169 replies to this topic

[InsaneLaw]

eDRAM is essentially L3 cache. The 360 has 10mb.
http://en.wikipedia....ox_360#Hardware

The Xbox360 has 1MB of L2 cache(total), the EDRAM in that is used for the GPU, not the CPU, it even says if you click on the hardware link.

http://en.wikipedia....ox_360_hardware

Where as the Wii U will apparently use the EDRAM as cache(like the Power7 does), hence 4MB of L3 cache per core(like the Power7). Although I don't know why people are saying it's a tri-core, no-one knows how many cores it has except for Nintendo and the developers.

Edited by Stulaw90, 13 May 2012 - 12:19 AM.

[Desert Punk]

I must admit I was going with the theory that the Wii U would have a single piece of silicon holding both gpu and cpu and other memory. If all these cache rumours are correct its clear the wii u will split gpu and cpu into seperate silicon. A real shame as by mounting the gpu, cpu and main video memory together on the same silicon you can practically abolish a lot of cache memory as its not needed.

I was really hoping for an efficient chip design that would allow blistering performance between cpu and gpu. Cache memory is about compensating for slower bandwidth between seperate integrated circuits. Clearly a multi-core cpu benefits from each core having cache but you shouldn't need as much if its on the same silicon. The 360 slim has everything practically on one chip except for main memory as a cost cutting measure but can't benefit from it in performance terms because it has to be compatible with earlier 360 models that didn't. Wii U could have fully benefitted from this like the 3DS does. The 3DS only has a 266mhz arm11 cpu for games (the other is for the operating system) but the fact everything is on the same silicon gives the 3DS a huge performance gain that makes up for the limited cpu power of a single cpu. The bandwidth and latency are fantastic and pushes the 3DS above expected performance. Its still pretty limited in real terms but not as limited as you would expect.

The thing that worries me about the wii U is Nintendo have a history of using the main cpu for a lot of secondary tasks to cut costs. The DS, 3DS etc make use of the main cpu for wireless processing and other features where as the psp had a dedicated wifi processor and also the sound chip was a more dedicated design. I'm wondering if Nintendo will actually dedicate one core to the operating system and other background tasks. The 360 doesn't for example. Most of the 360 cpu performance is available for games. Its a cost cutting measure that is invisible to most people but is under the hood so to speak.

What I was hoping for was something like;

a 2.4ghz-3.2ghz cpu 2-4 core
32-64meg dedicated video memory
400-600mhz gpu
wii gpu with 2meg frame buffer/1meg texture cache (a bit like the Arm Mali is incorporated in the 3DS main chip for DS compatibility)
cache memory
0.5-1GB memory

All on the same silicon with any addtional memory external. So for example it could have an additional 1GB as a single seperate IC. This would give the rumoured 1.5GB of main memory. The 0.5GB built into the chip would eliminate the need for as much cache memory generally from the cpu. So effectively the external 1GB of memory acts as the cache from its optical drive a bit like the 16MEG memory on the Gamecube or the 64MEG of memory in the wii. You put the code and data that needs fast processing into the fast 0.5GB and you use the 1GB as slower memory. Assuming the wii U optical drive is faster than ps3 then you end up with a design that compensates very well for lack of a hard drive.

So effectively you have a console that is cheap to make and therefore profitable yet can still outperform 360/PS3 in real terms (despite some of its component parts looking weaker) and still has the great new controller.

That said I don't know how easy it is to integrate all that into one I.C but I did read that IBM yields now are excellent and the most recent slim 360 has also integrated the hardware upscaler into the main i.c. as well.

Maybe I'm being optimistic about getting 0.5GB memory on there as well but the raspberry pi board integrates 256MEG of memory into the silicon as well as having a 2 core gpu and single core cpu and thats a very low cost, low production run design. Also you get tiny single bits of silicon now used in microsd cards that hold 64GB of memory.

Anyway the benefits are huge, huge memory bandwidth and neglible latency. Result is wii U performs far above the sum of its component parts. Remember the PS3 has memory bandwidth limitations and so does the 360 to a lesser extent. The best memory bandwidth in the 360 is the blistering speed between gpu and the 10MB of built in video memory. Also in the wii U even if the gpu is a bit more basic it would still be capable of 1080p easily but possibly without so much texturing or polygons.

