82 replies to this topic

[GAMER1984]

Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze[45]
Dr. Luigi
nes remix 1 and 2
game and wario
Just dance wii u - Yes, this was published by Nintendo, so, this one is on the list, though whether you add just dance 2014, and just dance kids is up to you.

Mario and sonic at the olympic games
New super mario bros u
New super luigi bros u
Nintendo land
Sing party
Pokemon rumble U
Super mario 3d world (yes, it is a 2d mario, just in 3d, it appeals to the simplistic, easily intimidated 2d mario players, as anyone waiting for an entry in an actual 3d mario style game will quickly tell you)

Wii fit u
Wii party u
Wii kareoke U
Wii sports club U


oh yeah... its just 2 games. Oh wait. No its not. The wii u is a veritable clogged toilet overflowing with party games, singing games, mini game collections, 2d sidescrollers, and other casual fare.

When you add in 3rd parties, what little 3rd party we have, the ratio gets much, much worse.

90% of the titles available on the system, offer nothing attractive whatsoever, to the people who own a wii u, or who WOULD own a wii u.

That last 10% is FANTASTIC quality stuff. But even if it was the greatest game ever made, it cant be expected to be replayed over and over and over again for the next year or two straight and keep someone happily satisfied. Its just not possible.

Which is the EXACT situation wii u owners are in. RIGHT NOW.

However, f you take that gigantic list most of which was casual garbage no one bought, and split it in half, all of the sudden, those wii u owners have 3-4x the games to play through over the next year or two, instead of a gigantic pile of NOTHING.

 

Sing and game and wario should have never seen the light of day. Can't forgive Nintendo for those. You basically could have put anything out beside those and it has a better chance of selling. I still just dont see that this management gets it. Iwata scares me at this point. They have been "saying" the right things lately but we need to see results... and quick. like other people have said the recent Nintendo direct featured 3ds "WAY" too much. It like they don't realize the WiiU is the one not selling well. 

[Nintyfan86]

This is great list and Id love to dive in a little deeper.


The system launched without a real 'next gen' value proposition compared to existing competition. This is only based on launch games.


- This is true. When we look into it further, we start to see why. Nintendo released a next gen system, capable of captivating the core gamer, people who want a system powerful enough to do more with franchises like Zelda, 64/sunshine/galaxy style mario, Metroid, New IP's along these lines, capable of giving a mentally stimulating adventure of epic proportions.
ANd then they proceeded to completely ignore this audience.

They ignored this audience for the 120 million wii/ds audience.... Who bought the wii and ds because they liked the simplistic fun, of a non demanding, non investive gameplay experience, and they didnt care diddly squat about graphics.

But wait, thas audience doesnt care about system power increases, which was the entire selling point and reason for existance of the wii u. Whoops. These people only wanted a simple, non challenging, non demanding, time wasters that require no mental investment, something they can now get for 'free' through a device they need to have for personal/work life. A mobile phone.

Meanwhile, Nintendo is devoting 90% of its time and resources to an audience that will never come over, while completely ignoring the audience that bought the wii u for what it could do for real games.


Third parties were given the floor, like with the 3ds, yet failed to deliver.

-Surprise, surprise. Unprecendented partnerships indeed.

Advertising was confusing and delayed until quality software was available.

-Advertising is still 'confusing', barely anyone outside the internet knows what a wii u is. And the quality software is just not enough.

If you look at the split between games like Nintendo land, or nsmbwu, or nsmb3dw, or wii fit, games meant to attract the casual crowd whos scared of deeper gaming experiences, vs say, pikmin 3, or tw101, you will find damn near a 10-1 split in favor of people who have moved on to cell phones.

Just imagine, IMAGINE, if Nintendo had decided to say, make a 50-50 split instead. Every game, of every genre you like currently on wii u, would have 2-3 more games for you to play RIGHT NOW.

The looming PS4/Xbone launch created a 'Dreamcast' effect.-I cant even give this one to nintendo. Nintendo did this to themselves. If they had come out prepared for this, prepared for the Nintendo faithful, instead of ignoring them, We would have first gen first gen Zelda's (remember how much launching with a zelda helped wii?), then BAM pikmin 3, then BAM tw101, bam metroid, oh no, maybe some downtime? BAM hd rerelease of windwaker, bam mario kart, bam smash.

Nobody would give a crap about ps4/xbones pathetic launch line up, because they were being SATISFIED, except the ones who were going to buy one no matter what.

Instead, Nintendo has a starving pissed off customer/fanbase tired of being ignored for no shows.

Quality software debuted when the market was gearing up for the launches of the other systems.

-True, and still, not nearly enough. Nintendo was still downplaying games for people who like investing their time in videogames, in favor of people who just want to waste some time, at a ratio of about 10-1.

