50 replies to this topic

[GAMER1984]

http://hdwarriors.co...of-current-gen/

Let's discuss... Basically this is a lot of what we have been hearing. Modern GPU, Edram, and CPU caches if use correctly going to make beautiful games.

Since I know people are to lazy to click the link here is the quote.

“The Wii U GPU is several generations ahead of the current gen. It allows many things that were not possible on consoles before. If you develop for Wii U you have to take advantage of these possibilities, otherwise your performance is of course limited. Also your engine layout needs to be different. You need to take advantage of the large shared memory of the Wii U, the huge and very fast EDRAM section and the big CPU caches in the cores. Especially the workings of the CPU caches are very important to master. Otherwise you can lose a magnitude of power for cache relevant parts of your code. In the end the Wii U specs fit perfectly together and make a very efficient console when used right.”

[Portal]

More or less what I already thought. So pretty much hardware ahead of its time if used the right way. Otherwise you make last-gen games.

[Goodtwin]

I love that Shin'en is willing to come out and voice their opinion on this.  It also calls out developers, if your performance sucks, its probably your fault so quit blaming the hardware for your lack of ability to properly manage the cpu cache and GPU edram.  They are also basically telling us that the GPU is using HD4*** or HD5*** technology, and that its more or less a use it or lose it situation.  Its not a linear power increase, meaning that it doesnt automatically run old code better than the old hardware.  Its going to be awesome when Shin'en shows off their next game and it looks and performs better than all these third party ports. 

[routerbad]

I love that Shin'en is willing to come out and voice their opinion on this.  It also calls out developers, if your performance sucks, its probably your fault so quit blaming the hardware for your lack of ability to properly manage the cpu cache and GPU edram.  They are also basically telling us that the GPU is using HD4*** or HD5*** technology, and that its more or less a use it or lose it situation.  Its not a linear power increase, meaning that it doesnt automatically run old code better than the old hardware.  Its going to be awesome when Shin'en shows off their next game and it looks and performs better than all these third party ports. 

I don't see where you would come to the conclusion that it is HD4XXX or 5XXX, they just said several generations.  The shaders themselves are E6760 for sure, I think they are pointing out that there is a lot of custom stuff going on that you need to work at to use properly.

[DexterousGecko]

They didn't actually SAY anything. The Wii U is good. Okay, we get it, you like the Wii U. It sounds like an advertisement or something. I'll keep saying this, but until the Wii U actually SHOWS a game that is "several generations" worth of GPU ahead of the "current" gen, no one will give the Wii U any credit. I'm just tired of this PR BS that doesn't mean anything.

 

Also, this whole "if it's used right" thing, ugh. It sounds the same as PS3 last gen. Sony was trying to spin a stupid design by saying, "We wanted to make the ps3 difficult to program so people would be encouraged to experiment." BS you did Sony. You messed up on the design and you paid for it early in the consoles life. Developers know and like PCs. If you go to far away from that, it becomes difficult to port to your console, and companies will start to wonder if it's worth it. I pray the Wii U doesn't have the same problems. It has enough issues with not being "hardcore" enough.

Edited by DexterousGecko, 29 May 2013 - 10:34 AM.

[3Dude]

I love that Shin'en is willing to come out and voice their opinion on this.  It also calls out developers, if your performance sucks, its probably your fault so quit blaming the hardware for your lack of ability to properly manage the cpu cache and GPU edram.  They are also basically telling us that the GPU is using HD4*** or HD5*** technology, and that its more or less a use it or lose it situation.  Its not a linear power increase, meaning that it doesnt automatically run old code better than the old hardware.  Its going to be awesome when Shin'en shows off their next game and it looks and performs better than all these third party ports.

The 40nm 5xxx series is what I based my transistor density off of the other day.

[Goodtwin]

I don't see where you would come to the conclusion that it is HD4XXX or 5XXX, they just said several generations.  The shaders themselves are E6760 for sure, I think they are pointing out that there is a lot of custom stuff going on that you need to work at to use properly.

 

Thats fine, I just used the HD4 and HD5 as examples because they are more familiar to most people.  I agree that the shader cores looked very similar to the SIMD cores used in the E6760.  Either way, I like that they straight up say that the Wii U is more powerful.  

 

Also, this whole "if it's used right" thing, ugh. It sounds the same as PS3 last gen. Sony was trying to spin a stupid design by saying, "We wanted to make the ps3 difficult to program so people would be encouraged to experiment." BS you did Sony.

 

  

 

I see what your saying, but I disagree.  If we were to judge the PS3 based on early cruddy games, then the PS3 would be considered a crappy performer, but after games like Killzone 3 and Uncharted showcased what the hardware can actually do, then it became apparent that the hardware is indeed far more capable than early software showed, and when programmed correctly, it performs to a very high level.  I dont expect the Wii U to be a huge brain buster, but its obvious that porting 360 code to Wii U is not very efficient. 

[Cloud Windfoot Omega]

man  neogaf  is making themselves look like tools over this. Make of that what you will.

