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#41 Socalmuscle

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 04:14 PM

Hello everyone! The Xbox "Hut" will not run in an episodic nature like the Wii U "Five", but nonetheless will have a constant flow of videos! This thread is being converted to keep a rolling log of the last 3 videos, so enjoy! :-)

How Real is the Cloud to Gamers?




Destiny Beta First Impressions:



Introduction:

http://youtu.be/7Qm7S5fufNU


I remember your thread on getting an x1.

I also think it's a great system.

But curious... Are you making any money from MS now to promote on Youtube, forums, etc?

Edited by Socalmuscle, 14 August 2014 - 04:14 PM.


#42 iEatTacos

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 06:41 PM

When ZYRO announced he purchased an Xbox One and that he would be making Xbox One Content

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#43 ZyroXZ2

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 10:13 PM

The cloud (which is nothing more than a server) is the only way to store and distribute it for massive public use, but everything else you said is pretty blatantly not true.

1. You are massively over selling what is happening. Drivatar is just dynamic scripting, and after looking into it further than your now obviously taken from marketing bulletpoint explanations from your video, via straight out of the mouth of Turn 10 and through the filter of a computer science education, a pretty weak, offline (Not calculated/adaptive in real time) version compared to the online stuff I saw a decade ago... I vastly over estimated it in giving it the benefit of the doubt... But... it is just a racing game, so it doesnt need much, as its restricted by a very obvious and controlling rule set (Race to the finish). Its probably only stored and distributed by the cloud, the actual generated scripts are written immediately to recorded data, offline, but on console.

2. You need to read up on machine learning and hueristics before attempting to make these uneducated claims, you think you are pointing out two seperate things, and find some manner of vindication, but in reality, both these behaviors, making ai more 'humanlike' and 'simple ai adapting to human behavior', are both done with the same solution, hueristics. The things you are telling us to imagine in the future were done a decade ago, exactly as you described. Also the fact you are using fictional movies as some kind of point is... Very... very... bad. Very bad. It doesnt require vast amounts of power, (most) game designers are just incredibly behind the times when it comes to adaptive AI, probably because they ditched trying it because of the in order floating point heavy branch sucky processors of the ps360 (Hueristics, and most things important to a game engine and ai require good branch performance, and benefit massively from out of order execution). Some of the most advanced huerestics in videogames so far have actually come out on the least powerful systems. The wii actually has quite the slew of them.

The emergent behavior in a little kings story could grow to become quite the spectacle. Never the same twice. I still wish I had caught the great hippie genocide on video. Again, this is the same solution required for 'drivatars', hueristic machine learning, except exponentially more advanced in its capability to expand.

Dwarf fortress, both fortress and adventure mode makes anything you have talked about here a complete and absolute joke, and its... not online at all (Internet online, ai adaption taking place on the fly is also called online, and in that context, Dwarf fortresses AI IS online, or it adaptively calculates on the fly, whilst forza is offline, with scripts generated after reviewing a recording of player input), and controls the adaptive ai's of hundreds of thousands to millions of characters throughout tens of thousands of years of hueristic ai generated history and events.

This AI is neither new, nor does it require vast amounts of power. In fact, it was advancing by leaps and bounds in the early 2000's... By 2004 they had entered a live field test of a popular mmorpg, with a clan of hueristic adaptive ai, and it not only conquered standard ai, but adapted to consistantly and decisevly defeat the best human teams, including human specific 'tricks' and strategies, within 15-30 rounds, consistantly. It was so successful they had to devise a new hueristics system to scale it back when it became to advanced for human players.

And then mainstream progress on hueristic ai dropped off the face of the earth around 2005-6. Hrm... Wonder what happened in 2005/6....

Im sorry man, but you got caught by very well done marketing trying to hide the fact that ai has stagnated and atrophied for the past 8 years due to humans and not hardware (All at the hands of the 'Cinematic gaming AAAAAAAA experience!!!!!), and hyping up simplistic dynamic scriptings, hoping no one remembers that they were blown out of the water back in 2004. Marketing pulled the bag over your head.

The cloud is not required for drivatars ai at all. The new scripts can and in all liklihood 99.99% are calculated and compiled offline (Both not during a race, and not in the cloud) JUST like sim city and the massive lie about how it was calculated in the cloud, but,in fact, was not and is on the system, and simply uses the cloud as a convenient method of distribution. The cloud does nothing more for drivatars than the cloud Nintendo uses (Yes, Nintendo has da cloud, technically everyone does) for Mario kart 8, distributing ghosts.

