118 replies to this topic

[NegaScott128]

It wasn't artificially limited; it was an artistic choice. And then they changed it BECAUSE THE FANS WANTED IT. Next you're gonna say the 360/PS3 couldn't handle the new Mass Effect 3 ending because of hardware concerns. It's the same damn thing!

[3Dude]

lol. Thank you negascott.

You dont know this, because you havent been following desert punks shenanigans, but my post was a parody of the logic hes been trolling every wii u power thread with, simply in reverse bias.

So, you have, quite to my surprise, rather flawlessly picked up my actual argument.

The missing features have nothing to do with system power, in this case, or in any wii u cpu is weak argument desert punk attempts.

The consequences all belong to other causes, typically time or budget allotment.

[Andy]

Because you wouldn't artificially limit the others, thereby turning off potential customers who acre beholden to this platforms..

Yes, they would. Why? Because Ninja Gaiden 3 sucked in the eyes of both critics and fans. They want people to forget that 3 ever happened. To do that, they are creating a better version on the Wii U that will actually give the fans what they wanted in the first place. They changed Ninja Gaiden 3 to try to attract fans of the beat-em-up genre. They failed to do that, and they alienated their traditional fans.

[Socalmuscle]

It wasn't artificially limited; it was an artistic choice. And then they changed it BECAUSE THE FANS WANTED IT. Next you're gonna say the 360/PS3 couldn't handle the new Mass Effect 3 ending because of hardware concerns. It's the same damn thing!

Not always.

Sure, it's possible there were time constraints, etc.

But if you are increasing geometry, texture quality, ai scripting,etc. there is less headroom available for more things. So the mass effect ending thing is kinda lame.

One example is the cybertron games. The first had ok graphics with lower geometry and had everything animating all the time. The characters, the world, event scripting galore, etc. the second had much less of that stuff going on but greatly improved geometry, textures, effects, everything was on a larger scale, etc. there were still some things appending in the background, but not near the level of the first game. It's called a trade off.

Being that there is a great familiarity with the old systems, it would actually be easier to implement features on them. And even the argument that the studio is saying "screw you" to the fans of the game who own other consoles which earlier renditions of the game have existed is as flawed as those games.

[NegaScott128]

lol. Thank you negascott.

You dont know this, because you havent been following desert punks shenanigans, but my post was a parody of the logic hes been trolling every wii u power thread with, simply in reverse bias.

So, you have, quite to my surprise, rather flawlessly picked up my actual argument.

The missing features have nothing to do with system power, in this case, or in any wii u cpu is weak argument desert punk attempts.

The consequences all belong to other causes, typically time or budget allotment.

Ok. Thanks, man. You really had me worried there! I can never pick up on sarcasm online.

[milky105p]

To me "equivalent" says wii u wont be getting many ports of newer next gen games then especially if they run on the new cry engine or fox or unreal 4. unity seems to be the direction that wii u is going. so that does kind of worry me, but i guess thats what other consoles are for as well without ports.

[parallaxscroll]

I don't expect Wii U to be a huge leap beyond Xbox 360 and PS3, but just think what EAD Tokyo and Retro Studios could do with even 360/PS3 levels of graphics performance. Lets assume the worst and that Wii U is only 1.5x more powerful than the current gen HD consoles. Wii U still has twice the RAM memory for games, so that right there will be a major improvement. I'm not too worried, I'm just not expecting the world.

[Soul]

To me "equivalent" says wii u wont be getting many ports of newer next gen games then especially if they run on the new cry engine or fox or unreal 4. unity seems to be the direction that wii u is going. so that does kind of worry me, but i guess thats what other consoles are for as well without ports.

Can you read? It says DirectX11 equivalent graphics not PS3 Xbox equivalent. And Directx11 is pretty good.

[Socalmuscle]

unity seems to be the direction that wii u is going. so that does kind of worry me, but i guess thats what other consoles are for as well without ports.

Lol

Nintendo adds another engine to the stockpile they've been building, which includes unreal and crytek. All of a sudden the latest addition is "the way they're going"

Wow.

The way they are going is the way of choice. The aaa games will have your choice of engine, but most will prob be on unreal or cryengine - current and future engines. Other games that aren't that ambitious can use unity without the developer having to develop their own (often subpar) engine. And unity is very nice these day.

Look for ms and Sony to follow suit in enticing developers with tons of already procured game engine tech, etc. But no one will question them. Or accuse them of heading down some unfortunate path simply because they offered a certain piece of tech in addition to others...