Said software has a split priority-Wii Fit/Sports/Play/etc. were never going to drive the install base that has moved on to other formats.

-Oh, you... you... E-hug.


Man, any attempts at using almost any manner of formatting are just not working out for me today.

It is impossible to disagree with anything on this list. A trend is very similar to the product life cycle. The Wii had a great introduction and growth stage. At the maturity stage, or rather, at the end of the growth stage, you had Move and Kinect enter the market. The Wii entered the maturity stage, and Kinect became the new 'it' thing. Then we had the decline of the Wii's casual trend appeal, which went quickly (it seemed like watching Sony's copy again in reference to the rate of decline). Kinect also declined, or rather, the trend died. 

 

You, very astutely, pointed out that the audience for games like Rusty's Baseball do not want a dedicated game machine. They also do not want the experiences we want (Assault Android Cactus is my idea of QOL improvement). You hammered the nail on the head. I have another post quoted from you below, which shares similarity with other comments I intended to make here.  

 

I don't 100% agree with all these statements. Specifically, the statement that Nintendo is focusing on the casual gamer. I would argue, that they haven't been focusing on any market and that explains why we don't have any ads. They don't know who to target.

At least, that's how I see it

Personally, I think they predicted an 'Iphone effect'. Casuals buy it to have the latest version, and core gamers do the same to have the latest and greatest. Children get it for Mario, and everyone makes money. 

 

The evidence is in the lack of reinvestment in R&D. Six years with the Wii and they are having trouble with HD graphics. I think it is more like the belief of having more time being built into the strategy, combined with the thought of an instant, large, install base generating a similar out pouring of third party support in the first year. 

 

This is the result of 'misreading the market'. 

 

Maybe, if you are looking at advertising. But since they basically HAVE nothing to look at in that department, if you look at the games instead, you will find for every game like say, pikmin 3, or the wonderful 101, you will find 10 games like nintendo land, or nsmbu, or wii fit or wii party or just dance etc.

Its pretty obvious who they were targeting.

You can also tell by the demographics they cater to in their overall corporate strategy. A game like Mario will get tons of promotion. Wii Fit got a forced free trial (in the download sense). Meanwhile, Wonderful 101 is sent to die. 

 

Also, the online infrastructure and eshop design is laid out for the same person that uses the Itunes store. Well, my a dumber version of that person. 

 

Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze[45]
Dr. Luigi
nes remix 1 and 2
game and wario
Just dance wii u - Yes, this was published by Nintendo, so, this one is on the list, though whether you add just dance 2014, and just dance kids is up to you.

Mario and sonic at the olympic games
New super mario bros u
New super luigi bros u
Nintendo land
Sing party
Pokemon rumble U
Super mario 3d world (yes, it is a 2d mario, just in 3d, it appeals to the simplistic, easily intimidated 2d mario players, as anyone waiting for an entry in an actual 3d mario style game will quickly tell you)

Wii fit u
Wii party u
Wii kareoke U
Wii sports club U


oh yeah... its just 2 games. Oh wait. No its not. The wii u is a veritable clogged toilet overflowing with party games, singing games, mini game collections, 2d sidescrollers, and other casual fare.

When you add in 3rd parties, what little 3rd party we have, the ratio gets much, much worse.

90% of the titles available on the system, offer nothing attractive whatsoever, to the people who own a wii u, or who WOULD own a wii u.

That last 10% is FANTASTIC quality stuff. But even if it was the greatest game ever made, it cant be expected to be replayed over and over and over again for the next year or two straight and keep someone happily satisfied. Its just not possible.

Which is the EXACT situation wii u owners are in. RIGHT NOW.

However, f you take that gigantic list most of which was casual garbage no one bought, and split it in half, all of the sudden, those wii u owners have 3-4x the games to play through over the next year or two, instead of a gigantic pile of NOTHING.

We know of MK 8, Smash, X, Bayonetta, DK TF, Yarn Yoshi, and Fire Emblem (if it isn't canceled). There may be more, but that is all I know of (and the plethora of indie games that be awesome (Shovel Knight!). Oh, and Sonic Boom, which looks like Uncharted: Sonic to me. 

 

Seven games. However, they all will not be out this year. Realistically, we see 5 of these. I am in complete agreement with your point, as Metroid, Star Fox, Wave Race, Battalion Wars, etc. goes on the back burner to fund the casual stuff you describe. Imagine if Wii U was the must have accessory console. It would be with what your describing.

[MorbidGod]

Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze[45]
Dr. Luigi
nes remix 1 and 2
game and wario
Just dance wii u - Yes, this was published by Nintendo, so, this one is on the list, though whether you add just dance 2014, and just dance kids is up to you.

