150 replies to this topic

[Soul]

The Kinect accounts for a large portion of the XBONE pricing.  The original was $150.  I wouldn't doubt this one could cost much more.

Exactly, if they sold it without Kinect it could be a lower price than the PS4.

[routerbad]

Exactly, if they sold it without Kinect it could be a lower price than the PS4.

They would have priced it right around $399.  I have no doubt they are still taking a loss on the $500 price point.

[Robotic Sunshine Commander]

please share this- thank you 3Dude, for clearing these false claims up.

 

Sadly this another thread turned to garbage by staunch defenders of Nintendo who don't have a fair bone in their body.
 
It's clear the wii u is powerful enough for the games of the type Nintendo produce and the wii u is a gpu-centric console so ideal and the performance of wii u games at E3 is entirely expected for a console that has a more modern gpu that is slightly more powerful than 360/PS3. Games written with its specification in mind will look better than 360/PS3.


At least youve given up that much.



Cartoon graphics do not push the hardware.

This is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have ever heard you say.



Take the wii for example Mario Galaxy is visually very nice but the few fps games produced for wii look utterly terrible that are trying to show the real world.

 

Corruption looked fantantistic. Production values are far more important to a games visuals than system power. Always have been always will be.


The ps4 gpu is 1800gflops compared to 350gflops approx for wii u. Clearly in the huge increase of memory and gpu performance the ps4 will be able to produce graphics far beyond wii u in realism. Cartoon graphics may not be as dramatic a difference but it really depends on the game engine.

First off Nobody knows the flop outpout of latte, and todays e3 showing with bayo2 and x has made many of them question what they previously thought, as its far outside the realm of what ps360 can produce. But even going with your loaded numbers, that puts the flop output at just 5x the wii u, smack in the ballpark of what weve been telling you this whole time. So, youve got nothing here.


We don't know the details of Monolith's game but we do know they have a reputation for extracting full performance out of the wii. We don't know how much of the movie sequences shown were pre-rendered or using the game engine. For actual gameplay we don't know the complexity of the engine or have seen the full graphics up close. This really was the only game that could claim to be beyond current-gen but we really don't have the full details. It looks a great game though although that said Xenoblade Chronicles wasn't the huge hit people were expecting with far less than 1 million copies sold world wide and that was for a console that had sold 100 million.


WOW, X is really shaking your narrative. There was nothing in X that was pre rendered.... You cant tell how to tell the difference can you? Sorry punk, thats all wii u there. And yeah, weve seen the graphics up close. You can see every vein and pore on the creatures in the world. Xenoblade chronicles was a smash hit bigger than Nintendo ever dreamed of... In NA, which is why we are getting X. Xenoblade chronicles was given a limited run, and its entire print was sold out in months, leaving people trying to buy it off of ebay for 200 bucks to this day.




There is a good unbiased article here about AMD Jaguar.
 
http://www.anandtech...4-kabini-temash
 
There is a good quote in the conclusion;
 
Jaguar is presently without competition. Intel’s current 32nm Saltwell Atom core is outdated, and nothing from ARM is quick enough. It’s no wonder that both Microsoft and Sony elected to use Jaguar as the base for their next-generation console SoCs, there simply isn’t a better option today. As Intel transitions to its 22nm Silvermont architecture however Jaguar will finally get some competition. For the next few months though, AMD will enjoy a position it hasn’t had in years: a CPU performance advantage.


Uh, yeah, those are mobile/tablet processors dude. Not that impressive to be beating. The I5 in the computer I got for my wife for 350 destroys those. Including jaguar. Its not very impressive, unless you are using a tablet.


Clearly though not that great a chip for any single threaded software on PC but in the PS4/Xbone environment its clear fully multi-threading will be utilised.
 

Simd/multithreading are heavily used in tablet microarchitectures. Powerful single thread performance requires processors that are too large, too hot, and require too big of caches for mobile. Although, Since Im already improving your argument for you  I might as well continue. Jaguar had a performance breakthrough of around 10-15% over bobcat single thread performance by providing increased edram caches... they are 1/2 and 1/4 of the size of the ones in wii u's espresso.


It's just so utterly mad and stupid to compare a console with 1GB of memory (for games), a slightly enhanced gpu and a weak cpu to ps4 which is hugely more powerful.

