49 replies to this topic

[andodel]

In a nutshell, I believe the PS4 will be around Wiiu in power next gen, and the 720 will probably be the powerhouse. While they have mentioned that it'll come with Kinect, that doesn't mean it can't be a power house. Since Microsoft has, and always will be financially sound, I think they would be fine with taking the risk and releasing a powerful console that they'd take losses on. Then they just hope they make it back with software, probably won't, and not really care since they've got tons of cash to throw away.

[MorbidGod]

The reason for the disagreement is that UE4, Samaritan Demo, Star Wars 1313 and Agni's Philosophy clearly show stellar graphics quality, all but agni's philosphy confirmed to be running on a single GTX 680. I can see the other next consoles running a GTX660 or 670, which have near enough performance but with significantly lower price points. Also considering that they have good ties with GPU makers, they can easily have a bargain price on the those chips. These consoles are to hit end of 2013, by then the prices of these GPUs will significantly decrease to pretty much what a 560Ti costs now.

Only time will tell and it really depends on what the competition does, if one follows Nintendo and launches a current mid ranged speced console then next gen will be shorter, however if they launch with 660s 670s then Nintendo is clearly left behind in sheer computing power, like they are this gen.

We're Nintendo fans but you really can't ignore something that's in such a big flux at the moment. There's two arguements:

Pro Nintendo: Iwata is in a pretty good position to be able to talk about the specs of his console and how they will compare to others considering he actually knows the specs instead of us just guessing at them.

Con Nintendo: Nintendo has not developed in HD, they were late to the game, it wasn't just graphics but everything about the system, they didn't see online gaming being as big, they didn't see the need for mass storage (remember laurent fisher saying only Otaku's needed more space). The single player games were good, but as an overall package it just did the very basics of what the other current gen consoles offer. Iwata is in no place to say where the other consoles go because he couldn't see where trends were going back when the Wii launched.

Devil's advocate again because we really need to stop giving Nintendo a pass just because we're fans, I like Microsoft and Sony too, but I hate Xbox because don't give that a single pass because they've had too many chances. Nintendo really has to pick up, and this is from the information WE HAVE NOW, no looking to the future that they will do everything in summer conference or next year when the Wii U is mature and retro's game is out.That is giving them a pass and seriously stop giving them a pass, it's Nintendo they magically come through somehow and probably will again but that still doesn't mean we can be easy on them.

I'm coming from a very broad perspective that is seeing the industry as a whole, this could either be another Wii (less powerful, no big multiplat new IPs) or a silly ponying of game enhancements( which can be a good thing considering games are expensive to develop and better visuals etc means more work. The break even point of units sold would have to increase aswell, so that could be a good thing for the silly ponyation of better AI,graphics,rendering(more things on screen, schedules etc). However UE4 makes developing games much easier than UE3, so that's another counter arguement that engines are becoming more streamlined and efficient that less people and time is required to develop games as general developing software does a lot more work automatically (think windows XP where you had install driver disks or tell it to install from windows update, now Windows 7 just gets the drivers automatically with out any user input).

Im not saying give Nintendo a pass, but let me just say Epic has announced that the iPhone and iPad can both run UE4 right? If so, I doubt Nintendo will nit run it ... Unless they don't want it to.If they dont feel it be a successful platform and they themselves aren't planning to work on it, why make an engine run on it? But thats not the case. Epic has said they thinj it will do fine. They will want developers to come to them for the engine and will make it work.

Don't give them a pass, sure, but don't pass them up because of rumors and quotes that don't really tell us anything.

[3Dude]

all that matters is to have green light by the new game engines, but nobody comes out to say.. YES wii U supports all the new game engines. And dont tell me again that wii U dont need the new game engines, because it has IBM cpu and not an x86 cpu.. Game engines are the programs the games are built from, if nintendo dont need the new game engines, is more like, they dont need the new games.

None of what you said makes any sense.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

X86 is an instruction set for intel cpus.

IBM cpu's use an instruction set called power isa.

It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH NEEDING A GAME ENGINE.

please... PLEASE attempt to comprehend some portion of this correctly....

Intels icore cpu's rule the pc market now. Thats Epics market btw, the pc realm....

icore. ICORE.IBM and apples Power mac powerpc is dead. it died in 2005. Its intel and apple icore now.

It has been for six years. The pc world has moved past powerpc. The people IN the pcworld have moved past powerpc.

Power6 has failed to gain commercial traction, and power 7 is just starting to compete against i7.