Mario and sonic at the olympic games
New super mario bros u
New super luigi bros u
Nintendo land
Sing party
Pokemon rumble U
Super mario 3d world (yes, it is a 2d mario, just in 3d, it appeals to the simplistic, easily intimidated 2d mario players, as anyone waiting for an entry in an actual 3d mario style game will quickly tell you)

Wii fit u
Wii party u
Wii kareoke U
Wii sports club U


oh yeah... its just 2 games. Oh wait. No its not. The wii u is a veritable clogged toilet overflowing with party games, singing games, mini game collections, 2d sidescrollers, and other casual fare.

When you add in 3rd parties, what little 3rd party we have, the ratio gets much, much worse.

90% of the titles available on the system, offer nothing attractive whatsoever, to the people who own a wii u, or who WOULD own a wii u.

That last 10% is FANTASTIC quality stuff. But even if it was the greatest game ever made, it cant be expected to be replayed over and over and over again for the next year or two straight and keep someone happily satisfied. Its just not possible.

Which is the EXACT situation wii u owners are in. RIGHT NOW.

However, f you take that gigantic list most of which was casual garbage no one bought, and split it in half, all of the sudden, those wii u owners have 3-4x the games to play through over the next year or two, instead of a gigantic pile of NOTHING.

So, maybe the definition of casual games is different for you and me. I don't consider the Mario 3D World and Donkey Kong or the Sonic and Mario at Olympics casual games. Just like I don't consider DK Country Mario 64 and Mario Strikers a casual game.

And most of those games you listed I haven't even heard of. Are they all released?

[3Dude]

So, maybe the definition of casual games is different for you and me. I don't consider the Mario 3D World and Donkey Kong or the Sonic and Mario at Olympics casual games. Just like I don't consider DK Country Mario 64 and Mario Strikers a casual game.

And most of those games you listed I haven't even heard of. Are they all released?

Yes, they are all released.

2d platformers (and in this case, sm3dland) are casual games, whilst marios like mario 64 are not. This came straight from shiguru miyamotos mouth as well, I will provide a summary first, and then the actual quotes. And this needs to be stated first and foremost, being a casual game is not a declaration of quality, just of game design and purpose.

Its actually pretty obvious, mario 64 is actually NOT a platformer, like a 2d mario is. Its an adventure game. The difference comes in how the game is designed, as succinctly stated by Shiggy himself: 3d mario's like mario 64 are too intimidating, too daunting for casual players to try, mario 64 is an adventure game, when you enter a level, you have to find a star that can be hidden anywhere. In 2d mario, and 3dworld, you go from the beginning of the stage, and head right until you reach the flag pole. Thus, 3dworld is the 'missing link' that will get casuals to play a 3dmario.

Miyamoto: "When we made Super Mario 3D Land, we thoroughly discussed what the definitive difference was with the 2D New Super Mario series4, and what they shared in common. This time, we pushed ahead further with that concept-the concept of making a 3D home console Super Mario game that people who like the New Super Mario games can also enjoy. "

3dworld was specifically targeted at people who would play 2d marios, but not mario 64 style.

Hayashida: "We have worked on 3D Super Mario games the whole time from Super Mario Sunshine2 to Super Mario Galaxy 2. Usually, you would just move Super Mario Galaxy to the Nintendo 3DS system the way it is, but I thought, "Would that really be all right?" So the first thing I said to the team was, "Let's reset." "

They SPECIFICALLY aknowledge they are not trying to appeal to the established userbase for the mario 64 style games. They dont want the 7-10 million 3d mario fans, they want the 20-40 million who will by 2d style marios.

Hayashida: "I live a few stations away from the station nearest from my home to the company's, so at first I thought I should aim for light courses that you could clear in about that time and stop playing whenever you got off the train."

They specifically mention removing the need for player investment from the game.

Iwata "That's a big difference with the Super Mario Galaxy series."

They specifically state this is a big difference compared to games like galaxy/64. They are targeting casual design.

Hayashida "Yes. To me, Super Mario Galaxy 2 is like the Manchu Han Imperial Feast."

The analogy to food is spot on, casual games, with low entry barriers, and no investment/commitment requirements, are very much like small snacks. Casuals can live off of small snacks no problem. Core gamers enjoy snacks, a little candy, some cheese poofs, its good, its fun. But we cannot survive off of snacks, and it is very clear we are starving.

Dont take my word for it.

"It's the kind of game that says, "There's all this laid out before you, so eat whatever you want!" To eat it all takes hours, so when you finish eating, your stomach is full. We put in everything that had built up since Super Mario Sunshine and made Super Mario Galaxy 2 to be a game that has everything."

"Yes. So this time, I wanted to make a compact game that, rather than the Manchu Han Imperial Feast, was lighter, like a hamburger you could just gobble down. I decided to start thinking from there."