If a German bar happens to sell coca cola as well, it doesn't mean the beer has degraded or that the bar is no good anymore. It simply means there's another choice. If you don't like unity's Coke, then stick with Unreal's beer. L

Also, the wii u is capable or direct x11 I'f Nintendo or a studio wants to license it for wii u. And where that's not used, the open gl equivalent is available. It's all pretty sweet.

Edited by Socalmuscle, 03 October 2012 - 03:22 AM.

[Desert Punk]

lol. Thank you negascott.

You dont know this, because you havent been following desert punks shenanigans, but my post was a parody of the logic hes been trolling every wii u power thread with, simply in reverse bias.

So, you have, quite to my surprise, rather flawlessly picked up my actual argument.

The missing features have nothing to do with system power, in this case, or in any wii u cpu is weak argument desert punk attempts.

The consequences all belong to other causes, typically time or budget allotment.

You are heading for a big fall and its also pretty disgusting to say I'm trolling because I simply believe the wii u isn't as powerful as you are indicating. Reality isn't always what you wish for. As it stands you have made a case that you are sure the wii u cpu power is very powerful I personally prefer to believe the leaked information from various developers that it isn't cutting edge because they might actually be better informed than you. Clearly you don't let reality get in the way of your opinions and somehow that means people that disagree are trolling because they dare to have a different opinion.

[Dragon]

You are heading for a big fall and its also pretty disgusting to say I'm trolling because I simply believe the wii u isn't as powerful as you are indicating. Reality isn't always what you wish for. As it stands you have made a case that you are sure the wii u cpu power is very powerful I personally prefer to believe the leaked information from various developers that it isn't cutting edge because they might actually be better informed than you. Clearly you don't let reality get in the way of your opinions and somehow that means people that disagree are trolling because they dare to have a different opinion.

All it is, is an underclocked CPU. Developers just need to get used to it and learn how to get the most out of it.

[3Dude]

You are heading for a big fall and its also pretty disgusting to say I'm trolling because I simply believe the wii u isn't as powerful as you are indicating. Reality isn't always what you wish for. As it stands you have made a case that you are sure the wii u cpu power is very powerful I personally prefer to believe the leaked information from various developers that it isn't cutting edge because they might actually be better informed than you. Clearly you don't let reality get in the way of your opinions and somehow that means people that disagree are trolling because they dare to have a different opinion.

No, I say you are trolling because you constantly pull crap like this over and over and over again as if nobody will notice.

I have very consistantly stated, wii u will be around 2-3x ps360.

Only you have tried to put words in my mouth like

'sure the wii u cpu power is very powerful '

Whilst repeatedly using every bs logical folley in the book. you are constantly begging the question, using circular reasoning, circular cause and consequence, fallacy of division, false dillemmas, blatantly false attribution, quoting out of context, kettle logic, red herrings, straw mans, and the most blatantly obvious cherry picking i have ever seen.

Like, for example how you STILL havent responded after MULTIPLE prompts about WHY Ninja Gaiden 3 has superior ai, animations, and physics, including limb removal, all cpu demanding tasks that are NOT in the ps360 version of the game.

EVEN NOW you are avoiding it like the plauge, because it destroys your argument.

Thats what a troll does guy.

[milky105p]

Can you read? It says DirectX11 equivalent graphics not PS3 Xbox equivalent. And Directx11 is pretty good.

I never specified whether the ports would be this gen or next gen did I? To me this sounds like Nintendo is saying yeah our console can produce "basically the same thing" but will we? probably not. The graphics card utilized in this console wont be over a 4-5000 series radeon which means Dx 11 wont be possible but it will run Dx10.1. if it COULD run Dx11 they would just come out and say they could run DX11 not say we can mimic just about the same thing. what will the future of games run on on the other consoles which most developers will probably focus on like ps4 or nextbox? Dx11 which will have unreal 4 etc, which will need a better GPU capable of open GL4 and Dx11 not open GL3 and Dx10.1 which is what the wii u looks like it will have based on just speculation. Ultimately what I'm getting at is do you think that if this console can't truly utilize something like unreal 4 engine or something of the same caliber, will developers WANT to even take the time and money to have to rework around the wii u's separate abilities in hardware terms to make its own port which is the fate the wii suffered because devs didnt want to take the time to make a special version just for the console. IMO the wii u will be great, but all evidence to me points that the GPU will not be capable of Dx11 which many new engines will utilize and many devs will flock to those engines to make games. It will have equivalent which is the key word.

Lol

Nintendo adds another engine to the stockpile they've been building, which includes unreal and crytek. All of a sudden the latest addition is "the way they're going"

Wow.

The way they are going is the way of choice. The aaa games will have your choice of engine, but most will prob be on unreal or cryengine - current and future engines. Other games that aren't that ambitious can use unity without the developer having to develop their own (often subpar) engine. And unity is very nice these day.