[routerbad]

They didn't actually SAY anything. The Wii U is good. Okay, we get it, you like the Wii U. It sounds like an advertisement or something. I'll keep saying this, but until the Wii U actually SHOWS a game that is "several generations" worth of GPU ahead of the "current" gen, no one will give the Wii U any credit. I'm just tired of this PR BS that doesn't mean anything.

 

Also, this whole "if it's used right" thing, ugh. It sounds the same as PS3 last gen. Sony was trying to spin a stupid design by saying, "We wanted to make the ps3 difficult to program so people would be encouraged to experiment." BS you did Sony. You messed up on the design and you paid for it early in the consoles life. Developers know and like PCs. If you go to far away from that, it becomes difficult to port to your console, and companies will start to wonder if it's worth it. I pray the Wii U doesn't have the same problems. It has enough issues with not being "hardcore" enough.

It already does, Nintendo Land showcases several features and techniques that are simply not possible on last generation hardware.  The most prominent being OIT.

Thats fine, I just used the HD4 and HD5 as examples because they are more familiar to most people.  I agree that the shader cores looked very similar to the SIMD cores used in the E6760.  Either way, I like that they straight up say that the Wii U is more powerful.  

 

  

 

I see what your saying, but I disagree.  If we were to judge the PS3 based on early cruddy games, then the PS3 would be considered a crappy performer, but after games like Killzone 3 and Uncharted showcased what the hardware can actually do, then it became apparent that the hardware is indeed far more capable than early software showed, and when programmed correctly, it performs to a very high level.  I dont expect the Wii U to be a huge brain buster, but its obvious that porting 360 code to Wii U is not very efficient. 

Agreed 100%.

 

Also, Sony DID want developers to experiment to see what they could do with what, at the time, was one of the most advanced processor architectures in the world.

[TheUltimateWaddleDee]

They didn't actually SAY anything. The Wii U is good. Okay, we get it, you like the Wii U. It sounds like an advertisement or something. I'll keep saying this, but until the Wii U actually SHOWS a game that is "several generations" worth of GPU ahead of the "current" gen, no one will give the Wii U any credit. I'm just tired of this PR BS that doesn't mean anything.

Also, this whole "if it's used right" thing, ugh. It sounds the same as PS3 last gen. Sony was trying to spin a stupid design by saying, "We wanted to make the ps3 difficult to program so people would be encouraged to experiment." BS you did Sony. You messed up on the design and you paid for it early in the consoles life. Developers know and like PCs. If you go to far away from that, it becomes difficult to port to your console, and companies will start to wonder if it's worth it. I pray the Wii U doesn't have the same problems. It has enough issues with not being "hardcore" enough.

Well, Shin'en's game for Wii U Nano Assult Neo looks better than just about every game on PS360, Trine 2's Goblin Menace DLC isn't on PS360 due to it having to be scaled down to even run, while the Wii U does, Nintendoland does a lot that PS360 can't do (ask people like Routerbad and 3Dude about that; I don't know nearly enough about this stuff), and Need for Speed has PC textures, lighting, and draw distance.

[MorbidGod]

They didn't actually SAY anything. The Wii U is good. Okay, we get it, you like the Wii U. It sounds like an advertisement or something. I'll keep saying this, but until the Wii U actually SHOWS a game that is "several generations" worth of GPU ahead of the "current" gen, no one will give the Wii U any credit. I'm just tired of this PR BS that doesn't mean anything.

Also, this whole "if it's used right" thing, ugh. It sounds the same as PS3 last gen. Sony was trying to spin a stupid design by saying, "We wanted to make the ps3 difficult to program so people would be encouraged to experiment." BS you did Sony. You messed up on the design and you paid for it early in the consoles life. Developers know and like PCs. If you go to far away from that, it becomes difficult to port to your console, and companies will start to wonder if it's worth it. I pray the Wii U doesn't have the same problems. It has enough issues with not being "hardcore" enough.

This can get tiring. Maybe I should copy paste a generic response to these type of posts.

[/sarcasm]

Anyway, I digress. You cherry picked PS3, so let me do a little cherry picking of my own.

I remember when the 360 came out people harped on Rare's PD Zero for looking not much better than original Xbox. That nothing at launch showed the system and what it can do. So I guess the 360 was doomed, and it isn't capable of running games like Gears of Wars, Halo 3 & 4, Assassin Creed III and Watch Fogs, right?

Look, every generation we have that one game for a console that really shows what games will look like. Gears of Wars was that game last generation. That was a YEAR after the 360 launched. How long has the Wii U been out?

Look, this is just ludicrous that people expect end of generation level graphics at the start. With the PS4. and X1, it's possible only because developers know the hardware. But with Wii U they have to learn it's strength and weaknesses, and it's very clear listening to developers that the Wii U does better when you use it's features instead of trying to use what worked on past consoles.

[/End of Rant]

[3Dude]

man  neogaf  is making themselves look like tools over this. Make of that what you will.