This, is the design mindset for casual games. Snacks, you can gobble down, and then leave. There is no investment.

You can play for 10 minutes, have a gaming session, and stop, because you really have no investment to continue. You didnt anything new, nothing interesting has been revewaled, their isnt anything you have to know what happens, there are no permanent power ups for you to investigate on uncharted areas of the world. Ten minutes can be just as good as an hour. There is no investment.

So, lets look at these games.

Mario and sonic at the olympics. Well, its a minigame collection. The very definition of a casual game design. Snack sized gaming bites.

2d mario, you go level by level, beat one level, you are allowed to move to the next spot on the map. One level is just as good as 10, if you stop after just 2 levels you arent going to need to remember where you stopped or where you were going. Snack sized gaming bites.

Mario strikers, a sports game. Played by matches, matches are a few minutes each. Snack sized gaming bites.

Core gamers, people who play zelda, mario, xenoblade, etc, look SPECIFICALLY for that worthwhile mental investment. Nintendo, has been SPECIFICALLY ignoring them. You can tell as much just listening to what they have to say.

Hayashida: "Another task that arose because of Super Mario Galaxy 2 was the divide between fans of 2D Super Mario and fans of 3D Super Mario. "

They KNOW mario 64 style players, and 2d style mario players are NOT the same people.

No, they seriously KNOW, im not putting words in their mouth.

"Yes, there are people who say, "I play 2D Super Mario, but not 3D Super Mario. The reason I suggested including the instructional DVD called Super Mario Galaxy 2 for Beginners3 with Super Mario Galaxy 2 was because the distance was growing between people who were familiar with 3D Super Mario and those who weren't, and many were saying "I can't play those!" before they had even played a 3D Super Mario game. That's really too bad for people like you who have worked so earnestly on Super Mario in 3D."

They Know 3d mario players will play 2d mario, but 2d mario players wont take the time to learn how to play 3d mario. WHat they didnt know was how much abuse those core gamers could take, how long they could starve on gaming snacks, 'junk food' before theyve had enough. Hopefully, they now know. Because the casuals, have been complete no shows. And NOT for lack of quality games targeted at them. They dont CARE about quality, because they dont look for any manner of investment, just something to waste the time.

Nintendo has made it very clear, what they consider casual, and what they consider core games. Core games are feasts, that you play until full. Casual games, are bite sized snacks you can gobble down, and leave at any time.

Nintendo, has made it very clear, that 2d mario, and Mario 3d world and land, of their own purposefull design, are casual games, targeted at the audience who wont buy the wii u. While the people who HAVE bought wii u's, are left starving scavenging scraps of junk food between meals every six months.

[Nintyfan86]

Yes, they are all released.

2d platformers (and in this case, sm3dland) are casual games, whilst marios like mario 64 are not. This came straight from shiguru miyamotos mouth as well, I will provide a summary first, and then the actual quotes. And this needs to be stated first and foremost, being a casual game is not a declaration of quality, just of game design and purpose.

Its actually pretty obvious, mario 64 is actually NOT a platformer, like a 2d mario is. Its an adventure game. The difference comes in how the game is designed, as succinctly stated by Shiggy himself: 3d mario's like mario 64 are too intimidating, too daunting for casual players to try, mario 64 is an adventure game, when you enter a level, you have to find a star that can be hidden anywhere. In 2d mario, and 3dworld, you go from the beginning of the stage, and head right until you reach the flag pole. Thus, 3dworld is the 'missing link' that will get casuals to play a 3dmario.

Miyamoto: "When we made Super Mario 3D Land, we thoroughly discussed what the definitive difference was with the 2D New Super Mario series4, and what they shared in common. This time, we pushed ahead further with that concept-the concept of making a 3D home console Super Mario game that people who like the New Super Mario games can also enjoy. "

3dworld was specifically targeted at people who would play 2d marios, but not mario 64 style.

Hayashida: "We have worked on 3D Super Mario games the whole time from Super Mario Sunshine2 to Super Mario Galaxy 2. Usually, you would just move Super Mario Galaxy to the Nintendo 3DS system the way it is, but I thought, "Would that really be all right?" So the first thing I said to the team was, "Let's reset." "

They SPECIFICALLY aknowledge they are not trying to appeal to the established userbase for the mario 64 style games. They dont want the 7-10 million 3d mario fans, they want the 20-40 million who will by 2d style marios.

Hayashida: "I live a few stations away from the station nearest from my home to the company's, so at first I thought I should aim for light courses that you could clear in about that time and stop playing whenever you got off the train."

They specifically mention removing the need for player investment from the game.

Iwata "That's a big difference with the Super Mario Galaxy series."

They specifically state this is a big difference compared to games like galaxy/64. They are targeting casual design.

