always more power is a common myth, like the mhz myth, that is currently being exploited heavily in marketing.

For instance, ps3's Cell 'theoretically' gets 240 gflops. Or is it 100? Well, Actually, its both. Cell gets 240 single precision gflops, but 'only' 100 double precision gflops (one of the main bottlenecks of dp is local ram bandwidth). Guess which one of those gets more per flop?

Thats why you see a lot of marketing around high gflops... But then sometimes realworld performance is lacking, and you find out the benchmark only used a small single precision loop that made the architecture look really good in a benchmark... But isnt indictive of real world performance.

Flops per cycle is only a small peice of a puzzle.

 

 

FLOPS are really just the new polygons per second spec that doesnt really speak for the real world game performance.  Polygons per second were all the rage back in the GC/PS2 days, but its hardly talked about now.  Its impossible to define performance of a console based on any single spec.  Flops doesnt tell the whole story, GHz doesnt tell the whole story, and polygons per second doesnt tell the whole story.  Its how all the components come together that matters.  If there is a bottleneck in the pipeline, then that is going to limit performance.  Shin'en has come out and said that the components match up very nicely.  You dont have a GPU starved by memory bandwidth, and to the same degree you dont have lots of excess memory bandwidth that the GPU could never take advantage of.  We have talked about the CPU in a similar manner, some people want to point out that the Wii U CPU sucks at flops, but the reality is that the flops performance of a CPU is hardly the defining factor for CPU performance.  In the Wii U, the GPU, CPU, and memory hierarchy all perform very well when doing the job they were intended to do.  Dont feed the CPU floating point instructions, and dont bog down the GPU trying to run physics there.  In some ways the Wii U is setup in the tried and true way of programming.  Eventually developers may be running just about everything on the GPU, but with the Wii U, that is a waste of performance.