29 replies to this topic

[3Dude]

Tony the Talking Clock, on 04 May 2014 - 11:20 PM, said:
Responses in bold.

Stop beating a dead horse and further dragging the thread off-topic.

Thats what you are desperately trying to do. Not me. Im just trying to get a very serious subject to the point where it can be discussed lucidly, instead of being dismissed in favour of remaining comfortably complacant in preconceived notions.

1. So... Why would I be specifically arguing only about the 'good use of acheivements'? Its pretty obvious Im specifically targeting the bad ones.. I also never said all rewards like acheivements were bad. That was a strawman of your own design. I responded because you said 'you didnt understand what some people have against acheivements'. Because you always disregaurd the subject without actually listening to what anyone says about it.

2. That would be because you are miles off course and dont listen to what is being said or the messages provided for you.

You are stuck on the end USER SIDE of acheivements. The trinket. Im telling you what PUBLISHERS, now lead by MARKETING SIDE CEO'S have been doing with them for the past 2/3rds of the last generation until now. That is the reason the vast majority of acheivements you have to admit to being silly/pointless. Its also part of the ever increasing reason the silly ones are so heavily outweighing the legitimate ones. You dont go to siggraph. You havent heard game design conferences switch themes from discussing 'dynamical meaning conflicting with authored stories in videogames', to 'managing backlash from cutting corners' and 'retaining virility in addicted whales'. Yes, yes it is impacting game design. No, it is not just acheivements, the blame cannot be placed entirely on acheivements. You should know nothing is so simple. Unfortunately, you always dismiss the subject with a strawman before it can ever get anywhere.

3. Except you see, I DID leave one hell of a whopping explanation. in fact, without watching it, you cant possibly begin to understand the context of where i am coming from.... And thats just a tiny glimpse into what i am talking about. Just the beginning. I do it on purpose to catch people in thinking traps. Because as long as people are content to be stuck in them, there is no reason whatsoever to waste time attempting to communicate with them before they snap out of it.

Just to let you know, the dissertations that I am going to be bringing up all come from game conference design lectures, and College game design lectures. If you dont want to put the effort forth required to think about these subjects on the proper level, and rather just leave things on the mental capacity of thoughtless one liners and animated gifs. Just let me know now.

I am actually interested in an example, as well.

Then you need to watch the video I provided,or at least find cliff notes for Jonathon Blows 'Dramatic presentation of non challenge'. Before we can even touch on the problems with the way acheivements are being used in contemporary game design, we need to understand how game design changed so rapidly to allow a concept as simple as an 'acheivement' to be abused so bad.

[Socalmuscle]

The xbox and playstation version of achievements and trophies are total joke material

"Congratulations, you turned on your xbox"

"Congratulations, you played a game."

If there are to be things called achievements, they should actually be things that you ACHIEVE.

Like beating a level within a certain time, etc.

There are currently some achievements that do that, but it's mixed.

And even better if those achievements provided some sort of reward for acquiring them. Other than just being there. On a screen.

[3Dude]

The xbox and playstation version of achievements and trophies are total joke material

"Congratulations, you turned on your xbox"

"Congratulations, you played a game."

If there are to be things called achievements, they should actually be things that you ACHIEVE.

Like beating a level within a certain time, etc.

There are currently some achievements that do that, but it's mixed.

And even better if those achievements provided some sort of reward for acquiring them. Other than just being there. On a screen.

Those fake substanceless rewards you dont like...

This is what designers today call 'The treadmill'.

Its no longer about whether you are smart or clever or skilled. Its about how much time you sink in. Walk the treadmill, and your acheivements are given to you. Just like everyone else.

There are two types of rewards/acheivements. One can be likened to food, it is healthy, nutritious, and naturally leads to higher quality of life/enjoyment. The other... Can be more likened to addictive drugs. It has no nutritional/game design value, and really only feeds off of a compulsive need to 'see what comes next'.

An easy way to seperate the two is to strip away the acheivements themselves. If a message didnt popup telling you you just acheived something would you still care? Would you even notice? If you DO notice, and feel satisfied and accomplished, even if you werent told you just did what you just did with a pop up. Its the positive good game design acheivement. Like say 100%ing sotc.

Past that, are your actions rewarded? Just like what you brought up, it used to be a prevalent thing. Not too long ago, and still today, in rare companies of strong game design integrity, accomplishing these things would actually give the player more game content.

Unfortunately, such strong game design requires time, and design skill. Two commodities publishers HATE spending. So more and more we see games designed with the 'drugs' in mind. Easier, faster, still makes money when marketed. And so the vast majority of games today are just walking the treadmill.

[SteventheSlayer]

Probably gonna get mad at me for this, but

[3Dude]

SteventheSlayer, on 05 May 2014 - 01:27 AM, said:
Probably gonna get mad at me for this, but

Its not about ME getting mad, When i specifically asked Tony, if he seriously wanted to get into what is really going on here, to understand things people were talking about that they couldnt see on the same level, or if he wanted to purposefully continue to ignore what other people were saying and use one liners and stupid pictures to avoid a sophisticated discussion, that was an open invitation to anyone else as well. Its so I know whether or not that person is a waste of time.
You have made your choice, of your own agency. Dont YOU get mad, when you try and chime in with stupid little one liners and pictures, and your opinion is discarded as 100% worthless. You chose that.