[10k]

The Xbox360 has 1MB of L2 cache(total), the EDRAM in that is used for the GPU, not the CPU, it even says if you click on the hardware link.

http://en.wikipedia....ox_360_hardware

Where as the Wii U will apparently use the EDRAM as cache(like the Power7 does), hence 4MB of L3 cache per core(like the Power7). Although I don't know why people are saying it's a tri-core, no-one knows how many cores it has except for Nintendo and the developers.

Correct. The Wii U will use it's eDRAM for the CPU instead of the GPU like the Xbox does. However, if the GPUis on the same die as the CPU then they will both share the eDRAM.

In reference to the tri-core part, the latest GAF dev kit rumors are the Wii U having only 3 cores with Nintendo banking on the high eDRAM and DSP (a separate dedicated recession to handle all audio) to save the CPU's major resources.

[Stewox]

U speak about ram and I speak about cache.. Totally different things, so dont confuse it.

XBOX360 does NOT have L3... only L1 and L2


The 10mb of edram is the gpu ram.. lol Many people get confused with that..


so lets make it clear...

XBOX got 512ram shared and 10mb edram especially for graphics... The cpu is L1 and L2 cache with 1mb.


Wii U is 3 or 4 cores... L1 3or4x32kb, L2 3or4x64kb, L3 3or4x 1 up to 4, OVERALL 4 up to 16mb of CPU CACHE.. THAT HAS Nothing to do with EDRAM. CPU makes bazillion of calculations and needs a special ram to process all this information to the system... Thats what cpu CACHE is needed.. more the better... or else it lags if its "1mb for instanse" lol

now wii U got extra edram 512mb apparently and an extra 1 gig of shared ram... Now its more clear for u? (its not clear yet, how much ram and gpu ram, wii U got, so this is just a speculation).


Dont get confused guys with EDRAM as CPU cache... cpu cache has NOTHING to do with system memory, it is a special ram ESPECIALLY for the cpu cores ... nothing else. Thats how we say "xbox and ps3 dont have GREAT AI potential" because they got 1 or 2 mb cache. So the cpu calculations in RTS or FPS games is limited, or past due for the new games and engines.. Especially for XBOX, that does not have dedicated sound chip, and the cpu takes this burden to calculate also the sound of the games.

so wii U is bob-omb.. lol


read this table of specs... look at the xbox cpu table and look down bellow the GPU section... http://hardware.team...ecifications/p1

So guys, get excited even more, Wii U is more than you think..... thats what I am screaming to you all this months, but it seems nobody understand it.. lol

Yes, CPU cache is inside the CPU core it self and is required for cpu to actually function. additional EDRAM is be embedded on die or ASIC, used for other stuff such as frame buffer

eDRAM is costlier ofcourse, its 3 times as dense than sdram and offers much more performance because of density and effectiveness of the short-distance interconnect.

edram is mostly used in consoles and ibm power 7 cpus , we are not sure yet if the wiiu implementation has edram on cpu die or asic, but there are theories and hunches the other tech guy always crunch about which i dont recall at this moment.

now we get to shared or main ram ... but we dont know if GPU has dedicated gddr so .... if it has thats the external gddr then, our main external ram still remains shared ... its also the audio DSP that uses that one.

If theres only one external shared ram its probably 2GB ...

[Stewox]

U speak about ram and I speak about cache.. Totally different things, so dont confuse it.

XBOX360 does NOT have L3... only L1 and L2


The 10mb of edram is the gpu ram.. lol Many people get confused with that..


so lets make it clear...

XBOX got 512ram shared and 10mb edram especially for graphics... The cpu is L1 and L2 cache with 1mb.


Wii U is 3 or 4 cores... L1 3or4x32kb, L2 3or4x64kb, L3 3or4x 1 up to 4, OVERALL 4 up to 16mb of CPU CACHE.. THAT HAS Nothing to do with EDRAM. CPU makes bazillion of calculations and needs a special ram to process all this information to the system... Thats what cpu CACHE is needed.. more the better... or else it lags if its "1mb for instanse" lol

now wii U got extra edram 512mb apparently and an extra 1 gig of shared ram... Now its more clear for u? (its not clear yet, how much ram and gpu ram, wii U got, so this is just a speculation).


