49 replies to this topic

[3Dude]

It's basically a PC inside a PS4/Xbox One, they already know how to use the power of those systems, again, optimizing should be a default thing, not worth discussing, should be a set thing that every developer does to avoid stuff like using all ram. THIS SHOULDN'T BE A THING! That's what I'm trying to get at.

It should absolutely be a thing, unless you want all progress on making more powerful computers to stop.

Saying optimization should be a default thing unworthy of talking about is a very foolish and naive statement make.

Without pioneering tech companies like crytek creating inventive new ways to 'waste' those resources, wed have much less for people to approximate and optimize into a practical form for consoles.

[Chrop]

It should absolutely be a thing, unless you want all progress on making more powerful computers to stop.

Saying optimization should be a default thing unworthy of talking about is a very foolish and naive statement make.

Without pioneering tech companies like crytek creating inventive new ways to 'waste' those resources, wed have much less for people to approximate and optimize into a practical form for consoles.

You make it sound like we can't get new hardware unless we don't optimize

The PS4/Xbox one has been out for only a few months now and they're already capping out it's hardware because they're not optimizing

You can argue if you want, but remember windows Vista? back around those times Ram was getting cheaper and people thought instead of optimizing, they can just add more ram, things went horribly wrong, and the biggest failure to come out of it all was Windows Vista. 

 

I'm going into extreme arguments here, but I hope you get my point, These consoles need to last 6+ years, the fact they're having a hard time with it now is a bad sign. All they needed to do is optimize and it wouldn't be a problem

[3Dude]

Chrop, on 19 May 2014 - 6:06 PM, said:
You make it sound like we can't get new hardware unless we don't optimize
The PS4/Xbox one has been out for only a few months now and they're already capping out it's hardware because they're not optimizing
You can argue if you want, but remember windows Vista? back around those times Ram was getting cheaper and people thought instead of optimizing, they can just add more ram, things went horribly wrong, and the biggest failure to come out of it all was Windows Vista.

I'm going into extreme arguments here, but I hope you get my point, These consoles need to last 6+ years, the fact they're having a hard time with it now is a bad sign. All they needed to do is optimize and it wouldn't be a problem

Have you ever been through a gen change before? Even though the power leap was pretty small, this is pretty par for the course. Especially concerning memory.

Im trying to make you realize you are constantly getting stuck in thinking traps like 'always always always' and 'everything everything everything'.


Just because one company is focused on taking the next step, venturing into the unknown doesnt mean EVERYBODY needs to be doing the same ALL the time, and the same applies for the optimization side, if everyone is optimizing things that already exist, nothing new is being created. That would be really stupid and result in a complete lack of progress.

The companies/people who can push both simultaneously are extremely rare and exceptionally talented, and your belittling of what it takes for them to do what they do, how its something that is so commonplace and simple it shouldnt even be talked about is an insult and a slap to the face of them and what they do.

[Chrop]

Just because one company is focused on taking the next step, venturing into the unknown doesnt mean EVERYBODY needs to be doing the same ALL the time, and the same applies for the optimization side, if everyone is optimizing things that already exist, nothing new is being created. That would be really stupid and result in a complete lack of progress.

What?!? What are you talking about?!? How does optimizing things not make new things get created?!? You can't run 3D world on a N64, so obviously new systems need to be created once the system has hit it's limit on what it can do, but  were a few months into the ps4/xbox one and they're already begging for more ram... They need to optimize from the start, simple as.

Edited by Chrop, 19 May 2014 - 04:10 PM.

[3Dude]

Chrop, on 19 May 2014 - 7:35 PM, said:
Chrop, on 19 May 2014 - 7:35 PM, said:
What?!? What are you talking about?!? How does optimizing things not make new things get created?!? You can't run 3D world on a N64, so obviously new systems need to be created once the system has hit it's limit on what it can do, but were a few months into the ps4/xbox one and they're already begging for more ram... They need to optimize from the start, simple as.

Because in your idiotic fantasy world YOU WONT LET ANYONE MAKE ANYTHING NEW because EVERY DAMN BODY has to 'optimize' and nobody can pioneer new technology that pushes past limits, because that makes them 'stupid and wrong because they dont know they should just optimize its as simple as that', The only thought that ever comes out of your head, the only POSSIBLE two options that can exist in your little world, is either black or white. EVERYTHING EVERYTHING EVERYTHING. NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING. God forbid you let a tech company do its job and create new technology, and then let another group find a way to approximate that technology so its practical on consoles.

