79 replies to this topic

[dragomix]

You know, ive been looking around a lot of sites that claim to be digging up info from iwatas tear down, and while all of them ridicule the 'small' size of the wii u's mcm cpu footprint, not a single one of them mention how its gigantic compared to the 360's cpu on the 360 slim valhalla mcm.

Hmmmmm.....

Can you compare them, and post some pictures? I cant find any pictures of Xbox 360 valhalla MCM! Are they made in same technology?

[Noonabites]

@Tricky are you telling me cod bf FIFA ac etc are selling less than 1st party games please elaborate?on which console is there any first party title outselling these franchises?halo uncharted definetely are not and if your telling me there isn't a swing away from 1st party titles being the top sellers exclusively then your wrong.

Yes, 1st party does sell better, ESPECIALLY for Nintendo (Their 10 ten best selling games are all first party). What you are doing is combining the sells of a game available on 3 different systems vs a game available on only 1 system and comparing the two. This isn't a fair analyzation at all. So look at the sales for each individual system. Best selling video games of all time (non-bundled) consist of majority 1st party titles. Yes, they make an impact.

[3Dude]

Can you compare them, and post some pictures? I cant find any pictures of Xbox 360 valhalla MCM! Are they made in same technology?

Well, this got me thinking to the recent 360 slim valhalla, the mcm containing the new 360 designs cpu and gpu.




This thing weighs in at precicely a 170 square mm. Thats less area than the average human thumbnail. (The average trimmed human thumbnail is a little under 2cm squared, or 200 square mm) As a square, its about 13 mm a side.


Heres the wii u's mcm.


How many thumbnails? It looks pretty small, compared to old fashioned seperate gpu/cpu rigs. But compared to a fellow gaming platform mcm.... Its kinda gigantic. This means the 'tiny' cpu on the wii u mcm is a colossus compared to the one on the 360 slim mcm.

Just something interesting to think about.

Edited by 3Dude, 17 October 2012 - 03:43 PM.

[giggity3000]

I completely get the point - I'm not saying 3rd party don't don't sell systems - but what I'm saying is 1st party generally decides which system. If there were no such thing as 1st party exclusives then there would be no need for more than one home console..period

True, exclusives are what make people come to A console. That's the only reason i'm still here! Metroid Ftw but there hasn't been A decent new Metroid since 2007 (Other M sucks IMO)

[Stormage09]

To be honest, don't expect next-gen graphics to greatly outclass the best of what we currently have, iwata said that, and sony responded that they are working to try to make it noticeable so that means that they already know that, ofc i think ithey will be better over time with new features and graphic engines, but atleast for a few years they will be similar

the watch dogs demo was running on a high end i7, one or two 680 GTX and 16GB of ram, no way the next xbox and ps4 are going to be that powerful, and this UE 4 demo on a similar pc specs

Yes, they look good and nice, but is not a real BIG leap comparing it with the best on ps3 like GOW 3 or Uncharted 3, or BF 3 on PC at max settings, and they are already running on machines that are more powerful than the next xbox and ps

Edited by Stormage09, 17 October 2012 - 04:07 PM.

[dragomix]

How many thumbnails? It looks pretty small, compared to old fashioned seperate gpu/cpu rigs. But compared to a fellow gaming platform mcm.... Its kinda gigantic. This means the 'tiny' cpu on the wii u mcm is a colossus compared to the one on the 360 slim mcm.

Isnt xbox 360 slim SoC chip, and Wii U has MCM? Any way, there are people thinking that Nintendo couldn't do SoC because CPU is 45nm, an GPU 40 or 28nm. Xbox 360 has 45nm CPU and GPU, and has SoC.

@Stormage09: There is no PC that can use full potential of hardware! So there is always 30-50% performance loss due to architecture, stupid Windows, DirecX, drivers, optimization... There is no way that PC with Xbox 360 hardware could ever achieve that kind of graphics, no WAY! Hardware in consoles achieve its full potential!

Edited by dragomix, 17 October 2012 - 04:01 PM.

[Stormage09]

for that reason even if the wii u its only x2 more powerful than the ps3 in graphics wise it should be enough to make a really really awesome graphics

Edited by Stormage09, 17 October 2012 - 04:18 PM.

[3Dude]

Isnt xbox 360 slim SoC chip, and Wii U has MCM? Any way, there are people thinking that Nintendo couldn't do SoC because CPU is 45nm, an GPU 40 or 28nm. Xbox 360 has 45nm CPU and GPU, and has SoC.