Dont get confused guys with EDRAM as CPU cache... cpu cache has NOTHING to do with system memory, it is a special ram ESPECIALLY for the cpu cores ... nothing else. Thats how we say "xbox and ps3 dont have GREAT AI potential" because they got 1 or 2 mb cache. So the cpu calculations in RTS or FPS games is limited, or past due for the new games and engines.. Especially for XBOX, that does not have dedicated sound chip, and the cpu takes this burden to calculate also the sound of the games.

so wii U is bob-omb.. lol


read this table of specs... look at the xbox cpu table and look down bellow the GPU section... http://hardware.team...ecifications/p1

So guys, get excited even more, Wii U is more than you think..... thats what I am screaming to you all this months, but it seems nobody understand it.. lol

Yes, CPU cache is inside the CPU core it self and is required for cpu to actually function. additional EDRAM is be embedded on die or ASIC, used for other stuff such as frame buffer

eDRAM is costlier ofcourse, its 3 times as dense than sdram and offers much more performance because of density and effectiveness of the short-distance interconnect.

edram is mostly used in consoles and ibm power 7 cpus , we are not sure yet if the wiiu implementation has edram on cpu die or asic, but there are theories and hunches the other tech guy always crunch about which i dont recall at this moment.

now we get to shared or main ram ... but we dont know if GPU has dedicated gddr so .... if it has thats the external gddr then, our main external ram still remains shared ... its also the audio DSP that uses that one.

If theres only one external shared ram its probably 2GB ...

[10k]

Yes, CPU cache is inside the CPU core it self and is required for cpu to actually function. additional EDRAM is be embedded on die or ASIC, used for other stuff such as frame buffer

eDRAM is costlier ofcourse, its 3 times as dense than sdram and offers much more performance because of density and effectiveness of the short-distance interconnect.

edram is mostly used in consoles and ibm power 7 cpus , we are not sure yet if the wiiu implementation has edram on cpu die or asic, but there are theories and hunches the other tech guy always crunch about which i dont recall at this moment.

now we get to shared or main ram ... but we dont know if GPU has dedicated gddr so .... if it has thats the external gddr then, our main external ram still remains shared ... its also the audio DSP that uses that one.

If theres only one external shared ram its probably 2GB ...

Correct. And history of Nintendo suggests they will share RAM with the main memory pool and GPU working together. I would bank on 2GB of RAM total. NIntendo has shared RAM on all of their consoles (although I believe the 3DS has some VRAM allocated)

Edited by 10k, 28 May 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[Stewox]

Correct. And history of Nintendo suggests they will share RAM with the main memory pool and GPU working together. I would bank on 2GB of RAM total. NIntendo has shared RAM on all of their consoles (although I believe the 3DS has some VRAM allocated)

Not sure, the audio DSP will most probably use shared RAM but that's not the issue. There is big advantage with audio DPS, because you have all the resources for the audio there, developers don't have to worry about the balance and they can start making complete audio assets much quicker in the project as they know the capabilities and having in mind that the rest of the game graphically or processually won't impact the audio's budget. it's the specialization and you can have groups of teams worrying about different stuff, it's better because the programmers don't need to communicate as much as to make everyone sure it's on same page, for example a big engine change comes and they would have to report to every other group which messes up the productivity if you throw work away in the middle.

With the audio out of the way, it would be possible to suck out even more resources.

I expect WiiU software pretty clean and organized, it's what nintendo does well, with the system hardware and software layer stable it's going to blow developers away.

[kwokings033]

we also know it doesn't support game cube controllers :-(

[Wonder Blue]

Ok, so i dont know about tech, specs, or whatever, but i've been thinking about this a lot:

people mocks the wiiu cause it "looks like 360/ps3 games so far", but those games come at the end-life of those consoles, so they can be considered "the best looking ones" as logic goes...

so the wiiu is a whole new console that can actually run games that look as good as those of other consoles in the end of their life cycles...isnt that a good thing, actually? doesnt that mean that WiiU games will (logically) look better as far as its cycle goes in the years? it looks like a natural transition to me...

