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DICE: Frostbite 3 engine could be scaled for Wii U


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#41 3Dude

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 05:17 AM

I though the Wii U was more powerful than the current gen, why would Frostbite 3 have to be scaled down for the Wii U when the PS360 can run it easily?


Its being incredibly scaled down for ps360.

Compared to pc, ps4 will be scaled down, which in turn will be scaled down for xbone, which will then be scaled down for wii u.

But its not something worth thinking about, it will never happen, no matter how well the system sells (wii) or how powerful it is (gamecube).

There will never be a battlefield for nintendo systems since nintendo turned dice down for making a refractor engine based battlefield a nintendo console exclusive for the cube.

Frostbite was designed ground up for the flop heavy everything else sucks nature of ps360. Its not a good match for wii u at all.

A refractor engine 4 or 5? Built for over a decade tailoring to Nintendos hardware architecture? That would be a different story, and only in a paralell universe. Its not something worth worrying about.

Battlefield will never end up on nintendo, and there is nothing wrong with that, it just adds value to having multiple consoles.

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#42 NintendoReport

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 05:22 AM

But still the Wii U is closer to power with the XB1, shouldn't it be able to handle Frostbite without having it scaled down?

 

To be honest, I am not sure who said and when, that it would need to be scaled down. This is all hypothetical talk of course regarding Frostbite as it's not coming to Wii U anytime soon, if at all, that we know of currently.

 

I also think the word "down" seems derogatory to the Wii U. The articles I've read just in the last few minutes make no mention of scaling DOWN, just that the engine could be scaled. More of less meaning it would need to be adjusted and optimized for Wii U hardware, which makes complete sense.

 

Since the engine was not developed for Wii U specific, it would have to be scaled, just like an engine on the Wii U being used for Xbox1/PS4, it would also have to be scaled. (just an example)


Edited by Sorceror12, 27 June 2013 - 05:23 AM.

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#43 3Dude

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 05:36 AM

To be honest, I am not sure who said and when, that it would need to be scaled down. This is all hypothetical talk of course regarding Frostbite as it's not coming to Wii U anytime soon, if at all, that we know of currently.
 
I also think the word "down" seems derogatory to the Wii U. The articles I've read just in the last few minutes make no mention of scaling DOWN, just that the engine could be scaled. More of less meaning it would need to be adjusted and optimized for Wii U hardware, which makes complete sense.
 
Since the engine was not developed for Wii U specific, it would have to be scaled, just like an engine on the Wii U being used for Xbox1/PS4, it would also have to be scaled. (just an example)


Frostbite runs exclusively off of flop power, to the point of completely dismissing general processing.

This happened because dice found the ps360 were horrible at gp computing, so, the next version of refraction was scrapped, and the mantra 'if it can run on ps3, it can run on anything' was established.

All reliance on general purpose, or powerful single thread performance (wii u's strong points) was ditched in favor of splitting up into as many small 'bite' sized jobs as possible (wii u's weak point).

It will definately be scaled down, as a result it will poorly utilize the wii u hardware, and look like crap compared to other games on the system.

http://www.slideshar...-engine-2478448

In about 2 years dice plans to be as such:
80% graphics
15% simulation
4% misc
1% GAME

yeah, no, I didnt make this up. This is straight from dice. Although, ps4/xbone are about 50x weaker than dice was expecting....


Dice would need to spend 5 years or more on wii u (like they did with ps360) to get to frostbite on 360 levels of optimization. At which point the engine will be so unrecognizable as frostbite they might ws well call it something else. Its just not going to happen.

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#44 NintendoReport

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:01 AM

Frostbite runs exclusively off of flop power, to the point of completely dismissing general processing.

This happened because dice found the ps360 were horrible at gp computing, so, the next version of refraction was scrapped, and the mantra 'if it can run on ps3, it can run on anything' was established.

All reliance on general purpose, or powerful single thread performance (wii u's strong points) was ditched in favor of splitting up into as many small 'bite' sized jobs as possible (wii u's weak point).

It will definately be scaled down, as a result it will poorly utilize the wii u hardware, and look like crap compared to other games on the system.

http://www.slideshar...-engine-2478448

In about 2 years dice plans to be as such:
80% graphics
15% simulation
4% misc
1% GAME

yeah, no, I didnt make this up. This is straight from dice. Although, ps4/xbone are about 50x weaker than dice was expecting....


Dice would need to spend 5 years or more on wii u (like they did with ps360) to get to frostbite on 360 levels of optimization. At which point the engine will be so unrecognizable as frostbite they might ws well call it something else. Its just not going to happen.