And where are they begging for more ram? Who is the mysteriously omniscient generalized strawman 'they'? Why the F$#% are YOU telling people how 'simple' 'optimizations' are?


As was very, very clearly stated in very straightforward sentences in basic wording, they were talking about the years to come. Personally, I thought the statement was unnecessarily redundent as it was common sense and painfully obvious.

'I would have to agree with the viewpoint that 8 gigs can easily be filled up, but also keep in mind that developers don’t necessarily even have access to all 8 gigs of it. For example the Xbox One retains some of the RAM for OS purposes. Since technology, as Ray Kurweil states, progresses exponentially, we will soon find that the computational requirements of games will quickly hit the ceiling of a few gigs of ram... Thiis will be one of the limiting factors surely in this generation.'

Its one of the limiting factors of EVERY generation that ever existed. Frankly, I was wondering why he spent so much time blatantly over explaining something so stupidly obvious as if we needed it broken down Barney style.

Then you showed me why. Because he knows there is a sea of you out there. Obnoxious, ignorant, arrogant. Wont shut the hell up long enough to listen and find out your obnoxiously repeated questions and complaints are being answered and debunked repeatedly, everything goes in one ear and then falls out of your perpetually incessently complaining maw before it ever makes it to your brain.

[Raiden]

Then how come every time all these western PC devs go crying they need more. We get the same old crud just shinier paint.

Meanwhile we get stuff like Xenoblade on the very limited Wii. Tech plays a large part sure but not nearly as much as some cry about. They rarely use it to their true advantage. Just wait til something with more specs comes along praise it slaps something shiny on it we seen before then start to complain again they need more.

 

Why I respect Nintendo's vision more in hardware. They utilize all they can til they can't. Nintendo will then bring something more powerful out but an added feature that can push ideas further.

[3Dude]

Then how come every time all these western PC devs go crying they need more. We get the same old crud just shinier paint.
Meanwhile we get stuff like Xenoblade on the very limited Wii. Tech plays a large part sure but not nearly as much as some cry about. They rarely use it to their true advantage. Just wait til something with more specs comes along praise it slaps something shiny on it we seen before then start to complain again they need more.
 
Why I respect Nintendo's vision more in hardware. They utilize all they can til they can't. Nintendo will then bring something more powerful out but an added feature that can push ideas further.

probably because you are making massive generalizations and just formed a strawman instead of engaging the actual topic? Probably because game design and real time graphics rendering technology are actually completely different subjects that dont always coincide, and this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do at all with game design, which is the subject you are erroneously talking about instead? Probably because you are confusing independent developers with publishers/owned by publishers who control what they are allowed to say to push a narrative suited to a business model?

And who are these convenient unnamed 'pc devs' who are constantly crying all over the place?

They sure as hell arent found in this article.

[Raiden]

There was so many early last gen mid last gen and late last gen. Late last gen frustration was reasonable. 8 years is a long time. Thing is crytek is not interested in advancing gaming just their silly engine. They cannot make a game worth a damn tho. Ryse with it's 3 enemy variations like PS1 era woooow amaaaazing so next gen man! whew! Next time we may have 4! Jimmie cricket! Crysis 3 oh jolly crackers game of the how does Zinix put it..FOREVER! Before this gen they already were being snide when Crysis 3 will could never be truly be envisioned on next gen consoles and never look at good. Oh no whatever shall we do. Even tho he is no longer at Epic Clifford the big red asswipe who thinks while at Epic was indie owning his two yes two Ferrari's defender of greed (with a great big green G on his spandex tights) constantly Daisyed about consoles not being enough. Since I read so many articles a day I do not remember all of them but know there were others and they just made FPS really. I want to say EA and Activision but can't be 100% sure it was them. So crytek can make scaleable engines ok that's great and all but they need to stop making games at all.

 

Epic is funny because they were not limited when you take Gears of War for example. First game had some good AI for the time but they on purpose made the AI not good next few games. They held themselves back. Crytek is not advancing thier game sno matter what amount of ram or whatever when they just get lazy with writing and AI and enemy types.