It still hasnt hit home yet that ps4 and espresso are using tablet cpu's has it? And no. its not 'madness' to think the games of the lesser powered system arent hopelessly behind, its pretty standard practice to have this kind of a difference in power between systems. Its as ordinary as xbox vs ps2. The only one that wasnt ordinary, was the wii, which was was 20x+ behind the 360/ps3.

The argument of diminshing returns again is another false argument from those with huge bias. They are basically trying to say the wii u isn't as weak as you think and you don't need that extra power anyway so the wii u is fine.


Diminishing returns isnt an argument, and its hilarious to hear someone try and argue that its false, its a universal law.

"The law of diminishing returns (also law of diminishing marginal returns or law of increasing relative cost) states that in all productive processes, adding more of one factor of production, while holding all others constant ("ceteris paribus"), will at some point yield lower per-unit returns.[1] The law of diminishing returns does not imply that adding more of a factor will decrease the total production, a condition known as negative returns, though in fact this is common."

THe simple fact of the matter is, you can only increase graphics so much before people cant really tell the difference and you are only wasting money. Its already happening with systems as weak as the 3ds and vita. I posted a perfectly good example with crysis and crysis 3.


The reality is the ps4 will have many games that the wii u simply isn't capable of, just like the PS3 and 360 had games the wii wasn't capable of.

Not quite. The reality is the ps4 should be capable of many games the wii u is not because its around 5x more powerful. However, that requires people to pioneer and create new things with that hardware that cant be done anywhere else, and as is very obvious by what ps4 and xbone has shown off, they have no intention whatsoever to make anything besides the same cookie cutter fps's and cinematic action games with a fresh coat of paint. They are even degrading gameplay to even LESS interactive levels, if you look at ryse, the entire game consists of nothing but qte's... WHICH YOU CAN NOT LOSE because, and I quote 'we didnt want the gamer to feel frusterated'.


I would love to say otherwise but the wii u is current gen performance overall. That doesn't mean it is not capable of superior graphics, it means as a package including its cpu performance it is in the same area and this is how wii u games perform overall.


Oooh, so sorry. If only you knew what you were talking about. See, bayonetta 2's 60 frames per second gameplay demo took place in a massive city, around the same size as the one shown in the killzone 4 demo, except, instead of slowly flying way above the city where you dont have to worry about going into detail, its zooming in between the buildings of the city at break neck speed.

See, Bayonetta 1 and god of war cant do this, because they dont have the gpu OR CPU POWER. Thats why those games on the ps3560 are in tiny environments with non interactive back drops that would look really poopy if you were to get up close to them, because they only look good at a specified distance from the camera. And most importantly , a fixed camera. Ascensions final battle attempts to do something similar, but takes place on an ocean, with nothing in it, a tiny handful of enemies, and moving incredibly slowly. The difference in power required to do what ascenision did, and what bayonetta 2 is doing at twice the frame rate is not a minor thing. Its pretty huge, and not remotely close to possible  on a 'cpu weaker than ps360'.

THe reason they cant do what bayonetta 2 does, aside from not having the gpu power to render the geometry, is because they dont have the cpu power to cull the backside faces (Thats right! Culling is a cpu task), at the speed bayonetta 2 tears through the city, and at 60 frames per sedond, twice (often over twice) the frame rate of either bayonetta 1 or god of war 3/ascension.


However this is really a mute argument anyway because the wii u simply won't be getting the games that push the boundaries of console gaming, it's not getting those games because they won't be released on wii u because of many reasons.


So.... why is the wiiu the only system to show off said type game that pushes something that hasnt been done before yet? It IS, the only game that has been stated as being a COMPLETELY SEAMLESS OPEN WORLD GAME. No loading screens, not for towns, not for buildings, not for level changes, nowhere.



The wii u is a fantastic console but its not the right choice at all if you want modern fps experiences and other major multiformat titles of the same quality as ps4 or xbone. It is not competitive in that area at all. Such games even if released on wii u may even struggle to match ps3 or 360 versions as has been the case for the majority of games previously and there is absolutely no reasons why it won't continue that way.


Modern fps gaming hasnt changed since Xbox. Nothing new is happening guy. There has been 'fish ai' since mario 64.
And YEAH, its pretty fricking obvious those ports were garbage now. There is like, no denying that anymore.



The upcoming wii u games look great and I'm looking forward to getting them but this whole argument that the wii u is competitive with ps4 or even xbone on a performance level is pure rubbish with no basis in reality. The PS3 and Xbox 360 have as much a right to claim they are competitive with PS4 and Xbone as wii u has. Let's face it most major titles are being cross developed on 360, PS3, PS4 and xbone anyway so there will be versions for all those consoles to buy where as the wii u won't be getting most of those titles.