 

 

Explains everything, thanks. So in shorter words, Frostbite is a POS


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#45 3Dude

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:09 AM

Explains everything, thanks. So in shorter words, Frostbite is a POS


For anything involving actual gamecode or ai... yeah its pretty crap. Theres a reason the big new feature they are touting luxo or luvo-whatevs is nothing but entirely scripted events and enviro damage.

For graphics its pretty awesome. Also, battlefield is multiplayer game, and even though sp is being tacked on and it sucks and no one wants it... You dont really need strong game/ai code for mp.

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#46 GAMER1984

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:38 AM

Aint that the truth. Thank goodness for monolith soft and a straight from left field stupid good looking mario kart. (seriously? Mario kart? Never saw that coming)


Oh, and stealth pikmin 3 overhaul.
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Totally agree! Mmario kart looks F'N amazing! Like they really should have pushed for that to be released this year. X will be the first EVER RPG I purchase and plan on playing... It looks lovely.

#47 Portal

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:54 AM

So Battlefront U could be possible if WiiU starts selling well? :D


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#48 Happy Monk

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:56 AM

What worries me about all this is that EA have said that pretty much every one of their games will run off Frostbite 3...


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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:05 AM

What worries me about all this is that EA have said that pretty much every one of their games will run off Frostbite 3...

 

Well, only true for part. Their sports games are running Ignite


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#50 GAMER1984

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:27 AM

To tell you the truth there isn't ONE EA game I want as a Wii U owner. And the only 3rd party gamme I want is NBA2K14... Very sad that isn't coming to Wii U.

#51 MorbidGod

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:52 AM

To tell you the truth there isn't ONE EA game I want as a Wii U owner. And the only 3rd party gamme I want is NBA2K14... Very sad that isn't coming to Wii U.


I do want Need for Speed, but it's at the bottom of my list.
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#52 EvilMoogle

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 10:27 AM

Doubt it but oh well... their loss

 

We'll just have to wait and see. 



#53 lucario23

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:14 PM

So Battlefront U could be possible if WiiU starts selling well? :D


My guess, as someone else on this forum has already said, is that battlefront is the reason EA said they had projects in line for Wii u. Disney and Nintendo work well together and Disney basically is strong-arming EA into making Battlefront work. They have 3 years-ish assuming a full development cycle to get it all running. Just think, Disney could be the reason Frostbite gets scaled for Wii U! This is just a guess though and their games running Ignite could've what EA us referring to.

Also, has anyone noticed how Nintendo is SLOWLY, but STEADILY gaining third party support? SEGA and Platinum are basically second party at this point. Ubisoft could will keep pumping out support if their games sell well (really wish i had the money for them right now) Warner bros is on board with scribblenauts and Arkham Origins. That's actually much better than what Wii had last generation. I really like this idea of bringing developers in gradually. If this next wave of third party games are good quality (except slightly graphically) as next gen releases Nintendo doesn't need every third party game out there now.

In short, people said Nintendo needed to play catch up this generation and it seems like they are starting to, they are just doing it slowly and steadily.

#54 Zinix

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:44 PM

The one game from EA that seems like it would be unique is Battlefield 4, especially with gamepad controls.


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#55 Desert Punk

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 03:04 AM

Wii u seems competitive with regard ps3 and 360 in gflops. Don't see why that would be an issue for wii u. The predicted 352 gflops performance of the wii u gpu and the amount from the processor still puts it in the same real world ballpark area of 360 and PS3 who are both at about 400 when you combine gpu and cpu. Assuming the code is written to fully optimise all available resources that surely can't be the reason. Frostbite 3 is viewed as a cpu intensive game engine and that is clearly indicating integer or combined integer/floating point performance.

 

I think people need to move on from believing the wii u is hard to develop for and has some strange specification that only certain developers can exploit. The wii u is what it is, a console with a capable gpu above current gen standards but with a cpu arrangement below it. Even if the wii u sells incredibly well at christmas and EA takes the time to optimise frostbite to the wii u it will only result in games of the same standard as 360/PS3 approximately and will likely have less online functionality.

 

Lets face it, its no big deal. Most of us will likely be getting a PS4 or possibly Xbone for such games or have an existing ps3/360 for the same cut down versions like the wii u would have had.

 

For ps4/xbone owners who don't buy a wii u they will miss out on some truly terrific exclusive wii u games.