 

While I find your immediate attempt to place yourself as above me in intelligence an intensely large red flag that says I should not waste my time arguing with you, I WILL point out that you may be in over your head.

 

Drivatars are EXACTLY dynamic scripting created through the use of human interaction with the program (Forza 5), and until you've experienced what I'm seeing firsthand, you are massively dismissing its worth in the world of AI in games that have long been filled with "dull" AI patterns.  You're so busy trying to defy marketing to show your individual ability to perceive information that you are missing some of the actual positives and truth behind it.

 

Second, your use of Dwarf Fortress, while a good example, is an example of hive AI.  It's a massive number of individual units given tasks to create the illusion of many individually intelligent entities, but they are all ultimately controlled by ONE SINGLE ENTITY: the program itself (the game).  Find me a game in which each individual character is controlled by a highly sophisticated, concurrent running program.  Oh right, you won't, because that requires supercomputing power, something outside the realm of the "home".  Since the DF game world is also procedurally generated, it actually MATCHES the behavior of the cloud in many ways: take data in; compute; employ computed results around scripted boundaries.  The many things you find so great about the AI in DF are actually rather simple, and given the game's primarily mathematic calculations (of which CPUs are fantastic at), DF is a great example of superior mathematics programming skills moreso than AI (which is also mathematics, mind you, as all programming is, despite the use of "language"-based programming to simplify its deployment).

 

DF, then, is a good and bad example: AI routines in large numbers controlled with reactionary behavior to the procedurally generated world; but it does not set itself apart from the concept of the "cloud" in any way.  Everything that DF is doing can be offloaded to the cloud, leaving the CPU free to do more complex tasks on the local machine.  This is the point you completely missed above, and I quote myself, "This cannot be done on a single local machine because the processing power required to create an AI that dynamically adapts on the spot to a single player is WAY beyond the power of a 6-core mobile CPU that is also running the system itself."  In other words, with 6 cores already calculating complex physics, frame calculations, etc. there's almost no ROOM to create the AI that you so aptly want to remind me already exists (because I never said it DIDN'T already exist).  What I clearly said was "AI in GAMING", and I am perhaps wary of your dismissal of marketing because you are already missing keywords from my own "presentation" on the matter.  Sure, there are prototype AI tests.  Sure, DF is deceptively complex, but you said it yourself: AI in gaming has been almost utterly crap.  Drivatars are a HUGE step above the crap AI we've been experiencing.  You'd believe it when some Drivatars purposely block and smash into you like their real life counterparts do (and I mean, that PERSON, as each Drivatar is customized AI to the driver's actual human behaviors), which is why I choose to drive defensively to not add to the Drivatars that are seriously racing trolls (inside turn cutting, pit maneuvers, brake checking).

 

And to your final point of the MMORPG in which it took 15-30 rounds to consistently beat even humans, you proved my point without realizing it.  You went ahead and created an example I could have used to demonstrate the usefulness of cloud computing for the Xbox One.  You probably are conveniently ignoring that an MMORPG is an MMO, hence, everyone plays on servers.  MMOs are inherently "cloud" based by your definition, and thus are capable of employing exactly what I talked about into the general gaming industry, albeit maybe not at such an intense algorithm as to make the enemies "unbeatable".  It took 15-30 rounds to beat the humans because it did exactly as I stated: took common human behaviors, and computed a preparatory reaction.  MMOs make this possible because everyone MUST connect to the server to play, and this makes data gathering easy.  When many Xbox Ones are connected to the cloud, this makes every game an "MMO", with millions of players providing plenty of data.  This takes me to the point I've made the entire time: imagine your MMO example employed (again, less aggressively) into the GENERAL GAMES WE PLAY.  Get it now?

 

In the end, as I mentioned in my first line, you will never falter in your way of seeing things, mostly because you think it's clearly above mine.  As unnecessarily elitist as you are behaving, I will not continue this argument no matter what you come up with next in an attempt to "put me in my place", as you are clearly attempting to do so simply because you do not agree with the benefits the cloud can provide to the Xbox One (even though, repeating again, you gave a PERFECT example of what it CAN do without realizing it).

 

I also have nothing against you personally, but would like to remind you that your behavioral supremacy is not the best way to learn about the world.  Arguing with me is fine, as I actually love a good debate (because for every 1 thing I know, there are 10 things I don't), but placing yourself above me with no real, tangible purpose other than to believe you are better is highly narrowminded.



I remember your thread on getting an x1.

I also think it's a great system.

But curious... Are you making any money from MS now to promote on Youtube, forums, etc?