What is this, your first generation change? There are always cross gen games, and they almost always suck. And nintendo gets left out of third party titles all the time, even when it has the more powerful hardware. Just look at all the ps2/xbox games the cube got cut out of. Its not about system power, it never has been.

If the wii u had sold well so it got versions of multi-format games no doubt we would have many months ahead analysing wii u versions and seeing how they compare but that's not happening anyway. There are only a few major projects still live and most of the other wii u titles that aren't coming from Nintendo or its first parties are looking fairly minor.


Its been out 6 months guy. Since when have NIntendo platforms EVER been a place for major western third parties anyway? They avoid them like the plauge no matter how powerful they are.

 

[Nintyfan86]

They would have priced it right around $399.  I have no doubt they are still taking a loss on the $500 price point.

Do you think they are receiving a higher licensing fee for their DRM model? This could subsidize the loss somewhat if the attach-rates hold.  

 

If they would promise backward compatibility in the future, I would be willing to get one (and if I could disconnect Kinect).

 

As it stands now, you can still get a console this year. This is very different from previous launches. I think those previous forecasts showing PC gaming growing while console market share shrunk may have had a point. Younger people are all tablets. Us old farts need buttons.  

[YoshiGamer9]

The Kinect accounts for a large portion of the XBONE pricing.  The original was $150.  I wouldn't doubt this one could cost much more.

 

So you're saying you have to pay EXTRA for the kinect 2.0?... X(

[Alianjaro]

I'd rather have a SLIGHTLY less powerful system but one that has a good reputation. XBONE is being hated a lot. I don't know if it's deserved that much.

[logitech]

I agree it could have been significantly more powerful, but I don't think it will matter much in the long run.  Even if the power gap is preventing third party ports, I suspect other factors such as poor sales would also keep the Wii U from getting third party ports.  As long as I get a handful of great first party games a year, I'll be content.

[routerbad]

Do you think they are receiving a higher licensing fee for their DRM model? This could subsidize the loss somewhat if the attach-rates hold.  

 

If they would promise backward compatibility in the future, I would be willing to get one (and if I could disconnect Kinect).

 

As it stands now, you can still get a console this year. This is very different from previous launches. I think those previous forecasts showing PC gaming growing while console market share shrunk may have had a point. Younger people are all tablets. Us old farts need buttons.  

They will be getting licensing from retail outlets that choose to implement their check in system, and will also be getting money from them when games are resold.  That could subsidize the loss somewhat.  Also, any indies that develop for them still have to pay them to publish or bring another publisher on board, and still need to pay $10k to release any updates or enhancements.

[Alex Wolfers]

We all know syks is a troll. 

 

This generation is really going to be very close when it comes to graphics. You can't really go wrong with any of the three. Hopefully in the near future we'll be discussing story, gameplay, music, art style etc...

 

 

Wishful thinking of course 

 

Very correct. This isn't really another PS3/360/Wii scenario.

[Goodtwin]

Its not like anyone is claiming the Wii U to be on par with the PS4, its not.  The idea is that the Wii U is not at such a dissadvantage like the Wii was against the 360/PS3.  The Wii U has a very large amount of edram on the GPU and a very large amount of cache on the CPU, these are critical to gettting the performance out of the Wii U.  I think that is what Shin'en was trying to stress.  If your not taking advantage of these and coding correctly, then the Wii U's performance will suffer, but that actual peak performance of the Wii U is pretty impressive.  The new Metal Gear Solid looks pretty impressive to me, a pretty large step up from X, but not nearly the same step gap that that Xenoblade had with the better looking open world 360/PS3 games.  Bayonetta 2 looks like a respectable upgrade over the original, and is running at 60fps in 720p 2AA.  Batyonetta on the 360 peaked at 360, but was constantly dipping into the low 40's, and the PS3 struggled to even run the game at a constant 30fps. 

 

Ubisoft already came out and said the investment in the Wii U launch titles was minimal other than Zombi U.  So even their best titles like Assassins Creed 3 was relatively cheap to bring to Wii U.  As long as the 360/PS3 are around, there is absolutely no "technical" limitation that hinders the Wii U from recieving ports.  Publishers may have other reasons, but its certainly not because it takes tons of money and resources to port 360/PS3 games to the Wii U.  With that being said, then why are we seeing hit and miss third party support?  Publishers have their reasons, and companies like EA may be trying to pressure Nintendo into giving them a better deal on royalty fee's by holding back thier titles this year. 