Hayashida "Yes. To me, Super Mario Galaxy 2 is like the Manchu Han Imperial Feast."

The analogy to food is spot on, casual games, with low entry barriers, and no investment/commitment requirements, are very much like small snacks. Casuals can live off of small snacks no problem. Core gamers enjoy snacks, a little candy, some cheese poofs, its good, its fun. But we cannot survive off of snacks, and it is very clear we are starving.

Dont take my word for it.

"It's the kind of game that says, "There's all this laid out before you, so eat whatever you want!" To eat it all takes hours, so when you finish eating, your stomach is full. We put in everything that had built up since Super Mario Sunshine and made Super Mario Galaxy 2 to be a game that has everything."

"Yes. So this time, I wanted to make a compact game that, rather than the Manchu Han Imperial Feast, was lighter, like a hamburger you could just gobble down. I decided to start thinking from there."

This, is the design mindset for casual games. Snacks, you can gobble down, and then leave. There is no investment.

You can play for 10 minutes, have a gaming session, and stop, because you really have no investment to continue. You didnt anything new, nothing interesting has been revewaled, their isnt anything you have to know what happens, there are no permanent power ups for you to investigate on uncharted areas of the world. Ten minutes can be just as good as an hour. There is no investment.

So, lets look at these games.

Mario and sonic at the olympics. Well, its a minigame collection. The very definition of a casual game design. Snack sized gaming bites.

2d mario, you go level by level, beat one level, you are allowed to move to the next spot on the map. One level is just as good as 10, if you stop after just 2 levels you arent going to need to remember where you stopped or where you were going. Snack sized gaming bites.

Mario strikers, a sports game. Played by matches, matches are a few minutes each. Snack sized gaming bites.

Core gamers, people who play zelda, mario, xenoblade, etc, look SPECIFICALLY for that worthwhile mental investment. Nintendo, has been SPECIFICALLY ignoring them. You can tell as much just listening to what they have to say.

Hayashida: "Another task that arose because of Super Mario Galaxy 2 was the divide between fans of 2D Super Mario and fans of 3D Super Mario. "

They KNOW mario 64 style players, and 2d style mario players are NOT the same people.

No, they seriously KNOW, im not putting words in their mouth.

"Yes, there are people who say, "I play 2D Super Mario, but not 3D Super Mario. The reason I suggested including the instructional DVD called Super Mario Galaxy 2 for Beginners3 with Super Mario Galaxy 2 was because the distance was growing between people who were familiar with 3D Super Mario and those who weren't, and many were saying "I can't play those!" before they had even played a 3D Super Mario game. That's really too bad for people like you who have worked so earnestly on Super Mario in 3D."

They Know 3d mario players will play 2d mario, but 2d mario players wont take the time to learn how to play 3d mario. WHat they didnt know was how much abuse those core gamers could take, how long they could starve on gaming snacks, 'junk food' before theyve had enough. Hopefully, they now know. Because the casuals, have been complete no shows. And NOT for lack of quality games targeted at them. They dont CARE about quality, because they dont look for any manner of investment, just something to waste the time.

Nintendo has made it very clear, what they consider casual, and what they consider core games. Core games are feasts, that you play until full. Casual games, are bite sized snacks you can gobble down, and leave at any time.

Nintendo, has made it very clear, that 2d mario, and Mario 3d world and land, of their own purposefull design, are casual games, targeted at the audience who wont buy the wii u. While the people who HAVE bought wii u's, are left starving scavenging scraps of junk food between meals every six months.

Damn, Checkmate. This is why your the forum MVP. 

 

Anyway, this post makes it clear to everyone-Nintendo has been trying to please an audience that does not support this industry from a complete perspective. What do I mean by that?

 

Bayonetta will release and probably bomb in contrast to the quality the game represents. The Wonderful 101 was a great case study on how these games perform with Nintendo's targeted demographic. 

 

If 100% of the potential consumers of these things are split to where 80% of game players are not the 'core' gamers, or rather, the people that will give you repeat business and recognize quality, then it only makes sense to go after the remaining 20% that will. 

 

Of that 20%, Sony and Microsoft have been courting to them for a generation. Nintendo, as proven by this post, has dedicated scarce resources to this group. 

 

I ask everyone who disagrees to consider W101 as a PS4 title in the same position as it was for the Wii U (second big exclusive). Just consider the game 'as is', and predict the sales of it on the PS4. Again, the core demographic would be represented en mass, and would not be asked to buy a console for a handful of games. 

