49 replies to this topic

[Chrop]

Huh. Didn't realize how arrogant Chrop was about how easily/quickly optimization can be done. Also didn't see how much he doesn't understand the whole process.
 
@Chrop: I'll use your own examples to show you what you're not seeing here:
 

 
The same thing happened last gen. How do we know this?
 



 
I'm putting this much more simply than how it actually works to save time, but the point is the same: Those games lagged because the PS3 ran out of resources. They were capping the hardware already. Same as we have right now.
 
But what about The Last of Us? You said it yourself:
 



 
We got it after the PS3 was out for 6.5 years. All that optimization magically happen exclusively during TLOU's developent period; they used libraries and techniques that had gradually been perfected and optimized for the PS3 since 2006.
 
My point here is, optimization starts the moment the first dev kit comes out, and continues until the next console is released, where the cycle begins anew. Yes, they're going to be capping out the consoles' resources early on; if they had resources to spare, why would they need to optimize in the first place?
 
EDIT: Forgot to add, we're still in the first stages of those new consoles, and if we look at last gen, what did we have at the start?
 



 
Unoptimized, visually unimpressive, laggy games. So give it time. Optimization will happen.

I know, but the reason it took so long for them to utilise the ps3's power was because it was on a never seen before architecture so no one knew how to develop for it, thus it took a long time to figure it out, but these PS4's are simply PC, devs already know how to make games run efficient on these. They don't need to go though all the working out that they did with the PS3

[3Dude]

I know, but the reason it took so long for them to utilise the ps3's power was because it was on a never seen before architecture so no one knew how to develop for it, thus it took a long time to figure it out, but these PS4's are simply PC, devs already know how to make games run efficient on these. They don't need to go though all the working out that they did with the PS3

This is fundamentally flawed on so many levels.

So you are saying that all pc's use the same hardware? THat an i7 is the same exact thing as an i5, which is the same thing as a g5, which must be the same thing as a g3, and all of those are the same thing as the jaguar used in ps4/xbox... ANd thats not even getting into the gpu's... PC software is impossible to optimize because practically every person can potentially have a completely different system and the game must be able to run on all of them. This is what I was talking about when I said you fundamentally do not understand what optimization is. You cant optimize software for open systems, you have to make the software flexible and scalable, which is the exact opposite of what optimizing does.

Since talking about assuredly proprietary partitioning systems kernels, dll files, api's etc will assuredly be meaningless, I will simply leave you with a query that will lead you to discover better yourself one of the many reasons why this is so far off the mark.

The original xbox was literally off the shelf commercial pc hardware. Why did launch games then not look like say, doom 3 aand riddick?

And more importantly, why is there still no truly functioning xbox emulator? It was just pc parts! It must work just like a pc!!! Whats the hold up? What indeed.

[Chrop]

This is fundamentally flawed on so many levels.

So you are saying that all pc's use the same hardware? THat an i7 is the same exact thing as an i5, which is the same thing as a g5, which must be the same thing as a g3, and all of those are the same thing as the jaguar used in ps4/xbox... ANd thats not even getting into the gpu's... PC software is impossible to optimize because practically every person can potentially have a completely different system and the game must be able to run on all of them. This is what I was talking about when I said you fundamentally do not understand what optimization is. You cant optimize software for open systems, you have to make the software flexible and scalable, which is the exact opposite of what optimizing does.d.

This itself is flawed, yes PC is an open system, but the PS4 isn't, it's hardware isn't going anywhere, so the only people who should have any trouble with it is first party developers or developers who don't make games for PC, and even then they can get taught how to. 

 

The original xbox was literally off the shelf commercial pc hardware. Why did launch games then not look like say, doom 3 aand riddick?

And more importantly, why is there still no truly functioning xbox emulator? It was just pc parts! It must work just like a pc!!! Whats the hold up? What indeed.

Spoiler

I'd say Halo looks pretty good considering it came out 3 years before Doom 3.

 

Also an Xbox Emulator? We're not even on the same subject now! Creating an emulator is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THING then optimizing. 

[3Dude]

This itself is flawed, yes PC is an open system, but the PS4 isn't, it's hardware isn't going anywhere, so the only people who should have any trouble with it is first party developers or developers who don't make games for PC, and even then they can get taught how to. 
 

Spoiler

I'd say Halo looks pretty good considering it came out 3 years before Doom 3.
 
Also an Xbox Emulator? We're not even on the same subject now! Creating an emulator is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THING then optimizing.

YOU DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT 'OPTIMIZATION' IS.

WHY WONT YOU LEARN? Open up google, type something in and LEARN. Or am I seriously going to have to categorically dismantle every boneheaded leap you make to try and patch your swiss cheese argument?