[JaylisJayP]

Ok, so i dont know about tech, specs, or whatever, but i've been thinking about this a lot:

people mocks the wiiu cause it "looks like 360/ps3 games so far", but those games come at the end-life of those consoles, so they can be considered "the best looking ones" as logic goes...

so the wiiu is a whole new console that can actually run games that look as good as those of other consoles in the end of their life cycles...isnt that a good thing, actually? doesnt that mean that WiiU games will (logically) look better as far as its cycle goes in the years? it looks like a natural transition to me...

If that is the case (the graphics at the end of the lifecycle vs. the beginning of the Wii U lifecycle), the Wii U will fall into the same problem that PCs do right now, in that most multi-platform games are developed at the specs of the most popular consoles, and the ones that have been around the longest are the most familiar (and thus probably cheaper) to develop for. So right now the PC is obviously able to outperform the 360 and PS3, but the graphics are tailored to what the PS3 and 360 can handle. As long as the 360 and PS3 are around, you are never going to get a multi-platform game like Arkham City (just an example) developed for the Wii U first and then ported to the 360/PS3, just a strong educated guess there. The Wii U will get the ports. Sure, they'll spend a little time to make their maps or inventory screens show up on the Gamepad, but unless it's going to be a Wii U exclusive game from someone like Ubisoft, the Wii U will likely be an afterthought. The Wii sold a TON but it was still an afterthought from third-parties, if it got attention at all.

Unless Nintendo shows something amazing in the next few months that we haven't seen yet in terms of graphics on first-party titles, you'll only start to see the graphical power of the Wii U when it gets ports of PS4 / XBOX 720 games...but by then both of those machines likely will be outperforming the Wii U in that department, so Wii U will be behind the other guys at that point.

I also don't think people are "mocking" the Wii U for that. I am personally just really disappointed that they're talking about carrying titles like Arkham City. Is that supposed to impress me? Tell me you're going to get Arkham World looking just as good as any console will make it LIKELY look in the next 2 years. THAT'S the thing that irks a lot of hardcore gamers, they probably all already have either a 360 or a PS3 or both. Would I (they) really care about the Wii U getting those games as a selling point to me buying another perceived current gen console? I don't think when people were asking for the Wii U to go after more third-party support, they were talking about current gen games. Have you seen or played many of the current gen games that were ported to the Wii? A good majority of them are pretty bad, because the Wii not only can't hold a candle to them visually, but they have to change the game to fit within the system's overall hardware deficiencies. Remember Dead Rising on the Wii? Ugh....THAT's what gamers are afraid will happen with all the PS4/720 games ported down to the Wii U.

Do I have proof that the next-gen Sony/MS consoles will be much more powerful that the Wii U? No, just another reasonable guess at this point.

And this is just me throwing out my opinion, but unlike the last gen, I don't see Nintendo getting by on the innovation of the console as a way to explain glaring hardware deficiencies when compared to the next offerings from Sony and MS. The Wii got people hook, line and sinker...but if those casuals were really that into the motion gaming revolution AND stuck with it AND felt they needed the upgrade to HD, they likely found a way to get a Move or Kinect by now already. I don't think the tablet controller is going to have even a fraction of the "word of mouth" effect in selling the console that Wii Bowling and Wii Tennis alone did for the Wii. Nobody is going to go over to someone's house for a party, see them playing Luigi hide and seek with the tablet controller and then run out to the store to see if they can find one.

Edited by JaylisJayP, 07 June 2012 - 11:33 PM.

[Nollog]

The UPad does NOT have an Infra-red sensor bar by the camera.

This video showcases this conclusively.
See the sensor bar under the TV? Violet lights.
See the black bar by the camera on the UPad? No lights.

IR can be seen by camera's but not by the naked eye.

[Rvaisse]

The UPad does NOT have an Infra-red sensor bar by the camera.

This video showcases this conclusively.
See the sensor bar under the TV? Violet lights.
See the black bar by the camera on the UPad? No lights.