[TheUltimateWaddleDee]

It probably would have done just as badly, because games from Platinum never do well. Viewtiful Joe is the exception, and that was only on the Gamecube. It tanked on the PS2. Okami didn't do well on either the PS2 or the Wii (not sure how Okami HD did), God Hand caused Capcom to close down Clover Studios (which would become Platinum Games). Madworld didn't do well even though it got a lit of attention (this is the only game that probably would've done better on other systems, except Anarchy Reigns didn't do well either), and no other publisher expect Nintendo would fund the sequel to Bayonetta. The only game that I can think of that was a complete success was Metal Gear Rising Revengence. Their games are almost never a financial success.

[Nintyfan86]

It probably would have done just as badly, because games from Platinum never do well. Viewtiful Joe is the exception, and that was only on the Gamecube. It tanked on the PS2. Okami didn't do well on either the PS2 or the Wii (not sure how Okami HD did), God Hand caused Capcom to close down Clover Studios (which would become Platinum Games). Madworld didn't do well even though it got a lit of attention (this is the only game that probably would've done better on other systems, except Anarchy Reigns didn't do well either), and no other publisher expect Nintendo would fund the sequel to Bayonetta. The only game that I can think of that was a complete success was Metal Gear Rising Revengence. Their games are almost never a financial success.

Great points. Before I begin, please remember that my intention is to only figure out what is correct. I am not interested in finding out who is right (even if I am wrong).

 

OK, I have not pulled release data for all of those titles with respect to the time frame. I am only going to suggest that we ignore Clover/Platinum titles launched within 2 years of a system launch. My argument depends on a small library and the market segments. 

 

W101 came out in August, after Pikmin 3. At this point, it would be fair to suggest the Wii U was in a drought that the PS2/Wii/360 did not experience. We can discount the PS2 due to the changing industry factors (the influence of social media and marketing tactics changing accordingly). 

 

My theory is that the core customer, the person that has a PS4 but will not buy a Wii U for a handful of titles, but will buy tons of software for the PS4, would gobble up W101 in January and February of 2014. 

 

Again, I am presuming a 1:1 situation. I realize Platinum games are niche, all great software is these days. However, if the Wii U remained vigilant with monthly releases, targeted toward people like us during the launch window, the audience could have been there for the game. Rather, the advertising could have been there for the game. 

 

Instead, Nintendo takes us for granted, presumably thinking we will be there despite their constant ignoring of our desires. They throw us scraps to chase the 'Blue Ocean'. 

 

If you have actually read that book, you will naturally see a Blue Ocean forming among core gamers-those who want more than me-too clones of AAA franchises. 

[SailtheSeas]

Nintendo needed a console with modern hardware that was third party friendly and they needed first party games like they had on the N64 and I guarantee that Nintendo would be going hammer and tongs with Sony's PS4. When I cast my mind back to all the consoles I have owned and played on, nothing comes close to the Nintendo 64. I know a lot of people tout the PS2, the Dreamcast, the SNES and the Mega Drive as being the best games console of all time, but for me it was the N64.

 

When you look at the games Nintendo are releasing on the Wii U in comparison to what they released on the SNES, N64 and Gamecube, it's as if Nintendo is a completely different company. I really do think Nintendo's decision to abandon gamers in favour of casual gamers will force them into irrelevancy in the home console market.

 

The Wii U isn't selling, not even a 3D Mario game has drastically improved sales, it's flapping like a fish out of water and I dare say the next Nintendo home console will do the same unless drastic changes take place at Nintendo and Nintendo go back to being the Nintendo of the 1990's and early 2000's and not this Nintendo of 2006 - present day.

[Raiden]

Nintendo needed a console with modern hardware that was third party friendly and they needed first party games like they had on the N64.

WHAT? They do have one with Modern Hardware it's called Wii U. Learn how a system works rather then pitch a tent over face numbers like PS4/XBO. Esp XBO which doesn't know how to 1080.  Wii U has 1000X more 3rd party support than N64. Including indies and yes they count. N64 was almost as bad as SEGA Saturn to develop for thanks to some weird architecture design choices and the biggest flaw were the carts. Besides being expensive they were also very limited in capacity.64MB compared to 650MB of CD rom. Heck WiiU is current with that also using a 5x disc drive (compared to PS3 2x and PS4 6x and I think WiiU disc drive reads at 22Mb and PS4 is 27mb) drive with the discs same capacity as Blu -Ray and I believe can be dual layer. Not to mention Nintendo forced any 3rd party to purchase the carts from them and it was pricey and those 2 factors alone left N64 pretty dry. Nintendo 64 had the smallest 3rd party support of any Nintendo system aside from VB.

 

I loved the N64 and my fave games  besides first/2nd party was Mischief Makers(which is currently in my N64 right now) and Mega Man 64. In the end N64 has only about 300 games for it. Something even Wii U is well on it;s way to surpass. Even Gamecube which sold less than N64 had over 600 which is small for a console but N64 library in terms of amount of releases was pathetic. NES/SNES had nearly 800 which for then was very good. Dreamcast in it's 2 years run had about 700 official games 248 of those in the US alone and I think 218 for PAL and Japan had a bunch of them.