WHy the HELL would pc developers, who work with icores and seperate gpu's, with gddr5 for the gpu seperate from ddr3 for the cpu, automatically have been working on jaguars embedded with integrated gpu's, as an apu? How the hell can you seriously SERIOUSLY still make the argument that 'All pc's are the same exact hardware'. How can you not realize How can you not see how mind numbingly stupid and completely outside the realm of reality that stance is? The jaguar apu the ps4 is using ISNT EVEN ON THE COMMERCIAL MARKET YET, and they are running into rather large problems trying to integrate the apu to work well with standard motherboards. Its almost as if NOT EVERY PEICE OF PC HARDWARE IS THE EXACT SAME THING OR SOMETHING.

PC developers dont optimize, because they have to work on hundreds upon hundreds of possible hardware combinations. They have to make sure their software can scale to work on them all, which is literally, THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF OPTIMIZATION. They are NOT a first party that focuses only on one closed system.


Did you just seriously, SERIOUSLY, post a screenshot of the Halo remake and try and pass it off as the original game? No guy. Holy crap. Like I seriously, SERIOUSLY needed anymore evidence that you are completely ignorant and arguing about crap you have no clue about whatsoever. LEEEEEEAAAAAARRRNNNNN. WHY WONT YOU LEARN!?

THIS is what halo on the xbox looked like:


Oh wait, what am I thinking, I should just post a picture of the 360/ps3 remake of chronicles of riddick!


Yeah, no one will be able to notice the difference!!! ITs not like the gigantic picture size because of the increased image resolution, massive increase in polygons, texture quality, and shaders will be noticable! Nope. 100% legit.

I shouldnt even need to say anything about this. But somehow I suspect you will completely miss the point of this.



ANd yes, emulation is a different subject, but the reason the Xbox doesnt have a functional emulator over a decade after, is because of THE SAME REASONS. Just because you are using off the shelf hardware, doesnt mean it has the same proprietary software/kernel/api's.

99.99% of all people who complain to cbxbx about why there is no functional emulator are using the same exact fallacious argument you are right now. 'But its just a pc, its just geforce 3, it should be exactly the same and really simple to do!'. 12 years later.....

[grahamf]

This is fundamentally flawed on so many levels.

So you are saying that all pc's use the same hardware? THat an i7 is the same exact thing as an i5, which is the same thing as a g5, which must be the same thing as a g3, and all of those are the same thing as the jaguar used in ps4/xbox...

Intel i7s, i5s, and i3s are virtually identical from a programming perspective. True the power difference means that games can work on the i7 but not well on the i3, but the code is identical and developers have had a lot of practice making their software as scalable as possible, and the 4One's processors are just another mode to scale to, as opposed to a complete architecture change. IBM's G5s, G4s, and G3s do not count as not even Apple supports them anymore.

ANd thats not even getting into the gpu's... PC software is impossible to optimize because practically every person can potentially have a completely different system and the game must be able to run on all of them. This is what I was talking about when I said you fundamentally do not understand what optimization is. You cant optimize software for open systems, you have to make the software flexible and scalable, which is the exact opposite of what optimizing does.

I wouldn't say it's the exact opposite, as learning to make your code flexible while still running well means you need to know about the target systems well enough that the code can run as efficiently as possible on all systems. Plus Nvidia and AMD do maintain consistency in their product enough that developers can use standard AMD or NVidia APIs in their code to allow t to run efficiently on many of the manufacturer's cards.

Since talking about assuredly proprietary partitioning systems kernels, dll files, api's etc will assuredly be meaningless, I will simply leave you with a query that will lead you to discover better yourself one of the many reasons why this is so far off the mark.

The original xbox was literally off the shelf commercial pc hardware. Why did launch games then not look like say, doom 3 aand riddick?

if i recall correctly the original Xbox approximately the power of 2012's netbooks. it was x86, but it wasn't even equivalent to a top-of-the-line gaming computer for that age. plus it was only as powerful as the Gamecube.

And more importantly, why is there still no truly functioning xbox emulator? It was just pc parts! It must work just like a pc!!! Whats the hold up? What indeed.

http://www.emulator-...m/doc.php/xbox/
Plus unlike the gamecube or anything earlier, the Xbox has a customized version of Windows XP with proprietary APIs that need to be emulated for the game to even run.

Edited by grahamf, 21 May 2014 - 08:59 AM.

[Chrop]

YOU DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT 'OPTIMIZATION' IS.

WHY WONT YOU LEARN? Open up google, type something in and LEARN. Or am I seriously going to have to categorically dismantle every boneheaded leap you make to try and patch your swiss cheese argument?