 

Many PC devs and talking usually big names and used 2 examples in this case only want more wizits to add more shiny not actually make the games themselves better. Why I would put Shin'en against them any day when utilizing what's in front of them. They are the true wizards of Germany for gaming.

Edited by Ryudo, 19 May 2014 - 11:12 PM.

[Mewbot]

Ok guise, calm down.

 

RAM = Good

Optimisation = Just as good, but hard doe

 

Devs aren't lazy, Crytek is just saying that chances are 8 gig will be too small in the future. PC's will keep getting more and more power, but the consoles are gonna be stuck with 8 gig. Then they'll need to optimise more, just like last gen with the PS360. The best games came at the end because the devs were forced to optimise.

[Scumbag]

8gb is still a lot with Sony/MS likely to give devs a little more in the future too.

 

Mid range PC cards have around 2-3Gb gddr5 on top of the ddr3 so devs haven't showcased what PS4 can do with more than that.

[Chrop]

Because in your idiotic fantasy world YOU WONT LET ANYONE MAKE ANYTHING NEW because EVERY DAMN BODY has to 'optimize' and nobody can pioneer new technology that pushes past limits, because that makes them 'stupid and wrong because they dont know they should just optimize its as simple as that', The only thought that ever comes out of your head, the only POSSIBLE two options that can exist in your little world, is either black or white. EVERYTHING EVERYTHING EVERYTHING. NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING. God forbid you let a tech company do its job and create new technology, and then let another group find a way to approximate that technology so its practical on consoles.

And where are they begging for more ram? Who is the mysteriously omniscient generalized strawman 'they'? Why the F$#% are YOU telling people how 'simple' 'optimizations' are?


As was very, very clearly stated in very straightforward sentences in basic wording, they were talking about the years to come. Personally, I thought the statement was unnecessarily redundent as it was common sense and painfully obvious.

'I would have to agree with the viewpoint that 8 gigs can easily be filled up, but also keep in mind that developers don’t necessarily even have access to all 8 gigs of it. For example the Xbox One retains some of the RAM for OS purposes. Since technology, as Ray Kurweil states, progresses exponentially, we will soon find that the computational requirements of games will quickly hit the ceiling of a few gigs of ram... Thiis will be one of the limiting factors surely in this generation.'

Its one of the limiting factors of EVERY generation that ever existed. Frankly, I was wondering why he spent so much time blatantly over explaining something so stupidly obvious as if we needed it broken down Barney style.

Then you showed me why. Because he knows there is a sea of you out there. Obnoxious, ignorant, arrogant. Wont shut the hell up long enough to listen and find out your obnoxiously repeated questions and complaints are being answered and debunked repeatedly, everything goes in one ear and then falls out of your perpetually incessently complaining maw before it ever makes it to your brain.

 

Someone's getting angry over nothing :s

Look at the PS3, at the start we got shiny PS2 games, some of these games even lagged, in the end we got The Last of US, Optimizing helped with that, helped A TON with that. Optimizing get's things done, you didn't see people complain about the lack of ram in that console. Because ram isn't the problem, it never was, it's a thing lazy developers are using as an excuse. How did the Last of Us get made without it needing anywhere near 6-7 GB?

Then at the end of the PS3 when they couldn't do anything better with it because they pushed it to it's limit, the PS4 came out to make more powerful games, 6 months later they're filling all 6-7GB of ram... How are you not seeing the problem here?!?

This is my point, you're saying my questions already have answers, the only reason they already have answers is because the guy in the artical STATED THE OBVIOUS. 

Also I'm not saying optimizing is simple, i'm saying that it should be simple to know that optimizing is a thing they should be doing already

 

Your replys haven't made any progress, you're just telling me "New things can't be created" Yet won't give me any evidence to support the claim, I've give you Windows Vista and the jump from PS2-PS3 as examples.

 

Seriously you're a mod and you're swearing at me and insulting me for a simple argument like this, this goes against 2 rules 

Always be respectful of others and their opinions.

No swearing

Edited by Chrop, 20 May 2014 - 03:29 AM.