Look for ms and Sony to follow suit in enticing developers with tons of already procured game engine tech, etc. But no one will question them. Or accuse them of heading down some unfortunate path simply because they offered a certain piece of tech in addition to others...

If a German bar happens to sell coca cola as well, it doesn't mean the beer has degraded or that the bar is no good anymore. It simply means there's another choice. If you don't like unity's Coke, then stick with Unreal's beer. L

Also, the wii u is capable or direct x11 I'f Nintendo or a studio wants to license it for wii u. And where that's not used, the open gl equivalent is available. It's all pretty sweet.

of course nothing against the unity engine. what i meant by the way they are going, I think nintendo will use this engine for many games, but they also are hinting to push at indie developers which is most likely utilize unity as well so thats just what i meant. the way im perceiving "equivalent" says it can't do it because of the fact that it will most likely have a 3-4 year old GPU. all speculation of course but if thats true, I believe DX 10.1 is what the console can do and not Dx11 which is basically the future of what games a year or 2 from now will be running on. If they could run Dx11 which would be an impressive statement for a console, they'd come out and gladly say it. To me saying we can do the same thing but wont do the same thing is a whole other story that says it CANT. I do hope I am wrong though and the hardware can run it, but I personally highly doubt the machine can with an underclocked cpu and a gpu thats how many years old compared to new cards PCs have these days which will run Dx11 and open GL 4.x

Edited by milky105p, 03 October 2012 - 10:24 AM.

[3Dude]

I never specified whether the ports would be this gen or next gen did I? To me this sounds like Nintendo is saying yeah our console can produce "basically the same thing" but will we? probably not. The graphics card utilized in this console wont be over a 4-5000 series radeon which means Dx 11 wont be possible but it will run Dx10.1. if it COULD run Dx11 they would just come out and say they could run DX11 not say we can mimic just about the same thing. what will the future of games run on on the other consoles which most developers will probably focus on like ps4 or nextbox? Dx11 which will have unreal 4 etc, which will need a better GPU capable of open GL4 and Dx11 not open GL3 and Dx10.1 which is what the wii u looks like it will have based on just speculation. Ultimately what I'm getting at is do you think that if this console can't truly utilize something like unreal 4 engine or something of the same caliber, will developers WANT to even take the time and money to have to rework around the wii u's separate abilities in hardware terms to make its own port which is the fate the wii suffered because devs didnt want to take the time to make a special version just for the console. IMO the wii u will be great, but all evidence to me points that the GPU will not be capable of Dx11 which many new engines will utilize and many devs will flock to those engines to make games. It will have equivalent which is the key word.



of course nothing against the unity engine. what i meant by the way they are going, I think nintendo will use this engine for many games, but they also are hinting to push at indie developers which is most likely utilize unity as well so thats just what i meant. the way im perceiving "equivalent" says it can't do it because of the fact that it will most likely have a 3-4 year old GPU. all speculation of course but if thats true, I believe DX 10.1 is what the console can do and not Dx11 which is basically the future of what games a year or 2 from now will be running on. If they could run Dx11 which would be an impressive statement for a console, they'd come out and gladly say it. To me saying we can do the same thing but wont do the same thing is a whole other story that says it CANT. I do hope I am wrong though and the hardware can run it, but I personally highly doubt the machine can with an underclocked cpu and a gpu thats how many years old compared to new cards PCs have these days which will run Dx11 and open GL 4.x

Pretty good speculation. I hate how direct x gets thrown around though. Id much rather devs and journalists used open gl for comparisons.

But they dont.

That being said ive heard its a direct x 10 level gpu with hardware support for several effects associated with dx11. Unfortunately theyve kept mum about the specific effects.

Edited by 3Dude, 03 October 2012 - 10:44 AM.

[Bunkei]

Lol

Wii u has a much better CPU. Those games, while pushing the limits of ps3/360, are not going to challenge the wii u when the code is properly written for the new hardware.

I'm not a computer whiz, but this makes more sense to me. Why would anyone judge the Wii U by games that were specifically designed for an older different architecture? At that point, it really is a matter of how much resources does the developer want to divert to the port. For a lot of developers, this may not make much financial sense since a lot of these games are already out on store shelves.

It would make more sense to judge the Wii U based on games that were being developed from the ground up for the Wii U (and the other consoles) rather than ports of existing games that were optimized for a particular architecture.

I think we will see what the Wii U can truly do in about a year to 18 months, and I don't think it will disappoint either.