The pcworld uses the x86(64) instruction set now (er... again...) It hasnt used power isa in six years.

EPIC DID NOT CONSIDER POWER ISA WHEN THEY MADE UNREAL 4 BECAUSE POWER ISA HAS BEEN 'DEAD' SINCE THE HUGE FALLOUT IN 2005 AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE UNTIL POWER ISA STARTS TO BECOME AS RELEVANT AS X86 IS RIGHT NOW.

Power isa is NOT A GAME ENGINE. NO ONE HAS ECER SAID BECAUSE WII U IS A POWER ARCHITECTURE CPU IT DOESNT NEED UNREAL OR OTHER ENGINES.

Power isa and x86 are cpu instruction sets. Its how your game engine communicates with your cpu.

Epic wont be sending unreal 4 to wiiu, regaurdless of how powerful it is, because they
DONT THINK IT WOULD BE WORTH THEIR TIME TO REWRITE THE ENTIRE ENGINE FOR A SINGLE PLATFORM.

Please, PLEASE, try to get this straight this time

[Steve]

I think they'll probably advance pretty well this gen, but eventually there will be a end in tech capbility and if you want a better one it will cost more/be bigger, but that's probably a long long way away.

[Plutonas]

paragunga.. are f#$# kiding me.. If I have a company with a specific ENGINE to built my games.. and if a console does not apply to my engine or is to weak to support my engine, what shall I do? Simply I will not release the game for that console... I will never make the effort or take the risks, to built my game from the scratch, with different engines, the company will loose its identity, because u say, that nitnendo use their own engines.. Every company have specific engines for their games... game engines, are the programs the games are built and supported.. If wii U is not supporting that, then for what kind of 3rd support we are talking about.. Or u suggesting that companies will use Nintendos engines for their original AAA games, just for wii U? I dont think so.

Also ur answer is very pathetic man.. u say to everybody... " Nintendo uses a technology that cannot support 3rd party support".. If nintendo indeed made a console that does not support new engines, there is no point of buying. Also about the x86 coding, its a bit more complicated, and many disagree with u.. if u search over the internet..

The following message is from IGN tech guy...
" Game engines can be recompiled for any instruction set, porting games from x86 to PPC isn't an issue if the PowerPC CPU is reasonably powerful. POWER7 has out of order execution and branch prediction, so it's not that bad. It would easily get outperformed by a modern Intel CPU clock for clock, but that's not a huge deal." So the only thing we have to wait and see, if wii U has a strong cpu, clocks and threads.. we know nothing yet.

Also xbox720 is rumored to use an IBM cpu, that will give an advantage to nintendo wii U.. if wii U is an unnecessary for the developers to bother with, alone..

Here is a complete list of game engines and if u scroll down, they also list each company with their owned game engines.. http://en.wikipedia....of_game_engines


ps: they also updated it and many of them list wii U support also... u can check. Here is ubisoft for example.. http://en.wikipedia....l_(game_engine) (watchdogs is a new engine by ubisoft, its not ANVIL)

Edited by Orion, 18 June 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[Deadly Virus]

I truly believe sony HAS to have the most powerful console next gen. Their fans rely on that that's what they have become. They are the only capable on a playstation console. That's there motto now they rely on graphics their fans are graphics whores. So IF they don't have the most powerful console next gen it will be interesting to see what their loyal fans do.

I think they'd just do a u-turn and change their beliefs, like all fanboys do. Example:

Sony fanboys in the 6th gen:
"You don't need good graphics to have good games! It doesn't matter that PS2 is weaker than GCN, cause we have all the games, you see?"

Nintendo fanboys in the 6th gen:
"Haha, look at PS2 with it's horrible graphics! GCN is the best, we have the second most powerful console! RE4 looks better on Gamecube so that's clearly the better version!"

Sony fanboys in the 7th gen:
"No no no, graphics DO matter now! Who cares about the Wii with it's last gen tech when PS3 is so powerful?! Uncharted 3 has the best graphics ever, Nintendrones!"

Nintendo fanboys in the 7th gen:
"Who cares about graphics, lol?! It's all about the games now! Graphics have never mattered and never will, that's why the Wii is the best! Sony fanboys are so ignorant for caring about how powerful their console is!"

It happens EVERY time.

[Mitch]

Nintendo fanboys in the 7th gen:
"Who cares about graphics, lol?! It's all about the games now! Graphics have never mattered and never will, that's why the Wii is the best!