 

I am NOT being sponsored by MS, but I have to tell you something blatantly interesting: the monetization on my Xbox videos provides a substantially higher percentage than my Wii U videos.  I do NOT know why this is the case, but it may be why so many successful gaming channels focus on MS and Sony (I have yet to add the PS4, but I imagine it may be the same thing)!

 

When ZYRO announced he purchased an Xbox One and that he would be making Xbox One Content

 

So what will be your reaction to the PS4, then?  :laugh:


Check out my entertainment gaming channel!

Sig_Banner.jpg

www.youtube.com/zyroxz2

 

Enjoy!  :laugh:


#44 Rockodoodle

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 10:50 PM

I'm not huge on sports games either, but I do enjoy Madden quite a bit. 2015 sounds like it will be enough of a departure from 2013 for my to get. and I'm a Spurs fan, so this year might be a good year to pick up YK15 too. I love racing and there are a few other titles that might interest me in coming months.  I also started enjoying Assasin's Creed- still haven't finished III and just got IV today. So, I'll probably wait a while after the next one is released and pick that up on sale too. In a year, I could see myself owning about 8-10 games and that will justify the system.  


Edited by Rockodoodle, 15 August 2014 - 03:50 AM.


#45 KeptMyWiiUAndLeftTheForums

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 11:09 PM

While I find your immediate attempt to place yourself as above me in intelligence an intensely large red flag that says I should not waste my time arguing with you, I WILL point out that you may be in over your head.

 

Drivatars are EXACTLY dynamic scripting created through the use of human interaction with the program (Forza 5), and until you've experienced what I'm seeing firsthand, you are massively dismissing its worth in the world of AI in games that have long been filled with "dull" AI patterns.  You're so busy trying to defy marketing to show your individual ability to perceive information that you are missing some of the actual positives and truth behind it.

 

Second, your use of Dwarf Fortress, while a good example, is an example of hive AI.  It's a massive number of individual units given tasks to create the illusion of many individually intelligent entities, but they are all ultimately controlled by ONE SINGLE ENTITY: the program itself (the game).  Find me a game in which each individual character is controlled by a highly sophisticated, concurrent running program.  Oh right, you won't, because that requires supercomputing power, something outside the realm of the "home".  Since the DF game world is also procedurally generated, it actually MATCHES the behavior of the cloud in many ways: take data in; compute; employ computed results around scripted boundaries.  The many things you find so great about the AI in DF are actually rather simple, and given the game's primarily mathematic calculations (of which CPUs are fantastic at), DF is a great example of superior mathematics programming skills moreso than AI (which is also mathematics, mind you, as all programming is, despite the use of "language"-based programming to simplify its deployment).

 

DF, then, is a good and bad example: AI routines in large numbers controlled with reactionary behavior to the procedurally generated world; but it does not set itself apart from the concept of the "cloud" in any way.  Everything that DF is doing can be offloaded to the cloud, leaving the CPU free to do more complex tasks on the local machine.  This is the point you completely missed above, and I quote myself, "This cannot be done on a single local machine because the processing power required to create an AI that dynamically adapts on the spot to a single player is WAY beyond the power of a 6-core mobile CPU that is also running the system itself."  In other words, with 6 cores already calculating complex physics, frame calculations, etc. there's almost no ROOM to create the AI that you so aptly want to remind me already exists (because I never said it DIDN'T already exist).  What I clearly said was "AI in GAMING", and I am perhaps wary of your dismissal of marketing because you are already missing keywords from my own "presentation" on the matter.  Sure, there are prototype AI tests.  Sure, DF is deceptively complex, but you said it yourself: AI in gaming has been almost utterly crap.  Drivatars are a HUGE step above the crap AI we've been experiencing.  You'd believe it when some Drivatars purposely block and smash into you like their real life counterparts do (and I mean, that PERSON, as each Drivatar is customized AI to the driver's actual human behaviors), which is why I choose to drive defensively to not add to the Drivatars that are seriously racing trolls (inside turn cutting, pit maneuvers, brake checking).

 

And to your final point of the MMORPG in which it took 15-30 rounds to consistently beat even humans, you proved my point without realizing it.  You went ahead and created an example I could have used to demonstrate the usefulness of cloud computing for the Xbox One.  You probably are conveniently ignoring that an MMORPG is an MMO, hence, everyone plays on servers.  MMOs are inherently "cloud" based by your definition, and thus are capable of employing exactly what I talked about into the general gaming industry, albeit maybe not at such an intense algorithm as to make the enemies "unbeatable".  It took 15-30 rounds to beat the humans because it did exactly as I stated: took common human behaviors, and computed a preparatory reaction.  MMOs make this possible because everyone MUST connect to the server to play, and this makes data gathering easy.  When many Xbox Ones are connected to the cloud, this makes every game an "MMO", with millions of players providing plenty of data.  This takes me to the point I've made the entire time: imagine your MMO example employed (again, less aggressively) into the GENERAL GAMES WE PLAY.  Get it now?