Yewh they are. They have no clue what they are talking about. Shin en is only the name they use for games on nintendo products.

They also provide engine opimatization and proprietary audio tools on the free lance, and on the demo scene, they are comparable to future crew.

These five guys know more than just about anyone on any system. From the 360 to the c64.

Edited by 3Dude, 29 May 2013 - 12:36 PM.

[SoldMyWiiUAndLeftTheForums]

Finally a dev who understands the power of Wii U, this is what people like EA need to realise.

[Alex Wolfers]

If only every dev was as smart as Shin'en.

They didn't actually SAY anything. The Wii U is good. Okay, we get it, you like the Wii U. It sounds like an advertisement or something. I'll keep saying this, but until the Wii U actually SHOWS a game that is "several generations" worth of GPU ahead of the "current" gen, no one will give the Wii U any credit. I'm just tired of this PR BS that doesn't mean anything.

 

Also, this whole "if it's used right" thing, ugh. It sounds the same as PS3 last gen. Sony was trying to spin a stupid design by saying, "We wanted to make the ps3 difficult to program so people would be encouraged to experiment." BS you did Sony. You messed up on the design and you paid for it early in the consoles life. Developers know and like PCs. If you go to far away from that, it becomes difficult to port to your console, and companies will start to wonder if it's worth it. I pray the Wii U doesn't have the same problems. It has enough issues with not being "hardcore" enough.

Simply incorrect. Shin'en is a smart dev which is rare these days. And how the hell is the Wii U not hardcore? Last time I checked we have some badass games. Get your facts straight.

Edited by Rose Red, 29 May 2013 - 01:36 PM.

[Keviin]

Nano Assault does look pretty amazing.

[DexterousGecko]

This can get tiring. Maybe I should copy paste a generic response to these type of posts.

[/sarcasm]

Anyway, I digress. You cherry picked PS3, so let me do a little cherry picking of my own.

I remember when the 360 came out people harped on Rare's PD Zero for looking not much better than original Xbox. That nothing at launch showed the system and what it can do. So I guess the 360 was doomed, and it isn't capable of running games like Gears of Wars, Halo 3 & 4, Assassin Creed III and Watch Fogs, right?

Look, every generation we have that one game for a console that really shows what games will look like. Gears of Wars was that game last generation. That was a YEAR after the 360 launched. How long has the Wii U been out?

Look, this is just ludicrous that people expect end of generation level graphics at the start. With the PS4. and X1, it's possible only because developers know the hardware. But with Wii U they have to learn it's strength and weaknesses, and it's very clear listening to developers that the Wii U does better when you use it's features instead of trying to use what worked on past consoles.

[/End of Rant]

prove me wrong friend, prove me wrong. I'll be waiting come the year anniversary to see Wii U's Gears of Wars that blows the ps360 era out of the water.

[Alex Wolfers]

prove me wrong friend, prove me wrong. I'll be waiting come the year anniversary to see Wii U's Gears of Wars that blows the ps360 era out of the water.

Here we go again. D00m galore. Routerbad makes great points. You are underestimating Nintendo due to some unkown predjudice.

Edited by Rose Red, 29 May 2013 - 02:22 PM.

[DexterousGecko]

Here we go again. D00m galore.

did you spell doom with zeroes? and doom? no, I just don't like websites claiming that something with no proof at all. In this case that the Wii U is leaps and bounds ahead of the ps360. If I saw an article that said that the xbox one was going to be the best thing to happen to gaming, I would have issues with that as well. You mistake disliking fanboyism for negativity. I have no doubt the Wii U will do fine.

[Zinix]

GAF is freaking out over this article, as always anything positive that comes on for the Wii U they want to turn it negative. 

http://www.neogaf.co...t=570625&page=2

[routerbad]

did you spell doom with zeroes? and doom? no, I just don't like websites claiming that something with no proof at all. In this case that the Wii U is leaps and bounds ahead of the ps360. If I saw an article that said that the xbox one was going to be the best thing to happen to gaming, I would have issues with that as well. You mistake disliking fanboyism for negativity. I have no doubt the Wii U will do fine.

As has already been stated, Nintendo Land is pulling off effects that are downright impossible on last generation hardware, as well as effects that were absolutely unfeasible given the performance limitations.  Not only that, its doing it on two separate screens, at the same time, from completely different viewpoints, with nary a hiccup in sight.

 

What you are looking for is not a great looking game, you are looking for a great looking photorealistic game, that shows advances over the previous two HD twins.  It will come in the form of Watch_Dogs, Splinter Cell, and other games running on brand new engines.

 

It will also happen with Retro's title, whatever it ends up being.  For now, we have great looking games that are simply ports from other systems and then we have exclusives like NanoAssault, which is amazing looking, NFS, which was able to do things the PS360 versions were not, Trine2, which is a PC port rather than a console port because it was able to handle the game better.

 

The proof is right there in front of you, you just aren't willing to look at it and accept it for what it is.