 

The wii was a hopeless console for fps and hardcore gaming too. I played through games like the conduit and the horrible cut down versions of call of duty etc and most were similar to ps2. The older original xbox was far better with games like Halo, Far Cry (decent versions), Burnout etc. The original xbox had true 5.1 sound, larger and more detailed areas. It was a better gaming experience. The wii had strengths in different gaming experiences.

 

I'm just making the point even if Frostbite was scaled to the wii u its unlikely many wii u owners would buy those games. Similar games sold poorly on wii and its likely would sell even worse on wii u due to the lower market share. They would probably represent poor value too, missing many features.



#56 MorbidGod

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 03:45 AM

Wii u seems competitive with regard ps3 and 360 in gflops. Don't see why that would be an issue for wii u. The predicted 352 gflops performance of the wii u gpu and the amount from the processor still puts it in the same real world ballpark area of 360 and PS3 who are both at about 400 when you combine gpu and cpu. Assuming the code is written to fully optimise all available resources that surely can't be the reason. Frostbite 3 is viewed as a cpu intensive game engine and that is clearly indicating integer or combined integer/floating point performance.

I think people need to move on from believing the wii u is hard to develop for and has some strange specification that only certain developers can exploit. The wii u is what it is, a console with a capable gpu above current gen standards but with a cpu arrangement below it. Even if the wii u sells incredibly well at christmas and EA takes the time to optimise frostbite to the wii u it will only result in games of the same standard as 360/PS3 approximately and will likely have less online functionality.

Lets face it, its no big deal. Most of us will likely be getting a PS4 or possibly Xbone for such games or have an existing ps3/360 for the same cut down versions like the wii u would have had.

For ps4/xbone owners who don't buy a wii u they will miss out on some truly terrific exclusive wii u games.

The wii was a hopeless console for fps and hardcore gaming too. I played through games like the conduit and the horrible cut down versions of call of duty etc and most were similar to ps2. The older original xbox was far better with games like Halo, Far Cry (decent versions), Burnout etc. The original xbox had true 5.1 sound, larger and more detailed areas. It was a better gaming experience. The wii had strengths in different gaming experiences.

I'm just making the point even if Frostbite was scaled to the wii u its unlikely many wii u owners would buy those games. Similar games sold poorly on wii and its likely would sell even worse on wii u due to the lower market share. They would probably represent poor value too, missing many features.


That's exactly the problem. Sales has nothing to do with it. At least sales isn't the main/only factor. The big reason is that EA typically doesn't do well on Nintendo platforms, even worse than other third parties.
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#57 3Dude

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 04:56 AM

Wii u seems competitive with regard ps3 and 360 in gflops. Don't see why that would be an issue for wii u. The predicted 352 gflops performance of the wii u gpu and the amount from the processor still puts it in the same real world ballpark area of 360 and PS3 who are both at about 400 when you combine gpu and cpu. Assuming the code is written to fully optimise all available resources that surely can't be the reason. Frostbite 3 is viewed as a cpu intensive game engine and that is clearly indicating integer or combined integer/floating point performance.
 
I think people need to move on from believing the wii u is hard to develop for and has some strange specification that only certain developers can exploit. The wii u is what it is, a console with a capable gpu above current gen standards but with a cpu arrangement below it. Even if the wii u sells incredibly well at christmas and EA takes the time to optimise frostbite to the wii u it will only result in games of the same standard as 360/PS3 approximately and will likely have less online functionality.
 
Lets face it, its no big deal. Most of us will likely be getting a PS4 or possibly Xbone for such games or have an existing ps3/360 for the same cut down versions like the wii u would have had.
 
For ps4/xbone owners who don't buy a wii u they will miss out on some truly terrific exclusive wii u games.
 
The wii was a hopeless console for fps and hardcore gaming too. I played through games like the conduit and the horrible cut down versions of call of duty etc and most were similar to ps2. The older original xbox was far better with games like Halo, Far Cry (decent versions), Burnout etc. The original xbox had true 5.1 sound, larger and more detailed areas. It was a better gaming experience. The wii had strengths in different gaming experiences.
 
I'm just making the point even if Frostbite was scaled to the wii u its unlikely many wii u owners would buy those games. Similar games sold poorly on wii and its likely would sell even worse on wii u due to the lower market share. They would probably represent poor value too, missing many features.


Actually, frostbite is entirely gpu intensive. In fact, it is so reliant on gpu, and SOOOOOO completely non cpu intensive dice specfically said they dont even NEED a cpu.