 

Thing is Wii U has plenty of power. Just that's the PS2 of this era. PS2 didn't lag all that far behind GCN and Xbox but there was a difference. Wii U does need more 3rd party support but it's in far better shape than N64 on WiiU's worst day.

[SailtheSeas]

WHAT? They do have one with Modern Hardware it's called Wii U. Learn how a system works rather then pitch a tent over face numbers like PS4/XBO. Esp XBO which doesn't know how to 1080.  Wii U has 1000X more 3rd party support than N64. Including indies and yes they count. N64 was almost as bad as SEGA Saturn to develop for thanks to some weird architecture design choices and the biggest flaw were the carts. Besides being expensive they were also very limited in capacity.64MB compared to 650MB of CD rom. Heck WiiU is current with that also using a 5x disc drive (compared to PS3 2x and PS4 6x and I think WiiU disc drive reads at 22Mb and PS4 is 27mb) drive with the discs same capacity as Blu -Ray and I believe can be dual layer. Not to mention Nintendo forced any 3rd party to purchase the carts from them and it was pricey and those 2 factors alone left N64 pretty dry. Nintendo 64 had the smallest 3rd party support of any Nintendo system aside from VB.

 

I loved the N64 and my fave games  besides first/2nd party was Mischief Makers(which is currently in my N64 right now) and Mega Man 64. In the end N64 has only about 300 games for it. Something even Wii U is well on it;s way to surpass. Even Gamecube which sold less than N64 had over 600 which is small for a console but N64 library in terms of amount of releases was pathetic. NES/SNES had nearly 800 which for then was very good. Dreamcast in it's 2 years run had about 700 official games 248 of those in the US alone and I think 218 for PAL and Japan had a bunch of them.

 

Thing is Wii U has plenty of power. Just that's the PS2 of this era. PS2 didn't lag all that far behind GCN and Xbox but there was a difference. Wii U does need more 3rd party support but it's in far better shape than N64 on WiiU's worst day.

 

Given how poor received the Wii U is it may not even reach the Gamecube's total of 21 million units, nevermind the 32 million N64's sold.

[Raiden]

People said the same thing about PS3 it's first 2-3 years in..and PSP and 3DS and NDS.

 

80,70,40 and counting and 155 million each has sold. Will Wii U do that? Maybe not,maybe it will. My gut says not a chance but odd things have happened before. I want to see how Smash and MK8 perform first. I am not the one who cares much about sales but if I were to be cautiously optimistic they can get to 40 is they really market it well. Being more realistic and the current pace not even factoring in 2014 releases just as it stand now. Yeah it aint looking great. Still it's a bad example to use N64 as the one to follow.

[SailtheSeas]

People said the same thing about PS3 it's first 2-3 years in..and PSP and 3DS and NDS.

 

80,70,40 and counting and 155 million each has sold. Will Wii U do that? Maybe not,maybe it will. My gut says not a chance but odd things have happened before. I want to see how Smash and MK8 perform first. I am not the one who cares much about sales but if I were to be cautiously optimistic they can get to 40 is they really market it well. Being more realistic and the current pace not even factoring in 2014 releases just as it stand now. Yeah it aint looking great. Still it's a bad example to use N64 as the one to follow.

 

I honestly cannot see the Wii U getting more than 30 million sales and if it manages to sell that much and make Nintendo an overall net profit, I will be hugely surprised and very happy.

 

Nintendo really have dropped the ball with the Wii U and it will be interesting to see just how well the PS4 sells in Japan.

 

As for the PS3 what saved it was having a lot of diverse software and some good first party exclusives, Nintendo has some great first party games, but where's the third party support? Like it or not, the Wii U is a console which will be plagued by game droughts and in a lot of people's eyes simply isn't worth the investment, not even for Nintendo first party games.

Edited by SailtheSeas, 22 February 2014 - 02:08 PM.

[Raiden]

What saved PS3 is that sespite big releases they were not pushing the console. Sony then fired the marketing department and hired a new team and they did an amazing job.

 

So this was the old crew

 

 

This was the new crew at the time and started to help Sony sell better

 

 

Nintendo needs marketing and hard. PS4 showed you can sell a boatload of console with nothing to play.

[SailtheSeas]

Nintendo needs marketing and hard. PS4 showed you can sell a boatload of console with nothing to play.

 

I agree with you on that point, but that's not only the problem with the Wii U, a mandatory gimmick which offers virtually nothing to enhance gameplay, lower specifications than its competitor and a lack of compelling software is also hampering the Wii U.