[3Dude]

There was so many early last gen mid last gen and late last gen. Late last gen frustration was reasonable. 8 years is a long time. Thing is crytek is not interested in advancing gaming just their silly engine. They cannot make a game worth a damn tho. Ryse with it's 3 enemy variations like PS1 era woooow amaaaazing so next gen man! whew! Next time we may have 4! Jimmie cricket! Crysis 3 oh jolly crackers game of the how does Zinix put it..FOREVER! Before this gen they already were being snide when Crysis 3 will could never be truly be envisioned on next gen consoles and never look at good. Oh no whatever shall we do. Even tho he is no longer at Epic Clifford the big red asswipe who thinks while at Epic was indie owning his two yes two Ferrari's defender of greed (with a great big green G on his spandex tights) constantly Daisyed about consoles not being enough. Since I read so many articles a day I do not remember all of them but know there were others and they just made FPS really. I want to say EA and Activision but can't be 100% sure it was them. So crytek can make scaleable engines ok that's great and all but they need to stop making games at all.

Epic is funny because they were not limited when you take Gears of War for example. First game had some good AI for the time but they on purpose made the AI not good next few games. They held themselves back. Crytek is not advancing thier game sno matter what amount of ram or whatever when they just get lazy with writing and AI and enemy types.

Many PC devs and talking usually big names and used 2 examples in this case only want more wizits to add more shiny not actually make the games themselves better. Why I would put Shin'en against them any day when utilizing what's in front of them. They are the true wizards of Germany for gaming.

Of course crytek is only interested in advancing their engine. They arent ACTUALLY a games company, they are a middleware game engine company. You know the whole point ive been making this whole time about not grouping EVERYTHING EVERYTHING EVERYTHING together ALWAY ALWAYS ALWAYS?

Hell, every single company you brought up is a pc middleware games engine company. They are 100% correct,spot on the money that the amount of ram in the consoles this gen wont be nearly enough for what they are going to be doing on PC in the upcoming years.

None of them should even be screwing around with consoles anyway. But they dont have a choice anymore, because they arent in charge of what they do, because they arent majority holders of the companies they created anymore.

Garbage full of logical fallacies and grevious misrepresentations of reality

Your problems stem from the fact you have no idea whatsoever at all what the buzzword you are slinging around actually means or what it entails, which is why you are moronically goin 'hurr hurr just telling me things but no explain why'.

If you remotely knew what the hell you were arguing about, you would KNOW WHY, upon reading any one of my multiple responses to your half baked nonsense, and you would also realize everything that comes out of your mouth is a disgusting belittling insult to everyone who actually DOES the things you are trying to express.

[Chrop]

Your problems stem from the fact you have no idea whatsoever at all what the buzzword you are slinging around actually means or what it entails, which is why you are moronically goin 'hurr hurr just telling me things but no explain why'.

If you remotely knew what the hell you were arguing about, you would KNOW WHY, upon reading any one of my multiple responses to your half baked nonsense, and you would also realize everything that comes out of your mouth is a disgusting belittling insult to everyone who actually DOES the things you are trying to express.

Well done, you just completely ignored everything I said and insult me in the process. Great argument! You've definitely outdone yourself this time! I have no counter-argument to this, you win! Now take your imaginary medal and celebrate!

[3Dude]

Well done, you just completely ignored everything I said and insult me in the process. Great argument! You've definitely outdone yourself this time! I have no counter-argument to this, you win! Now take your imaginary medal and celebrate!

You dont like the things you say being ignored? Really? Wow, you sure threw out the wrong vibes by consistantly ignoring everything I have been telling you over and over and over again. I thought you like ignoring.

You want me to adress what you have done? You brought up a FIRST PARTY STUDIO not complaining about hardware MADE BY THE COMPANY WHO EMPLOYS THEM, who is currently FIRING ITS STAFF LIKE CHRIS FARLEY DOWNING CORN DOGS, and bring up a game based on OVER SEVEN YEARS OF EXPERIENCE ON A SINGLE HARDWARE PLATFORM, and insult them, everything they have done and that seven years they spent doing it by saying 'lololol its so simple just optimize hurr!'

You want to talk about respect? How about the definition of respect? Yeah Im going to copy and paste here for you, because if there is one thing you have demonstrated, its that you will absolutely not, under any circumstances, for any reason ever, EVER put forth the microcosm of effort required to look something up.