 

In the end, as I mentioned in my first line, you will never falter in your way of seeing things, mostly because you think it's clearly above mine.  As unnecessarily elitist as you are behaving, I will not continue this argument no matter what you come up with next in an attempt to "put me in my place", as you are clearly attempting to do so simply because you do not agree with the benefits the cloud can provide to the Xbox One (even though, repeating again, you gave a PERFECT example of what it CAN do without realizing it).

 

I also have nothing against you personally, but would like to remind you that your behavioral supremacy is not the best way to learn about the world.  Arguing with me is fine, as I actually love a good debate (because for every 1 thing I know, there are 10 things I don't), but placing yourself above me with no real, tangible purpose other than to believe you are better is highly narrowminded.



 

I am NOT being sponsored by MS, but I have to tell you something blatantly interesting: the monetization on my Xbox videos provides a substantially higher percentage than my Wii U videos.  I do NOT know why this is the case, but it may be why so many successful gaming channels focus on MS and Sony (I have yet to add the PS4, but I imagine it may be the same thing)!

 

 

So what will be your reaction to the PS4, then?  :laugh:

Hey I love a good debate too :D

 

That's like the only thing I read in the debate between you two btw.

 

But I only didn't read it because I don't really care about Microsoft, not because i'm lying when i say I love a good debate. I do. I swear.


WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

LISTEN AND BELIEVE

 


#46 3Dude

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 05:26 AM

Quote
While I find your immediate attempt to place yourself as above me in intelligence an intensely large red flag that says I should not waste my time arguing with you, I WILL point out that you may be in over your head.

Drivatars are EXACTLY dynamic scripting created through the use of human interaction with the program (Forza 5).


Yes, that is exactly what I called it isnt it? "Drivatar is just dynamic scripting". Yes, yes I did.




"and until you've experienced what I'm seeing firsthand, you are massively dismissing its worth in the world of AI in games that have long been filled with "dull" AI patterns."

This doesnt make any sense in correlation to the reality that has taken place in this thread. Ive been singing the praises of hueristics, and languishing in their dissapearence and lack of use for the past decade. My first post and response was joyously pointing out that forza, does in fact, employ huerestic machine learning (It in fact, always has since the original xbox... Although it didnt work very well on the 360 because of poor branch performance and in order execution). On top of that, I have made numerous inferences to hueristic expirements and performences in the past, reinforcing the notion that I am a huge fan of machine learning AI. You.... Have not looked into a single reference I have mentioned. In fact, you seem completely oblivious to the fact that I have mentioned anything at all, and seem to be in an imaginary fight against someone who is saying things like 'Adaptive ai is worthless'.

I have experienced what you are talking about first hand, in a far, far, far, more sophisticated use of hueristic machine learning. The Neverwinter nights hueristics experiments. NWN original bioware AI was dull and morbid. Which spurned the hueristic experiments, the success of which led to the viability in real time gaming.


" You're so busy trying to defy marketing to show your individual ability to perceive information that you are missing some of the actual positives and truth behind it."


Are you seriously trying to imply that I, the person who has been screaming for hueristic ai in every thread that the topic of ai comes up in, am denouncing its value? The cloud and hueristic machine learning are not the same thing, and the cloud as microsoft is advertising it is not a thing at all, it is perfectly reasoable to value the importance of one, while admitting the other is over blown marketing, (which you are attached to in degrees of increasing suspicion). Bringing up the fact the dynamic scripting and machine learning, in fact, is not new. Have you even bothered to look up the word hueristic at all?

"Second, your use of Dwarf Fortress, while a good example, is an example of hive AI."

hive AI isnt a real thing, its a buzzword. Swarm intelligence is a thing, but is not remotely close to what is being used in dwarf fortress, as it doesnt add and delete behaviors based off of stimuli. Swarm intelligence is not a hueristic system. It responds to stimuli, but it doesnt learn, and is ill suited for game ai mechanics (Like being a human opponent) but well suited for background tasks (Like a school of fish).

"
massive number of individual units given tasks to create the illusion of many individually intelligent entities, but they are all ultimately controlled by ONE SINGLE ENTITY: the program itself (the game)"

dont know how to break this to you....

"
Find me a game in which each individual character is controlled by a highly sophisticated, concurrent running program."