WHy the HELL would pc developers, who work with icores and seperate gpu's, with gddr5 for the gpu seperate from ddr3 for the cpu, automatically have been working on jaguars embedded with integrated gpu's, as an apu? How the hell can you seriously SERIOUSLY still make the argument that 'All pc's are the same exact hardware'. How can you not realize How can you not see how mind numbingly stupid and completely outside the realm of reality that stance is? The jaguar apu the ps4 is using ISNT EVEN ON THE COMMERCIAL MARKET YET, and they are running into rather large problems trying to integrate the apu to work well with standard motherboards. Its almost as if NOT EVERY PEICE OF PC HARDWARE IS THE EXACT SAME THING OR SOMETHING.

PC developers dont optimize, because they have to work on hundreds upon hundreds of possible hardware combinations. They have to make sure their software can scale to work on them all, which is literally, THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF OPTIMIZATION. They are NOT a first party that focuses only on one closed system.

Well sorry about the picture, I typed in Halo combat evolved on google images and took an image from there

 

Also please state where i said "All pc's are the same exact hardware" Because I'm pretty sure I said, and I quote, "PC is an open system" AND please state where I said they optimize for the PC, because I didn't (which they do on certain games), I said that they know all about the PS4 architecture so they should know how work with it,

Edited by Chrop, 21 May 2014 - 09:01 AM.

[3Dude]

Well sorry about the picture, I typed in Halo combat evolved on google images and took an image from there
 
Also please state where i said "All pc's are the same exact hardware" Because I'm pretty sure I said, and I quote, "PC is an open system" AND please state where I said they optimize for the PC, because I didn't (which they do on certain games), I said that they know all about the PS4 architecture so they should know how work with it,

Because the only way your argument could possibly work is if all pc's were exactly the same as the ps4.

You SAY THE WORDS 'open system' and 'optimization' but the meaning behind those words is very clearly lost on you for you to be attempting the argument you are. You do not have a grasp of the fundamental concepts you are arguing about.

Also, why should they know all about the ps4 architecture already when the garbage apu thats going to based off it isnt even on the market yet?

You should realize X86 instruction architecture and physical hardware architecture like you are talking about are entirely different things.

Just because 2 platforms are x86 does NOT meaning knowing one means you know the other.

[Raiden]

 

At this point the topic can be summed up pretty well

[grahamf]

 
At this point the topic can be summed up pretty well

At this point I'm guessing arguments are basically just getting dissected on a sentence by sentence basis without sticking to a specific point.

[3Dude]

Intel i7s, i5s, and i3s are virtually identical from a programming perspective. True the power difference means that games can work on the i7 but not well on the i3, but the code is identical and developers have had a lot of practice making their software as scalable as possible, and the 4One's processors are just another mode to scale to, as opposed to a complete architecture change. IBM's G5s, G4s, and G3s do not count as not even Apple supports them anymore.
I wouldn't say it's the exact opposite, as learning to make your code flexible while still running well means you need to know about the target systems well enough that the code can run as efficiently as possible on all systems. Plus Nvidia and AMD do maintain consistency in their product enough that developers can use standard AMD or NVidia APIs in their code to allow t to run efficiently on many of the manufacturer's cards.
if i recall correctly the original Xbox approximately the power of 2012's netbooks. it was x86, but it wasn't even equivalent to a top-of-the-line gaming computer for that age. plus it was only as powerful as the Gamecube.
http://www.emulator-...m/doc.php/xbox/
Plus unlike the gamecube or anything earlier, the Xbox has a customized version of Windows XP with proprietary APIs that need to be emulated for the game to even run.

Its actually going to be really tough to engage you properly, because as of right now everything you are responding too is framed under the context of chrops argument, which im just working towards a functional understanding of logic flow and not specific workings....

That being said ill try not to mix it up. If I miss one of your points just point it out and ill tackle it.

You are talking about user space, and high level program optimization. Instruction core user space level.

That being said, from that perspective you are absolutely right. And it doesnt just stop with the icores, a whole heaping lot of the same programming will run all the way past core2 and pentium. And from g5 to g4 and g3, and other ppc like cell, xenon, and gc/wii/wii u custom g3's. (yeah, there is totally a g3 still being supported and everyone here owns it)

What chrop is unknowingly talking about is hardware specific opimization, kernel level, and below, down to the 'metal'. Closed system optimization. He is referring to that, under the context of user space, which doesnt work.

When you get down there, even different i7 versions can have vastly difference performance, or at worst even become code incompatable with that specific optimized code once you start 'coding to the metal.' of that specific hardware.

This is one reason why you need such powerful machines to emulate something as weak as the wii.

I dont really have much to add to the og xbox. Aside from its programable shader pipeline... But that belongs soley in my discussion with chrop sometime in the future... His posting the wrong systems halo picture really screwed that up.