Lol to bad the Wii didnt have the graphics or the games

[3Dude]

paragunga.. are f#$# kiding me.. If I have a company with a specific ENGINE to built my games.. and if a console does not apply to my engine or is to weak to support my engine, what shall I do? Simply I will not release the game for that console... I will never make the effort or take the risks, to built my game from the scratch, with different engines, the company will loose its identity, because u say, that nitnendo use their own engines.. Every company have specific engines for their games... game engines, are the programs the games are built and supported.. If wii U is not supporting that, then for what kind of 3rd support we are talking about.. Or u suggesting that companies will use Nintendos engines for their original AAA games, just for wii U? I dont think so.

Also ur answer is very pathetic man.. u say to everybody... " Nintendo uses a technology that cannot support 3rd party support".. If nintendo indeed made a console that does not support new engines, there is no point of buying. Also about the x86 coding, its a bit more complicated, and many disagree with u.. if u search over the internet..

" Game engines can be recompiled for any instruction set, porting games from x86 to PPC isn't an issue if the PowerPC CPU is reasonably powerful. POWER7 has out of order execution and branch prediction, so it's not that bad. It would easily get outperformed by a modern Intel CPU clock for clock, but that's not a huge deal." So the only thing we have to wait and see, if wii U has a strong cpu, clocks and threads.. we know nothing yet.

Also xbox720 is rumored to use an IBM cpu, that will give an advantage to nintendo wii U.. if wii U is an unnecessary for the developers to bother with, alone..

Here is a complete list of game engines and if u scroll down, they also list each company with their owned game engines.. http://en.wikipedia....of_game_engines


ps: they also updated it and many of them list wii U support also... u can check. Here is ubisoft for example.. http://en.wikipedia....l_(game_engine) (watchdogs is a new engine by ubisoft, its not ANVIL)

Of course you can rewrite something to compile on power isa instead of x86.

But its not like you push a magic recompile button and all the work is done for you.

It takes time which takes money, which is why epic wont do it if nintendo is the only power based console.

And no, people dont disagree with me... You probably just dont understand whats being said.

ESPECIALLY Nintendo.

Yes, if other consoles adopt copys with power isa this will increase the chance of epic bringing the engine over.

If you are referring to durango, nextbox's 16 core powerpc cpu, you can forget about it, its fake.

The 'leak' is a near copy paste of blue genes wiki page.

Plus,things like following current events and knowledge of Amdahls law makes identifying such bs incredibly easy.

[Plutonas]

u dont understand.. U DONT re-write.. its confirmed.. u just tweak..change a 5 phrase parameters.. nothing else...

We pc gamers do that as well and all the time!.. Imagine how easier is for developers.. They dont have 2 different engines.. one for ibm and 1 for x86.. U just change a couple of parameters.

Edited by Orion, 18 June 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[3Dude]

u dont understand.. U DONT re-write.. its confirmed.. u just tweak..change a 5 phrase parameters.. nothing else...

We pc gamers do that as well and all the time!.. Imagine how easier is for developers.. They dont have 2 different engines.. one for ibm and 1 for x86.. U just change a couple of parameters.

LMFAO.

Who said anything about 2 different engines?

Its the instruction core that needs to be changed.

If by a few parameters you mean replace the syntax of every call read check etc of the lowest communication level between software and cpu from x86 to power isa.

Sure thing kid. Nothin to it. Just tweak a couple parameters and the lowest level communication between software and cpu fixes itself. lol.

This isnt some crap hack job kids side project. Its a full scale
Cutting edge game engine and its MASSIVE.

You think its a coincidence epic has not announced a decision for ur4 support for any consoles, yet instantly announced support for the x86 instruction based iphone?

Its not.

They are waiting too see what the majority of consoles are using before deciding what to do kid.

Whether it can be done or not is not the question, it never has been, never will be, regaurdless of how many times you fail to comprehend this fact.

Of course it can be done. The matter at stake is if its worth their time to do it.

Power 7 is not winning against i7 despite being vastly more powerful, Because the convenience of sticking with x86 and having instant full compatability with workstations is too great.

So Epic has no incentive right now, in its main realm, the pc market.

Epic is waiting to see what the consoles are before making an announcment.

system power is NOT an issue, as they have already announced support for iphone.

So whats the issue?

The instruction core.

Hate to smash your nintendo dreams, but epic is NOT going to bend over backwards for Nintendo. They will only bring ur4 to wiiu if its convenient for them.

Edited by 3Dude, 19 June 2012 - 04:19 AM.