[Stormage09]

at the end the only thing we want is to have this tag on next-gen multiplat games "Wii U/ps4/720" instead of "720/ps4" like it was on this gen : P

[milky105p]

I'm not a computer whiz, but this makes more sense to me. Why would anyone judge the Wii U by games that were specifically designed for an older different architecture? At that point, it really is a matter of how much resources does the developer want to divert to the port. For a lot of developers, this may not make much financial sense since a lot of these games are already out on store shelves.

It would make more sense to judge the Wii U based on games that were being developed from the ground up for the Wii U (and the other consoles) rather than ports of existing games that were optimized for a particular architecture.

I think we will see what the Wii U can truly do in about a year to 18 months, and I don't think it will disappoint either.

this is the problem im trying to get at. " equivalent" to Dx11. wouldnt it be much simpler to have a Gpu that can handle Dx11? makes much more sense and easier architecturally for developers to make games. its the same scenario for the wii. based on different code, developers will have to put in the extra time/ effort to make a different wii u version of the same game theyd gladly port over to the console IF it could just run the same engines no problem. but if it cant, it might shy away companies from bothering with a wii u version because they dont want to waste time or money on making a different version just for that console when they have 2 others to worry about. taking more time to write more code would be considered a hassle or burden instead if the console was capable of the same engines.

[Andy]

this is the problem im trying to get at. " equivalent" to Dx11. wouldnt it be much simpler to have a Gpu that can handle Dx11? makes much more sense and easier architecturally for developers to make games. its the same scenario for the wii. based on different code, developers will have to put in the extra time/ effort to make a different wii u version of the same game theyd gladly port over to the console IF it could just run the same engines no problem. but if it cant, it might shy away companies from bothering with a wii u version because they dont want to waste time or money on making a different version just for that console when they have 2 others to worry about. taking more time to write more code would be considered a hassle or burden instead if the console was capable of the same engines.

The reason that Nintendo nor Sony can have a gpu that runs Dx11 is because Microsoft owns Dx. The X Box is the only console that runs on Direct X, hence the name Direct "X Box." Therefore, both Nintendo and Sony have to use an Open GL equivalent of Dx11.

[Socalmuscle]

The reason that Nintendo nor Sony can have a gpu that runs Dx11 is because Microsoft owns Dx. The X Box is the only console that runs on Direct X, hence the name Direct "X Box." Therefore, both Nintendo and Sony have to use an Open GL equivalent of Dx11.

Microsoft also licenses their Direct X tech to anyone who wants to pay for it. Including Apple Mac developers. Paying your direct competitors for their tech simply isn't Sony's or Nintendo's "thing." And depending on the app and the sales, it can vary from profitable to pricey. MS Xbox dev licensees have it easy there. But if a developer wanted to venture out and pay for it, there is currently no barrier to doing so.

People are getting confused about the terms here.

A GPU capable of Direct X 11 does not imply that it will use it or its Direct 3D API. It may use Open GL equivalents (more often than not, if not always) and support the latest Shader Model.

There is nothing MS has that would stop Nintendo from having such hardware. And in fact, it's not the hardware It simply implies that the hardware is up to the task.

Edited by Socalmuscle, 04 October 2012 - 11:46 AM.

[Desert Punk]

No, I say you are trolling because you constantly pull crap like this over and over and over again as if nobody will notice.

I have very consistantly stated, wii u will be around 2-3x ps360.

Only you have tried to put words in my mouth like

'sure the wii u cpu power is very powerful '

Whilst repeatedly using every bs logical folley in the book. you are constantly begging the question, using circular reasoning, circular cause and consequence, fallacy of division, false dillemmas, blatantly false attribution, quoting out of context, kettle logic, red herrings, straw mans, and the most blatantly obvious cherry picking i have ever seen.

Like, for example how you STILL havent responded after MULTIPLE prompts about WHY Ninja Gaiden 3 has superior ai, animations, and physics, including limb removal, all cpu demanding tasks that are NOT in the ps360 version of the game.

EVEN NOW you are avoiding it like the plauge, because it destroys your argument.

Thats what a troll does guy.

You must be some sort of imbecile. It's not trolling to have a different opinion than you. Can't you even work that out.

Why on earth would Ninja Gaiden be cpu intensive? Surely this is exactly the sort of game where the cpu is underused.

A troll is someone who basicallly can't really argue his case most of the time so just ends up being abusive in what he writes. Clearly that is YOU!

The amount of mis-judged, useless replies you have written and you dare to criticise others.

Why do you even bother?

Again I stand by my comments that the wii u is roughly speaking 2x overall performance of current gen. I said that a long time ago and I still stand by it today. I predicted the wii u would have fast embedded video memory of between 32-128megabytes. I think I've kept realism in the equation which is sadly something you are incapable of.

The wii u will be a great console which is why I pre-ordered one but I see little point pretending it is more powerful than it is.