No, valhalla is an mcm, for it to be a system on a chip, it needs to be a SYSTEM, on a chip, ie pretty much the entire 360, on a chip, the 360 would be cell phone size if this were the case. Valhalla is just a gpu and cpu on a chip, a multi chip module, as stated in the official documentation i posted in the pic.

You should put more stock in your own power of research and deduction, rather than relying on the word of the gaming media, they are no longer competent enough to be reliable.

[Stormage09]

As i see it, the main engines for the next gen are:

-Unreal engine 4 and 3
-Cryengine 3
-Frostbite 2

we already know that the wii u can run frostbite 2 ( because 360 and ps3 can lol ) and crytek itself said that cryengine 3 runs "beautyful on wii u" and UE 3, we only need to confirm if it can run UE 4, they said that UE 4 its very scalable its even portable to mobiles, so 99% chance that the wii u can run it

Edited by Stormage09, 17 October 2012 - 04:32 PM.

[dragomix]

for that reason even if the wii u its only x2 more powerful than the ps3 in graphics wise it should be enough to make a really really awesome graphics

I played BF3, full HD, X11, all details on High, and when I compare that to best Xbox 360 games (graphics wise) like Halo 4, GOW3, RDR... I dont see a big gap. But, as I said before, BF3 like almost all games started its life on Xbox 360 dev kit, so you cant know what is going to happen when console generation changes. But as you said, 2x PS360 is enough for any next gen game to come to Wii U. Why? I dont think Next box will be more than 4-5x Xbox 360. I think that GPU on Next box will be maximum 800 shaders, 16 ROPs, minimum that Wii U has is 400 shaders, 8 ROPs. If Wii U GPU has teselation unit, than there is nothing to fear!

@ 3Dude: But in the document it is stated: Motherboard with CPU GPU SoC?
http://arstechnica.c...gpu-combo-chip/

Edited by dragomix, 17 October 2012 - 04:35 PM.

[3Dude]

fear!

@ 3Dude: But in the document it is stated: Motherboard with CPU GPU SoC?
http://arstechnica.c...gpu-combo-chip/

No, the document does not say that. I HAVE the document, the picture from that article is from, its the same one the xray i posted is from (look at the splash graphic at the top of the slides). Read what is said AROUND the words 'soc', it says cpu gpu soc.

Thats marketing shenanigans, by calling the cpu and gpu a 'system' under different context than the word system is used in system on a chip, they can get away with a little misdirection in the opening pages, hoping the first impression sticks, and the clarification made later under package technology (The slide showing an xray of the real chip and in depth statistics) is glossed over/ignored.

An actual system on a chip requires all components of a computer to be, ON the chip, not merely the gpu cpu and memory controllers.

" that integrates all components of a computer or other electronic system into a single chip. It may contain digital, analog, mixed-signal, and often radio-frequency functions—all on a single chip substrate. A typical application is in the area of embedded systems."

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_on_a_chip

If Jhon stokes was competent at his job, he would have pointed that out, or at the very least noticed the contradiction within the same documentation and done something journalist like and found out what was going on, and then pointed it out.

[scotty79]