Respect: a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.
 
Lets review what qualities, abilities and acheivements you have demonstrated  here.
 
1. Emotionally vested arguments based entirely on thinking traps with no basis in logic whatsoever.
2. Constantly insulting the people and acheivements of the things you think you are promoting/defending.
3. Constantly sling around a word that you are using as the crux of your argument which you know absolutely nothing about, nor remotely what it entails, as a catch all.
4. Demonstrated a complete and absolute inability to bother trying to educate yourself on the very word you are constantly using.
 
The responses you recieve are earned not given. If I didnt respect what I know you are capable of (which is NOT this unthinking garbage) I wouldnt bother to take the time to reapetedlycram a nugget of knowledge past all your emotional based reactionary defense mechanisms into your brain so you can wake up and start thinking straight, whilst all the while you keep spewing the same nonsense over and over and over again without even THINKING about the information sent your way.
 
But even my patience and tenacity have its limits. If you are so lazy, complacant, and entrenched in living in your fantasy world, that you wont even bother to attempt to look up the very thing you are arguing about and get some perspective on it. Then yeah, eventually Im going to dismiss you as a lost cause on this particular subject.

But let me leave you with a word of advice from an absolutely brilliant man whose time left among us is not long for this world, on the subject of program optimization and how simple and obvious it is:

"The First Rule of Program Optimization: Don't do it. The Second Rule of Program Optimization (for experts only!): Don't do it yet." — Michael A. Jackson

[Bort]

You two are arguing entirely different subjects. Chrop is talking about how devs should optimize software to use less power instead of just leaving their code unoptimized and blaming the hardware, while 3Dude is saying that pioneering new, unoptimized, 'wasteful' software is just as important a step towards better looking games as later optimizing said software is.

 

 

Both of you are correct here.

 

 

At least, you WERE talking about this, somehow you managed to get on respect.

 

...a little weird that this is my first post after lurking around this site for about 2 years, but whatever.

Edited by Bort, 20 May 2014 - 12:22 PM.

[KeptMyWiiUAndLeftTheForums]

You two are arguing entirely different subjects. Chrop is talking about how devs should optimize software to use less power instead of just leaving their code unoptimized and blaming the hardware, while 3Dude is saying that pioneering new, unoptimized, 'wasteful' software is just as important a step towards better looking games as later optimizing said software is.

 

 

Both of you are correct here.

 

 

At least, you WERE talking about this, somehow you managed to get on respect.

 

...a little weird that this is my first post after lurking around this site for about 2 years, but whatever.

I don't think you could ask for a more perfect welcome, stalker

[Auzzie Wingman]

No, you weren't supposed to reveal yourself. What are you doing?

[Bort]

I don't think you could ask for a more perfect welcome, stalker

Lol, thanks.

 

No, you weren't supposed to reveal yourself. What are you doing?

starting my plan for world domination Giving you all a false sense of security by causing you to think that I have nothing to hide.

 

I'll make an introduction thread before I derail this any further.

Edited by Bort, 20 May 2014 - 05:48 PM.

[3Dude]

You two are arguing entirely different subjects. Chrop is talking about how devs should optimize software to use less power instead of just leaving their code unoptimized and blaming the hardware, while 3Dude is saying that pioneering new, unoptimized, 'wasteful' software is just as important a step towards better looking games as later optimizing said software is.
 

 
Both of you are correct here.

 
 
At least, you WERE talking about this, somehow you managed to get on respect.
 
...a little weird that this is my first post after lurking around this site for about 2 years, but whatever.

Close, but no cigar.

I am saying both are necessary, and without one or the other progress in general would come to a screeching halt, and individuals capable of doing both, in a time practical manner, are both exceedingly rare and exceptionally talented, which is why most companies tend to stick to one or the other at a time.

Its part of a general process. Mathmematical/computational theory often invents routines and effects decades before they can ever hope to be realized by available technology (phong invented normal mapping in the 70's) High end render machines eventually make it work in a non runtime environment (think cg ads, commercials, movies, pixar) Demo groups create demo reels using optimized/approximated effects in runtime, but not in a way thats really practical for use in real time games. Game engine companies find the right time/way to make effects, or optimized modified versions an option to feasibly be used in pc games. Console developers find the right time to run approximated/optimized versions on the closed console systems.