 

The PS4 is selling well because it is the most powerful console on the market, has been marketed impeccably and has a great price point which offers value for money.

 

The Wii U has none of this and neither does the Xbox One and that's why both consoles will be smashed into oblivion by the PS4.

 

Give a non- brand loyal gamer the choice of all three systems and I bet they'll choose the PS4.

Edited by SailtheSeas, 22 February 2014 - 02:18 PM.

[Akazury]

I agree with you on that point, but that's not only the problem with the Wii U, a mandatory gimmick which offers virtually nothing to enhance gameplay, lower specifications than its competitor and a lack of compelling software is also hampering the Wii U.

Let's just wait for E3 and see what Nintendo's plan is for the enhancement of the Gamepad. And like always compelling games depends on the kind of person you are. The U has more diverse games than the PS/X1 at this moment with quite the additions coming up.

[Merky Water]

I honestly hope they don't slide away from the gamepad or motionplus controllers.  Nintendo has always stood apart as trying for new innovation while comparisons are so often made between xbox and playstation because they're so similar.  I'd say don't confuse a gimmick with innovation though.  That second screen has a lot of potential and i think even sony's seeing that hence why they're dabbling into making the vita be your gamepad.  Suprisingly, sony usually drills negatively at these innovations.  I'm sure everyone remembers the commercials bashing motion controls only to make the Move a little while later.  Since they're already in production trying to make the vita and ps4 work hand in hand, attacking the gamepad would go poorly for them and they clearly don't need to go negative ads for numbers.  What will be interesting is if they stick with the new control options this time.  ...or let it die like the pretty much did the Move.

 

I know i've read some rhetoric on why the gamepad should have been an optional additional purchase rather than inbox.  But i think if it wasn't incorportated into the purchase, developers wouldn't touch it at all.  ...kinda like they did with the Move and Kinect since those were after thoughts.  The developers don't need to go crazy with the gamepad or vita and clearly, some don't.  But I think those that do are going to be remembered.  Dual analog's clearly sticking around... similar to the D-pad.  But if gaming doesn't continue to innovate, that's when the market goes stale.  Is nintendo moving too fast on the innovation front?  Perhaps.  But i wouldn't be able to stand if 3rd party set the pace.  Working with new controllers takes money.  A lot more than making cutscenes look prettier with HD graphics.  But pushing the envelope keeps the ball moving.  Else we'd all be back on   (insert your favorite past console here) !

[Hunter]

 

 

 

 

I guess I won't be sleeping tonight then...

[NayNay]

you guys make some really great points here. Nintendo is just not in the same class as the other two major competitors when it comes to marketing or general appeal right now.

 

However, it is a good machine, and is still relatively new, and it can be turned around quickly if they make some strong decisions on direction and marketing. We have lost millions in sales of course that wont return, but giving up and copping out claiming casual audience or whatever, or giving lip service to the hard core audience will just hasten Nintendo's irrelevance. All you can control is 'the next correct thing', which is to basically reboot and rethink everything.

 

If they choose to do this, it is almost a blessing that they havent released a new Metroid or Zelda game...they could be the face of the 'second launch' of WiiU. If they had fired all of thier bullets already it would be a long way back, but these two games leave them with a few in the chamber if they choose a better direction to fire the gun so to speak.

[GAMER1984]

you guys make some really great points here. Nintendo is just not in the same class as the other two major competitors when it comes to marketing or general appeal right now.

 

However, it is a good machine, and is still relatively new, and it can be turned around quickly if they make some strong decisions on direction and marketing. We have lost millions in sales of course that wont return, but giving up and copping out claiming casual audience or whatever, or giving lip service to the hard core audience will just hasten Nintendo's irrelevance. All you can control is 'the next correct thing', which is to basically reboot and rethink everything.

 

If they choose to do this, it is almost a blessing that they havent released a new Metroid or Zelda game...they could be the face of the 'second launch' of WiiU. If they had fired all of thier bullets already it would be a long way back, but these two games leave them with a few in the chamber if they choose a better direction to fire the gun so to speak.

 

 

The bolded part... I doubt the high ups at Nintendo seem to still be arrogant and are unwilling to do certain things.

[SailtheSeas]

Let's just wait for E3 and see what Nintendo's plan is for the enhancement of the Gamepad. And like always compelling games depends on the kind of person you are. The U has more diverse games than the PS/X1 at this moment with quite the additions coming up.

 

But for how much longer? The PS4 and Xbox One will have sports games, FPS's, RPG's, the PS4 will have JRPG's, indie titles similar to what's on Steam while Nintendo will rely heavily on the same old franchises and will have the odd great exclusive like X and Bayonetta 2, but that's just not enough, not in comparison to the games that will feature on the Xbox One and PS4.