[Plutonas]

Of course you can rewrite something to compile on power isa instead of x86.

u did.. re-write means write it again ... that means 2 different things. I said that u dont re-write.,. u just change some parameters, tweaks.. nothing else.

Edited by Orion, 19 June 2012 - 06:16 AM.

[Penguin101]

Not sure if this is the right topic but I've written down the power leaps



GPU Power

Playsation - > Playstation 2 = 8x more powerful
Playstation 2 -> Playstation 3 = 5x more powerful
Playstation 3 -> Playstaion 4 ????

SNES -> N64 = 16.45x more powerfull
N64 -> Gamecube = 2.62x More Powerful
Gamecube -> Wii = 1.5x More Powerful
Wii -> Wii U rumoured to be 3.08x More Powerful

XBox -> XBox360 = 2x more powerful
360 -> "720/Loop/Infinity" -> ????

CPU Power


Playsation - > Playstation 2 = 8x more powerful
Playstation 2 -> Playstation 3 = 87.67x more powerful
Playstation 3 -> Playstaion 4 ????

SNES -> N64 = 25.82x more powerfull
N64 -> Gamecube = 5.2x More Powerful
Gamecube -> Wii = 1.5x More Powerful
Wii -> Wii U rumoured to be 13.48x More Powerful

XBox -> XBox360 = 13.41x more powerful
360 -> "720/Loop/Infinity" -> ????

RAM


Playsation - > Playstation 2 = 18x more powerful
Playstation 2 -> Playstation 3 = 14.22x more powerful
Playstation 3 -> Playstaion 4 ????

SNES -> N64 = 2.67x more powerfull
N64 -> Gamecube = 10.75x More Powerful
Gamecube -> Wii = 2.1x More Powerful
Wii -> Wii U rumoured to be 17.45x More Powerful

XBox -> XBox360 = 8x more powerful
360 -> "720/Loop/Infinity" -> ????

So what does the pattern show about next gen? It's power?

My predictions are

720/PS4 compared to PS3/360

- 3 times more GPU power
- 2 - 3 times more CPU power
- 8 times more RAM

720/PS4 compared too Wii U

- 2.02 x GPU Power
- 2 - 3 x CPU power
- 2.66 x RAM

A leap definitely, but not a huge massive leap compared to the most powerful gaming PCs

Edited by Penguin101, 20 June 2012 - 12:58 AM.

[Usman Mohammad]

the other console makers are sort of still deciding, there's two paths, the Wii U path (not much extra power) or what I call the GTX 680 route. It's tempting to have games looking as good as the demos for UE 3.9 and 4, having starwars 1313 level graphics on consoles and have something like Agni's philosphy on a console. That is a huge leap, but it's down to the vendors to decide what comes to market. Only one has to go the Wii U route and the next gen is decided upon. Otherwise both PSNext and NextBox will leave Wii U behind

[3Dude]

u did.. re-write means write it again ... that means 2 different things. I said that u dont re-write.,. u just change some parameters, tweaks.. nothing else.

I did what? What are you responding too? Nowhere in my post you quoted are the words 'I didnt'.

You dont make sense!

Making sweeping generations and using buzzwords like 'tweak' and 'parameters' do not hide your complete and absolute ignorance of the subject matter you are arguing about.

X86 and power isa are not compatable instruction sets. You will have to rewrite the entire instruction core utilizing the proper syntax for the appropriate instruction set.

Never, EVER is anything as simple as 'just tweak some parameters'.

[Plutonas]

No its not.. ask programmers, engines are utilized for all instruction sets, and if a company creates a game based on x86, it is just need a small tweak, couple of different string lines, thats it... I asked several programmers and they " THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE" ... they dont re-write...

Edited by Orion, 21 June 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[Socalmuscle]

I did what? What are you responding too? Nowhere in my post you quoted are the words 'I didnt'.

You dont make sense!

Making sweeping generations and using buzzwords like 'tweak' and 'parameters' do not hide your complete and absolute ignorance of the subject matter you are arguing about.

X86 and power isa are not compatable instruction sets. You will have to rewrite the entire instruction core utilizing the proper syntax for the appropriate instruction set.

Never, EVER is anything as simple as 'just tweak some parameters'.

I hate to say it., but you're wasting your breath with this guy.
He is a fan and a troll at the same time.
Pretending to know what he's talking about while simultaneously revealing ignorance. Now he says "ask programmers" because he obviously believes no one responding to him just perhaps may be someone who just perhaps may cook up software for a living. Lol

It's funny when those who know nothing of the subject try to "educate" others who do. At least it's free entertainment.