[SteventheSlayer]

Its not about ME getting mad, When i specifically asked Tony, if he seriously wanted to get into what is really going on here, to understand things people were talking about that they couldnt see on the same level, or if he wanted to purposefully continue to ignore what other people were saying and use one liners and stupid pictures to avoid a sophisticated discussion, that was an open invitation to anyone else as well. Its so I know whether or not that person is a waste of time.
You have made your choice, of your own agency. Dont YOU get mad, when you try and chime in with stupid little one liners and pictures, and your opionion is discarded as 100% worthless. You chose that.

By whom? You?

What makes you think I care if you tell me my opinion is worthless? I, scratch that, we all have as much right to state our opinions on here as you, so before you start getting all high and mighty with your quest to get rid of achievements, maybe you should calm down and stop using insults and ad hominem in arguments. It really only makes you look immature.

Edited by SteventheSlayer, 05 May 2014 - 07:55 AM.

[3Dude]

By whom? You?
What makes you think I care if you tell me my opinion is worthless? I, scratch that, we all have as much right to state our opinions on here as you, so before you start getting all high and mighty with your quest to get rid of achievements, maybe you should calm down and stop using insults and ad hominem in arguments. It really only makes you look immature.

Oh, the argument has not started. And no, you chose to discard the value of your opinion on this subject. Not I. And if you didnt care, you wouldnt be getting so pissy right now.... Like I said, its not about ME getting mad. If anything, it will just be more dissapointment at the younger generation failing to meet potential, because they lack the willpower to put forth the effort. Not really a mad thing, more of a sad thing.

And its probably for the best anyways, as with this post: 'your quest to get rid of achievements' you have demonstrated you fundamentally dont understand even what this argument is going to be about.

You cant get rid of acheivements, its impossible. The very nature of interactivity secures their place, its literally the defining difference between videogames and other forms of expression like cinema or literature.. They existed LOOONG before the faux reward system implemented in ps360 were a thing.

[SteventheSlayer]

Oh, the argument has not started. And no, you chose to discard the value of your opinion on this subject. Not I. And if you didnt care, you wouldnt be getting so pissy right now.... Like I said, its not about ME getting mad. If anything, it will just be more dissapointment at the younger generation failing to meet potential, because they lack the willpower to put forth the effort. Not really a mad thing, more of a sad thing.

And its probably for the best anyways, as with this post: 'your quest to get rid of achievements' you have demonstrated you fundamentally dont understand even what this argument is going to be about.

You cant get rid of acheivements, its impossible. The very nature of interactivity secures their place, its literally the defining difference between videogames and other forms of expression like cinema or literature.. They existed LOOONG before the faux reward system implemented in ps360 were a thing.

It was hyperbole, though I can't expect you to understand that.

And since you insist on childishly using ad hominem, I won't even discuss this with you anymore.

[3Dude]

It was hyperbole, though I can't expect you to understand that.
And since you insist on childishly using ad hominem, I won't even discuss this with you anymore.

I specifically stated that the use of hyperbole would be one of the ways of admitting you werent participating in this discussion, and to not have your opinion taken as worthwhile. it was literally the post before you did precisely that, and likely the very reason you in fact, DID do precisely that. So, nice try. Not really. Kids and consequences....

I also suspect that, Like Shawn Spencer and Mexican standoff,you dont quite understand what an Ad Hominum is, short of regurgitating the words you read under its definition... You dont have a fundamental understanding, and so are erroneously using it inappropriately.

See, an Ad Hominum attack is an off topic attack criticizing unrelated aspects of an individuals character, like saying you are having unconsentual sex with blind quadripeligics, in order to undermine the value of an argument you may have here (you dont actually have one in this discussion yet).

Whereas I, have specifically cited your shortcomings as they specifically apply to the direct topic of discussion...

And by the way, you never did discuss anything. This discussion has not even started yet. Im still waiting to start. I cant start until someone, at least one person, demonstrates they have a fundamental understanding of at the very least, the first concept on the road to this discussion, so I know Im not just wasting my time.

This whole waste of time has been you uncomfortably dancing around the need to invest time and effort into understanding something. Which you decided not to do.

Its more likely you simply CANT discuss this with me. Which is fine, I didnt expect much more from you.

[Auzzie Wingman]

Rewards systems are great depending on how you design and implement them. Most games have.a mixture of easy picks, grinds, walls and challenges.

The only problem with these is determining where and how to sow it into your game. I think it can be used to make players go beyond conventions. The first example that comes to mind is Unchanging Armour in KH 1.5. Beating the game without changing gear would probably be daunting in any RPG.

There is nothing wrong with inclusion of a reward system on the Wii U. It is a highly sought feature as well. I've already given my thoughts as to how it could work before.