I see some people finding it hard to fathom that there is a general swing away from 1st party games as the EXCLUSIVE top sellers.
This is just not trueif you look at say the n64 top games sold you would see 100% of the top ten selling games are all first party.Moving swiftly on to the xbox then you see that of the top 10 selling games 7 are not exclusive to the xbox and 6 are not first party (fable made it to pc).
Then look at ps2 titles that sold over 5 million of the 8 titles that did 5 were exclusive 2 were first party.I personally feel to understand my point people have to realise the difference between exclusive and first party.
As well I take on board that nintendo is a special case in this argument as most of their top ten sales list are filled with first party titles.For me this is because up until the wii u the ds 3ds and wii have appealed to a certain niche market.A lot of these buyers expected and were pleased with the big games in their collection being nintendo first party.
However jump to wii u and the interest it is getting and there are a lot of people like me interested in the new tech/console/platform who have maybe had other allegiances to other companies as regards gaming (the last time the only system in my house was a nintendo was the n64).People like me want to see the third party games that will appearon the other consolesand not be made to choose between them and first party nintendo titles.After all I keep hearing the words "core" and "hardcore" in the wii u events so surely this is time for the big N to bring in all the people they alienated with the wii?Im delighted that a lot of you are here to see what new nintendo titles will appear.I though want a lock stock replacement for the ageing xbox360 in my house.The flaming anyone gets on here for suggesting anything other than nintendo is the best and reggie (body is ready!) is the second coming of the messiah, makes me think that some of you people know the truth.
As successful as the wii was commercially,be under no illusion that they will not achieve sales like that again on the back of motion control (or assymetrical gameplay for that matter).So the only credible option is to pitch the wii u as the best system for "core"(sorry getting sick of it myself) gamers.This means sorting out the differences with ea and keeping tighter links than previously with ALL the third party publishers.
Now beforethe flaming starts let me explain, I pre ordered early on am stoked for the wii u and want it to succeed.I have been around long enough to have gamed on everything from the original nes to the 3ds and everything in between.I miss the time that nintendo made hands down no arguments the best systems.I have become disenfranchised with both sony and microsoft and want something new.The people on here who are hardcore ninty fans good for you,you know what you want and most likely will get it.I think that without my type of opinion (constructive criticism based on past (wii) experiences )then the wii u will be in danger of bad support (third party) and most likely get passed over by lots of people.In favour of the coming systems from sony (never trust again so much hassle over credit card details) and microsoft (bored of paying for an online service that should be covered by the cost of the games i buy).Nintendo has a unique oppportunity to beat both to the punch here and it wont take much effort on their part to cement a huge enthusiastic userbase made up of ALL types of gamers.

Edited by scotty79, 18 October 2012 - 12:55 AM.

[dragomix]

I see some people finding it hard to fathom that there is a general swing away from 1st party games as the EXCLUSIVE top sellers.
This is just not trueif you look at say the n64 top games sold you would see 100% of the top ten selling games are all first party.Moving swiftly on to the xbox then you see that of the top 10 selling games 7 are not exclusive to the xbox and 6 are not first party (fable made it to pc).

When we are talking about Microsoft, first party game is any game that is only on PC an Xbox. PC is their platform also, many people give more money for buying windows and their other software than for buying console. There is almost no game that was made for xbox that didnt came to PC. Xbox 360 changed that, but I think they will release all those games in one point in time for PC trough cloud gaming.

No, the document does not say that. I HAVE the document, the picture from that article is from, its the same one the xray i posted is from (look at the splash graphic at the top of the slides). Read what is said AROUND the words 'soc', it says cpu gpu soc.

Thats marketing shenanigans, by calling the cpu and gpu a 'system' under different context than the word system is used in system on a chip, they can get away with a little misdirection in the opening pages, hoping the first impression sticks, and the clarification made later under package technology (The slide showing an xray of the real chip and in depth statistics) is glossed over/ignored.

An actual system on a chip requires all components of a computer to be, ON the chip, not merely the gpu cpu and memory controllers.

" that integrates all components of a computer or other electronic system into a single chip. It may contain digital, analog, mixed-signal, and often radio-frequency functions—all on a single chip substrate. A typical application is in the area of embedded systems."

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_on_a_chip

If Jhon stokes was competent at his job, he would have pointed that out, or at the very least noticed the contradiction within the same documentation and done something journalist like and found out what was going on, and then pointed it out.

Call it as you like, it is different than Wii U MCM. Xbox 360 has one chip, in it GPU and CPU with L2 cache together. Wii U has CPU + cache on one chip and GPU + EDRAM on other chip, and all that on same die. You are right, when we combine area of Vejle chip, and Wii U's GPU and CPU chip, we get that Wii U chips are significantly bigger, especially GPU, but we dont know how much area EDRAM uses on GPU chip. So we really dont know enough to say how powerful Wii U is just by measuring chips.

Edited by dragomix, 18 October 2012 - 01:23 AM.

[3Dude]

When we are talking about Microsoft, first party game is any game that is only on PC an Xbox. PC is their platform also, many people give more money for buying windows and their other software than for buying console. There is almost no game that was made for xbox that didnt came to PC. Xbox 360 changed that, but I think they will release all those games in one point in time for PC trough cloud gaming.



Call it as you like, it is different than Wii U MCM. Xbox 360 has one chip, in it GPU and CPU with L2 cache together. Wii U has CPU + cache on one chip and GPU + EDRAM on other chip, and all that on same die. You are right, when we combine area of Vejle chip, and Wii U's GPU and CPU chip, we get that Wii U chips are significantly bigger, especially GPU, but we dont know how much area EDRAM uses on GPU chip. So we really dont know enough to say how powerful Wii U is just by measuring chips.