[Alex Wolfers]

Its not like anyone is claiming the Wii U to be on par with the PS4, its not.  The idea is that the Wii U is not at such a dissadvantage like the Wii was against the 360/PS3.  The Wii U has a very large amount of edram on the GPU and a very large amount of cache on the CPU, these are critical to gettting the performance out of the Wii U.  I think that is what Shin'en was trying to stress.  If your not taking advantage of these and coding correctly, then the Wii U's performance will suffer, but that actual peak performance of the Wii U is pretty impressive.  The new Metal Gear Solid looks pretty impressive to me, a pretty large step up from X, but not nearly the same step gap that that Xenoblade had with the better looking open world 360/PS3 games.  Bayonetta 2 looks like a respectable upgrade over the original, and is running at 60fps in 720p 2AA.  Batyonetta on the 360 peaked at 360, but was constantly dipping into the low 40's, and the PS3 struggled to even run the game at a constant 30fps. 

 

Ubisoft already came out and said the investment in the Wii U launch titles was minimal other than Zombi U.  So even their best titles like Assassins Creed 3 was relatively cheap to bring to Wii U.  As long as the 360/PS3 are around, there is absolutely no "technical" limitation that hinders the Wii U from recieving ports.  Publishers may have other reasons, but its certainly not because it takes tons of money and resources to port 360/PS3 games to the Wii U.  With that being said, then why are we seeing hit and miss third party support?  Publishers have their reasons, and companies like EA may be trying to pressure Nintendo into giving them a better deal on royalty fee's by holding back thier titles this year. 

Nintendo will need a good install base to bring the 3rd party devs back. The only bad thing is we most likely wont have one until Q2-Q3 2014. Thank goodness the 3DS is keeping the Wii U afloat until then.

[Goodtwin]

Nintendo will need a good install base to bring the 3rd party devs back. The only bad thing is we most likely wont have one until Q2-Q3 2014. Thank goodness the 3DS is keeping the Wii U afloat until then.

 

Yep, thats pretty much the truth.  Until the Wii U seems like an attractive platform from a business sense, then third party support will be hit and miss.  Nintendo feels confident that they can turn things around with thier first party titles later this year, so hopefully that ends up being the case and Nintendo quickly expands its userbase.  If not, the support will probably get pretty thin in 2014.  I expect Mario Kart to be the game that really takes Wii U to the mass market.  Mario 3D World and DKC will make for a strong holiday season, but It will be Mario Kart and Smash Bros that give the Wii U long term sales. 

[Alex Wolfers]

Yep, thats pretty much the truth.  Until the Wii U seems like an attractive platform from a business sense, then third party support will be hit and miss.  Nintendo feels confident that they can turn things around with thier first party titles later this year, so hopefully that ends up being the case and Nintendo quickly expands its userbase.  If not, the support will probably get pretty thin in 2014.  I expect Mario Kart to be the game that really takes Wii U to the mass market.  Mario 3D World and DKC will make for a strong holiday season, but It will be Mario Kart and Smash Bros that give the Wii U long term sales. 

Yep. The Wii U is without a doubt going to be Nintendo's slowest selling home console but when those games drop it should't have a problem playing catch up considering what the Xbone is doing to families.

[Socalmuscle]

Yep. The Wii U is without a doubt going to be Nintendo's slowest selling home console but when those games drop it should't have a problem playing catch up considering what the Xbone is doing to families.

 

Yep.

 

I bought my kid sister a 360 because her and my dad are huge Forza fans.  

 

But they live in a location without internet access. At all. NONE.

 

Guess which company won't be seeing a console in their house again... 

 

Ms would like people like that to stick with 360... during a new gen?

 

Nope. they will have to let Project Cars grow on them.  Or, if GT for PS4 is good, that will be their new Forza.

 

This is the true Microsoft.

 

They try hard and make it easy for the consumer when they are getting whooped (iPad vs. Surface, iPhone vs WP8, iTunes vs. Zune, Google vs. Bing, etc.), but when they have a strong position, they try to beat you over the head with it.  

 

People are smarter now than they were in 1998.

[Tacomywaffles]

Thats actually a different trick called instancing. You use instancing when you arent meeting the necessary performance/need to boost performance.