IR can be seen by camera's but not by the naked eye.

Of course the upad has an infra red sensor bar by the camera !! How would you use the wiimote with the gamepad without it?!
Not seeing it in this video doesnt mean its not there, maybe its just not turned on !

[Nollog]

Well for now it's a known fact that it wasn't on in any of the demo's at e3 2012.

[Rvaisse]

You re right about that !

Nintendo on its officiel e3 site has given a picture of the console and the wii u game pad with all the tech specs on it, and theres definitely an ir sensor bar mentionned on the wii u gamepad.

[Nollog]

Reggie said it can act as a sensor bar, so it must have been off.

[silverismoney]

wii U has a dedicated DSP no way round that ITS BETTER THAN NO DSP FACT SO DONT EVEN GO THERE X360/PS3 FANS havnt read thru many posts in the thread but clearly wiiu doesnt support 5.1 sound it supports CLEARLY

5.1 plus 3d stereo plus mono sound all at the same time thats 5.1 surround box to speakers 2x stereo 3d to wiiupad and mono to a wii remote speaker ALL AT THE SAME TIME thats clearly far more sound performance than just 5.1

wii could do non digital out 5.1 and then support multipul wii remote speakers with sound ALL AT THE SAME TIME the wii sound chip supports pro logic 2 5.1 and pro logic 2 7.1
if wii can support 7.1 pro logic 2

then wiiu will be a good step up again and no cpu drain on so many sound outputs REAL TIME is clearly very good NOW IMAGINE WIIU SOUND PROCESSOR TOTALLY PUT TO CONSOLE SOUND OUT AND NO CONTROLLERS very nice in deed

[WisdomPowerCourage]

I'm just waiting for Nintendo to confirm that the Wii U can make me a sandwich.

[Penguin101]

Well doesn't the gamepad need some sort of IR technology because it functions as a Universal TV remote?

[Soul]

I'm just waiting for Nintendo to confirm that the Wii U can make me a sandwich.

It's clearly says on Nintendo's page "Wii U's aren't girlfriends." Which is contradicting to Reggie saying "It's Nintendo it does everything."

[Desert Punk]

wii U has a dedicated DSP no way round that ITS BETTER THAN NO DSP FACT SO DONT EVEN GO THERE X360/PS3 FANS havnt read thru many posts in the thread but clearly wiiu doesnt support 5.1 sound it supports CLEARLY

5.1 plus 3d stereo plus mono sound all at the same time thats 5.1 surround box to speakers 2x stereo 3d to wiiupad and mono to a wii remote speaker ALL AT THE SAME TIME thats clearly far more sound performance than just 5.1

wii could do non digital out 5.1 and then support multipul wii remote speakers with sound ALL AT THE SAME TIME the wii sound chip supports pro logic 2 5.1 and pro logic 2 7.1
if wii can support 7.1 pro logic 2

then wiiu will be a good step up again and no cpu drain on so many sound outputs REAL TIME is clearly very good NOW IMAGINE WIIU SOUND PROCESSOR TOTALLY PUT TO CONSOLE SOUND OUT AND NO CONTROLLERS very nice in deed

I don't quite understand what you are writing. The wii u is meant to support 5.1 via hdmi and thats 6 unique channels including the .1 bass channel. Nothing wrong with that. The gamepad likely has basic 2 channel sound perhaps downmixed from data sent from the wii u console. Prologic is a system of getting surround sound out of 2 channels like the wii has and even the super nintendo had a early version of such a system its all rubbish to be honest and not a patch on true 5.1 that the wii u now has. Remember that both the original xbox and even ps2 were offering 5.1 sound 10 years ago. It's taken Nintendo a along time to catch up with Microsoft and the PS3 already has superior sound to wii u. Sadly both the home cinema system in my living room and the one upstairs with the projector only have optical or analogue coaxial inputs for 5.1 sound so no wii u 5.1 sound for me. I will be forced to use 2 channel prologic sound again just like the wii until I upgrade. Hopefully Nintendo will release the wii u with a coaxial or optical 5.1 sound output but as far as I know its only via hdmi.