Its not about calling it what you like, its about calling it what it is. And no, the 360 valhalla is NOT one chip, the gpu and cpu are different chips connected by a front side bus on the substrate, in fact there are about 11 chips in the valhalla.

There are 32MB embedded dram on the gpu. I wasnt talking about the gpu, but the cpu, but since you brought it up, the gpu itself appears to be a little larger than the entirety of valhalla. But i dont know the process nm size of the U gpu.

Back to the cpu, it also has embedded edram for l2, but unlike valhalla, its on the processor cores themselves, not in a seperate companion core. Since both the cpu's are known to be on a 45nm process, yes, size is a VERY telling trait to respective power, as more size=more transistors=more power. And thats not even getting into things like six generations newer architecture and out of order processing over processing vs in order.

[dragomix]

Its not about calling it what you like, its about calling it what it is. And no, the 360 valhalla is NOT one chip, the gpu and cpu are different chips connected by a front side bus on the substrate, in fact there are about 11 chips in the valhalla.

There are 32MB embedded dram on the gpu. I wasnt talking about the gpu, but the cpu, but since you brought it up, the gpu itself appears to be a little larger than the entirety of valhalla. But i dont know the process nm size of the U gpu.

Back to the cpu, it also has embedded edram for l2, but unlike valhalla, its on the processor cores themselves, not in a seperate companion core. Since both the cpu's are known to be on a 45nm process, yes, size is a VERY telling trait to respective power, as more size=more transistors=more power. And thats not even getting into things like six generations newer architecture and out of order processing over processing vs in order.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I think that Wii U CPU is superior to what Xbox 360 has, but i cant tell by how much. On the other hand, I know that Wii U GPU is about 3x that of Xbox 360 if we compare just the GPU chips, but when we compare architecture Wii U hes far superior one, it is designed to have MCM, Xbox 360 got one 3 years ago so there was no benefit of having one for them except lower power consumption and heat. Just to add Wii U GPU is almost certainly 40nm.

[3Dude]

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I think that Wii U CPU is superior to what Xbox 360 has, but i cant tell by how much. On the other hand, I know that Wii U GPU is about 3x that of Xbox 360 if we compare just the GPU chips, but when we compare architecture Wii U hes far superior one, it is designed to have MCM, Xbox 360 got one 3 years ago so there was no benefit of having one for them except lower power consumption and heat. Just to add Wii U GPU is almost certainly 40nm.

Oh no, i cant tell by how much either, but that wasnt what i was trying to say, just that despite its small size, which media outlets erroneously use to say its less powerful than ps360 cpu's, its actually BIGGER than 360's cpu when made on the same process and put in a mcm.

That being said, its lower clock speed and designed purpose indicate its not going to beat the ps360 cpu in the process it specializes in. namely floating operations a second. Then again, all signs point to the x86 jaguars in the ps4/xbox next are going down the same path. Not that its really a big deal beyond requiring a little effort for straight ports, general processing is far more important for cpu's than floating point.

[kirbylover]

i appreciate all you guys posting and responding. this is the best forums website on the net. love you guys dearly.... just about a month left.... then we all will be enjoying nintendo in HD.

I agree.

[SoldMyWiiUAndLeftTheForums]

I agree.

Me too

[dragomix]

That being said, its lower clock speed and designed purpose indicate its not going to beat the ps360 cpu in the process it specializes in. namely floating operations a second. Then again, all signs point to the x86 jaguars in the ps4/xbox next are going down the same path. Not that its really a big deal beyond requiring a little effort for straight ports, general processing is far more important for cpu's than floating point.

Everything comes down to games code. Clock speed mean nothing if developer optimize game for it. I was playing last year with my PC's CPU clock speed. I downclocked it to 2.6GHz, and overclocked it to 3.6GHz per core. FPS gain in games was minimal or there was no gain at all.

I really think that Wii U is powerful console, and that it can hold on for next gen.

[3Dude]

Everything comes down to games code. Clock speed mean nothing if developer optimize game for it. I was playing last year with my PC's CPU clock speed. I downclocked it to 2.6GHz, and overclocked it to 3.6GHz per core. FPS gain in games was minimal or there was no gain at all.

I really think that Wii U is powerful console, and that it can hold on for next gen.

This is true. IF you write the code for the hardware.

If you dont you run into trouble, and become the source of eurogamer sensationalist misinformation.