This process takes years upon years of constant work to make it through a cycle.

The pc engine companies are stating the very obvious facts that the underpowered generation of consoles, mixed with the fact controlling shareholders are forcing them to pander to said underpowered machines, is going to slow this process considerably.

Chrop is saying EVERYONE needs to be 'optimizing' ALL THE TIME, not doing ANYTHING ELSE, and anyone who doesnt is stupid and wrong and cant figure out its just as simple as that. Completely slapping the face of every engineer who spends six seven, eight years slowly weeding out bottle necks, fixing problems that arise from the problems they fixed, that then gave rise to other unforseen problems that need to be fixed... that will give rise to even MORE problems (true program optimization as actually virtually impossible)

Because they havent 'optimized' all the things that havent been created yet in the first six months of the systems life why are they so stupid dont they know they just need to optimize its just as simple as that.

[Bort]

Close, but no cigar.

I am saying both are necessary, and without one or the other progress in general would come to a screeching halt, and individuals capable of doing both, in a time practical manner, are both exceedingly rare and exceptionally talented, which is why most companies tend to stick to one or the other at a time.

Its part of a general process. Mathmematical/computational theory often invents routines and effects decades before they can ever hope to be realized by available technology (phong invented normal mapping in the 70's) High end render machines eventually make it work in a non runtime environment (think cg ads, commercials, movies, pixar) Demo groups create demo reels using optimized/approximated effects in runtime, but not in a way thats really practical for use in real time games. Game engine companies find the right time/way to make effects, or optimized modified versions an option to feasibly be used in pc games. Console developers find the right time to run approximated/optimized versions on the closed console systems.

This process takes years upon years of constant work to make it through a cycle.

The pc engine companies are stating the very obvious facts that the underpowered generation of consoles, mixed with the fact controlling shareholders are forcing them to pander to said underpowered machines, is going to slow this process considerably.

Chrop is saying EVERYONE needs to be 'optimizing' ALL THE TIME, not doing ANYTHING ELSE, and anyone who doesnt is stupid and wrong and cant figure out its just as simple as that. Completely slapping the face of every engineer who spends six seven, eight years slowly weeding out bottle necks, fixing problems that arise from the problems they fixed, that then gave rise to other unforseen problems that need to be fixed... that will give rise to even MORE problems (true program optimization as actually virtually impossible)

Because they havent 'optimized' all the things that havent been created yet in the first six months of the systems life why are they so stupid dont they know they just need to optimize its just as simple as that.

Huh. Didn't realize how arrogant Chrop was about how easily/quickly optimization can be done. Also didn't see how much he doesn't understand the whole process.

 

@Chrop: I'll use your own examples to show you what you're not seeing here:

 

the PS4 came out to make more powerful games, 6 months later they're filling all 6-7GB of ram... How are you not seeing the problem here?!?

 

The same thing happened last gen. How do we know this?

 

Look at the PS3, at the start we got shiny PS2 games, some of these games even lagged

 

I'm putting this much more simply than how it actually works to save time, but the point is the same: Those games lagged because the PS3 ran out of resources. They were capping the hardware already. Same as we have right now.

 

But what about The Last of Us? You said it yourself:

 

in the end we got The Last of US, Optimizing helped with that, helped A TON with that.

 

We got it after the PS3 was out for 6.5 years. All that optimization magically happen exclusively during TLOU's developent period; they used libraries and techniques that had gradually been perfected and optimized for the PS3 since 2006.

 

My point here is, optimization starts the moment the first dev kit comes out, and continues until the next console is released, where the cycle begins anew. Yes, they're going to be capping out the consoles' resources early on; if they had resources to spare, why would they need to optimize in the first place?

 

EDIT: Forgot to add, we're still in the first stages of those new consoles, and if we look at last gen, what did we have at the start?

 

Look at the PS3, at the start we got shiny PS2 games, some of these games even lagged,

 

Unoptimized, visually unimpressive, laggy games. So give it time. Optimization will happen.

Edited by Bort, 20 May 2014 - 06:58 PM.