Edited by Socalmuscle, 22 June 2012 - 07:47 AM.

[009soulmaster]

I'm going to take a while assumption and say that ech of the three consoles are gonna be very different in terms of each other making eaone one unique and have their own identidy. this is where i think the multiplatform games are gonna be rare as each system has their own gimmick.

The Wii U will focus on connectivity and classic gameplay mixed with new ways to play such as touch screen gyroscope and such. while the games wont be focused on graphics like the others, there will be more ideas of gameplay and content due to Nintendo being more open in terms of ideas like for ex. Achievements are optional to the developers instead of being a requirement. Third parties will still be able to have their games look just as good as the other ports since the Wii U will be just as powerful as any other console it's just that its not important to them.

The PS4 will have no gimmicks and solely be marketed as a Graphics machine. Where all their games are like Final Fantasy CGI movie. When i heard that theyre only cared about being the best i instantly thought that they were gonna try to make the most powerfulest console. meaning the games will have more detail in the background and such and that gameplay is the last thing they are gonna be working on. which is sad, but i guess graphics whore are gonna be pleased. And well cool, we have the fun console, now we have a console that makes beautiful settings and scenery.

The Xbox 720 will be based around the Kinect 2.0 and Virtual Reality like the Virtual Boy but done right. meaning futuristic googles, you need a large space and with the kinect working too you have to move around or use body language which is very gimmicky and its really a mixed bag.

[Hinkik]

It may not be a huge leap in power but there is a big risk that it will be a huge visual improvement.

Wii U has two screens to render. That means it has to render a lot more pixels which means a huge visual decrease.

PS4 and XBOX 720 will probably focus all their power on that 1920x1080p so with that extra power and because of the side effects of the wii u gamepad. The visuals may be significantly better on PS4 and XBOX 720.

[Desert Punk]

Did anyone read that leaked Xbox 720 document which is basically confirmed to be a leak.

I'm still trying to get my head around the 720 spec but its 4GB memory, has upto 8x performance of the 360, bluray, 1ghz GPU and here's the wierd bit either 8 arm or x86 cpus running at 2ghz.

Also looks like the 360 is here for the long term and is going to be pushed as a set top box solution. This might help wii u.

Basically the 720 is a powerhouse compared to wii u but its going down the complicated cool running path with a very multicore cpu solution with both arm/x86 (not sure which) and the 3x powerpc cpu of the 360 for both backwards compatibility and enhanced cpu power. Maybe kinect and some extra physics code etc will be done on the powerpc chips?

It sounds like a horrible complicated design that will take years to master, ps3 style.

My guess is the choice of arm and x86 will go to x86 like an AMD cpu design. Unless its something like a x86 dual core assisted by arm cpus? That could work well but again complicated to program I would of thought.

The fabrication process is predicted to be 22-28nm or maybe thats 28nm for the gpu and 22nm for cpu.

I hope Sony don't try to beat it or they'll go bankrupt.

Personally I'd like to see a really nice compact ps4 that sits somewhere between wii u and 720 in power.

[Meelow100]

Did anyone read that leaked Xbox 720 document which is basically confirmed to be a leak.

I'm still trying to get my head around the 720 spec but its 4GB memory, has upto 8x performance of the 360, bluray, 1ghz GPU and here's the wierd bit either 8 arm or x86 cpus running at 2ghz.

Also looks like the 360 is here for the long term and is going to be pushed as a set top box solution. This might help wii u.

Basically the 720 is a powerhouse compared to wii u but its going down the complicated cool running path with a very multicore cpu solution with both arm/x86 (not sure which) and the 3x powerpc cpu of the 360 for both backwards compatibility and enhanced cpu power. Maybe kinect and some extra physics code etc will be done on the powerpc chips?

It sounds like a horrible complicated design that will take years to master, ps3 style.

My guess is the choice of arm and x86 will go to x86 like an AMD cpu design. Unless its something like a x86 dual core assisted by arm cpus? That could work well but again complicated to program I would of thought.

The fabrication process is predicted to be 22-28nm or maybe thats 28nm for the gpu and 22nm for cpu.

I hope Sony don't try to beat it or they'll go bankrupt.

Personally I'd like to see a really nice compact ps4 that sits somewhere between wii u and 720 in power.

The leaked specs are stating it's 6x more powerful than the Xbox 360, that's 2-4x more powerful than the Wii U.

Edited by Meelow100, 24 June 2012 - 10:55 AM.