In fact, pretty much every single thing you have attempted to make up here has been directly contradicted by devs.... First in the presentation from dice themselves I posted which was the foundation of my post before you entered. (try reading first next time, it does wonders).

And the rest of it from the one devs ignorant comment you championed for months on end ignoring everyone and everything else.... Who actually got his hands on a wii u devkit and admitted he was wrong.

His specific words were 'the wii u hardware architecture is very very different than last gen'.

Also, you need to learn the difference between production values and system power. Wii destroyed xbox in every single area except programmable shaders. There is no og xbox game that can touch wii games that had the same time and effort put into them in 'level size' and 'detail' (protip, tiny indy devs like hv dont have the same time and money to put in their games as giant publishing houses like ea) and crappy secondhand ports dont have the same production values as flagship games on the xbox.

Try reading before making up your narratives next time. Its no fun when you your story is immediately proven wrong before it can even be contemplated.

Seriously:
Desert punk 'Frostbite 3 is super cpu intensive'

DICE: 'General processing is so worthless to us and frostbite, we dont even NEED a cpu!'

come on guy. Stop just making crap up.

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#58 ChrizAkaTheMole

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:27 AM

Disney likes Nintendo. Disney own star wars. Please be Battlefront WiiU edtion! please dear god let this happen. I loved battlefront series and Battlefront with COD style splitscreen on wii (player 2 uses tv player 1 uses gamepad screen) would just be too good.



#59 Goodtwin

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:43 AM

DICE: 'General processing is so worthless to us and frostbite, we dont even NEED a cpu!'

 

 

Now that is some interesting info right there.  GPU's are very efficient, and to be honest the increases in performance has advanced quicker and for less money than CPU's have.  So when your primary market is consoles, and it was pretty much a given that they would have some pretty powerful GPU's with much more modest CPU's, it made sense to design their engine around the GPU. 

 

With that said, there are a lot of processes that have remained on the CPU for years, and for good reason, the CPU is very efficient at handling certain operations.  Even though some things like AI and Physics can be done on the GPU, many times it makes more sense to run those on the CPU because they can start to eat up a decent chunk of cycles on the GPU. 

 

I am looking forward to Shin'en's next game for Wii U.  They are very very good at looking at the hardware and really leveraging what the system does well, and avoiding any potential pitfalls.  Jet Rocket was a Wiiware game, less than 50MB in size, and as far as 3D platformers go, was only outdone by Mario Galaxy.  I can pretty much gauratee that their next game will use about every modern graphics trick that the Wii U's GPU has in its arsenal, and will be making efficient use of all three cpu cores. 



#60 3Dude

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:19 AM

Now that is some interesting info right there.  GPU's are very efficient, and to be honest the increases in performance has advanced quicker and for less money than CPU's have.  So when your primary market is consoles, and it was pretty much a given that they would have some pretty powerful GPU's with much more modest CPU's, it made sense to design their engine around the GPU. 
 
With that said, there are a lot of processes that have remained on the CPU for years, and for good reason, the CPU is very efficient at handling certain operations.  Even though some things like AI and Physics can be done on the GPU, many times it makes more sense to run those on the CPU because they can start to eat up a decent chunk of cycles on the GPU. 
 
I am looking forward to Shin'en's next game for Wii U.  They are very very good at looking at the hardware and really leveraging what the system does well, and avoiding any potential pitfalls.  Jet Rocket was a Wiiware game, less than 50MB in size, and as far as 3D platformers go, was only outdone by Mario Galaxy.  I can pretty much gauratee that their next game will use about every modern graphics trick that the Wii U's GPU has in its arsenal, and will be making efficient use of all three cpu cores.


Dice doesnt really care about ai, to the point that 1% or less of their engines work load is actual game code like ai. They would rather waste vector instructions running on scaler isa than deal with it.

It makes sense, their big game is mainly a multiplayer experience, with tacked on single player, and their big show peice simply uses the gratuitous processing power to make model swapping for damage effects more grandious.... but its all scripted. Instead of investing in an ai solution like digital molecular matter or whatever proprietary solution nintendo uses.

I think the most important information to take away from this is how incredibly weak the ps4 and xbone ended up compared to what 3rd parties were expecting.

We knew epic was dissapointed, but we didnt know by how much.

In 2010/11 Dice expected the ps4 and Xbone to be around 50 teraflops coming out in 2015 (an actual gen jump).... see slide 49 of the frostbite presentation i linked.

They ended up 40-50x weaker than what Dice was expecting. Compared to that, the difference between wii u and ps4 is microscopic.

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