Typically its used for rocks or trees, or other typically non unique non noticable background assets. You can typically alter parameters, like size, or textures.... which wasnt done at all here.

Instancing speeds up performance by simply copying the same vertex data over and over and over again, instead of processing hundreds of unique sets of data.

Pikmin 3 uses instancing, but it doesnt use billboarding, according to miyamoto, each individual pikmin is controlled by its own ai.

 

 

I thought it was found out that the Xbone demos all ran on PC Hardware that is like 4-5x as powerful.

 

Does this mean the Hardware used never was maxed out to give a more realistic Xbone demo?

 

This also raises the question why they would opt for such High performance Demo stations that even ran on non AMD hardware?

 

only reason i can think of is they are gonna pull an Aliens Colonial Marines on us and make the released games look way worse than what they have shown this E3.

[Ghost]

I thought it was found out that the Xbone demos all ran on PC Hardware that is like 4-5x as powerful.

 

Does this mean the Hardware used never was maxed out to give a more realistic Xbone demo?

 

This also raises the question why they would opt for such High performance Demo stations that even ran on non AMD hardware?

 

only reason i can think of is they are gonna pull an Aliens Colonial Marines on us and make the released games look way worse than what they have shown this E3.

 

But they also could be trolling us and bring out a nvidia Xbox One which would be weird but slightly wonderful.

[3Dude]

I thought it was found out that the Xbone demos all ran on PC Hardware that is like 4-5x as powerful.
 
Does this mean the Hardware used never was maxed out to give a more realistic Xbone demo?
 
This also raises the question why they would opt for such High performance Demo stations that even ran on non AMD hardware?
 
only reason i can think of is they are gonna pull an Aliens Colonial Marines on us and make the released games look way worse than what they have shown this E3.

The powerful pc's were probably used to brute force through sloppy unoptimized code.

[Tacomywaffles]

The powerful pc's were probably used to brute force through sloppy unoptimized code.

 

Shouldn't we have seen this at sony demos as well??? According to to what i heard on epicbattleaxes podcast "the AXE Factor" Sony employes have confirmed most if not all Demos on the showfloor were running on PS4 devkits and according to epicbattleaxe the main difference is RAM due to debug tools having to run in the background.

 

They also brought up the excellent point of deception that went on at the demo booths.

It clearly stated XBOX ONE in bright glowing letters above the demo booth and the people were handed the Xbone Controllers.

When in reality people were playing on High end PCs running windows 7 (Xbone OS is supposed to be windows 8 based) where the graphics card alone costs about as much as the whole system they are supposed to represent.

[NintendoReport]

Shouldn't we have seen this at sony demos as well??? According to to what i heard on epicbattleaxes podcast "the AXE Factor" Sony employes have confirmed most if not all Demos on the showfloor were running on PS4 devkits and according to epicbattleaxe the main difference is RAM due to debug tools having to run in the background.

 

They also brought up the excellent point of deception that went on at the demo booths.

It clearly stated XBOX ONE in bright glowing letters above the demo booth and the people were handed the Xbone Controllers.

When in reality people were playing on High end PCs running windows 7 (Xbone OS is supposed to be windows 8 based) where the graphics card alone costs about as much as the whole system they are supposed to represent.

 

Why aren't they running their latest and greatest OS, Windows 8? hehehehe

Edited by Sorceror12, 19 June 2013 - 08:55 AM.

[3Dude]

Shouldn't we have seen this at sony demos as well??? According to to what i heard on epicbattleaxes podcast "the AXE Factor" Sony employes have confirmed most if not all Demos on the showfloor were running on PS4 devkits and according to epicbattleaxe the main difference is RAM due to debug tools having to run in the background.
 
They also brought up the excellent point of deception that went on at the demo booths.
It clearly stated XBOX ONE in bright glowing letters above the demo booth and the people were handed the Xbone Controllers.
When in reality people were playing on High end PCs running windows 7 (Xbone OS is supposed to be windows 8 based) where the graphics card alone costs about as much as the whole system they are supposed to represent.

Sony's ps4, and the devs making games for it appear to be much further along than Xbone in a lot of areas.

Probably hecause sony actually has a dedicated 1st party, whereas ms just dumps money on devs to buy exclusivity. Ms games studio is entirely comprised of 3rd party devs.

Id wager most of those xbone exclusives havent been exclusive very long, hence why they are running on completely different hardware than the system they are going to come out on...