This is literally every game ever made. Back then they were called sub routines, in this case usually named after the enemy they were governing.

"
Oh right, you won't, because that requires supercomputing power, something outside the realm of the "home"


yeah.... no. They require really clever programmers. Good branchwork is such a pain. The reason you could need a super computer, like say watson, is because of the sheer amount of data watson needs to go through to find the answer to select. Watson needs that processing power to accelerate searching through all the data it has stored in a fast manner. Even the most sophisticated adaptive AI in videogames will never accrue more than a fraction of 1% of watsons selection list of data, even after throwing millions of scripts at it.

" Since the DF game world is also procedurally generated, it actually MATCHES the behavior of the cloud in many ways: take data in; compute; employ computed results around scripted boundaries."

Yes, I believe that was my exact point. You miss the part where it generates new scripts for selection based on events that impact the 13 states of thought for each entity in dwarf fortress, both from pc's, and the player alike. This is how events like alliances and wars occur, and also for example how I end up finding books, and artwork, murals and statues created by npc's describing my feats (and failures) that caught the eye of history... Varying accounts of which have been found for the same event from different viewpoints (The goblins did not have anywhere near as herioc a depiction of my fall at the battle of guildedbottom). Although thats not the cloud, the cloud is just a server, what you have brought up is actually a somewhat shaky description of hueristics in ai. Replace 'around scripted boundries' with 'generate new scripts for selection, keep scripts with a high rate of success, and remove scripts with a low success rate'.

" The many things you find so great about the AI in DF are actually rather simple, and given the game's primarily mathematic calculations (of which CPUs are fantastic at), DF is a great example of superior mathematics programming skills moreso than AI (which is also mathematics, mind you, as all programming is, despite the use of "language"-based programming to simplify its deployment).
"

Again, I have got some really bad news for you, since you seem to be REALLY attached to the Molynuex level of song and dance here.

"DF, then, is a good and bad example: AI routines in large numbers controlled with reactionary behavior to the procedurally generated world"

Hueristic behavior. Its a machine learning ai. You are describing the ai routines of the animal flocks in dwarf fortress, not the sentient npc's.

"
but it does not set itself apart from the concept of the "cloud" in any way.
"

Thats.... again, my entire point, but you have confused the definition of the cloud, or rather, the ridiculous marketing definition of the cloud, with the definition of a hueristic learning ai.

" Everything that DF is doing can be offloaded to the cloud."

Of course it can, the cloud is just a server. And that was, in fact, my very point. Its not 'teh power of tah cloouuuuuuddddddd ooohhhhhhh OOOOOoooOOOOhhhhhH!!!!' that makes hueristic ai possible. Its... Hueristic ai that makes hueristic ai possible.


 
 

Quoteleaving the CPU free to do more complex tasks on the local machine.
Nope, too much latency, even for dwarf fortress, which is not nearly as fast paced a game as forza, that would be infuriating. What you think is happening, is not happening at all. The difference between DF adaptive ai, and forza's, is that df updates the entirety of its ai every cycle, its ai is online. Forza does not do anything online. Its all offline (Talking about ai, not internet) until after you finish the race. Then it sends out a couple kb of data representing the race to the microsoft servers (the cloud). In this data is the processed results of your race, the scripts generated from your actions, THIS IS WHERE IT RESPONDS TO YOU, before it ever reaches the cloud, before it ever leaves your system.

"
This is the point you completely missed above, and I quote myself, "This cannot be done on a single local machine because the processing power required to create an AI that dynamically adapts on the spot to a single player is WAY beyond the power of a 6-core mobile CPU that is also running the system itself.""

Not yet. So far, everything forza has done is done on the console itself, including the script generation for the adaptive ai. Had you actually bothered to read into any of the hints I have been dropping all over the place, or even googled hueristics and read a little bit, here is where you would be getting excited for legitimate reality. The point past this is where servers see a great benefit, and where forzas cloud coincides with dwarf fortress's massive population. Ill get into this again as soon as I see a good entry point somwhere down in your post.

" In other words, with 6 cores already calculating complex physics, frame calculations, etc. there's almost no ROOM to create the AI that you so aptly want to remind me already exists (because I never said it DIDN'T already exist)"

Of course there is. Forza should be using the compute shaders for its physics, the jaguar has decent fp performance, but it would be an absolute waste to use the cpu for that and leave those alu's idle. Of course, it doesnt matter, because the ai isnt online anyways, its scripts are not generated until after the race is finished. Once its back on your machine and running in a race, it an offline script, just like any other static ai.

"
What I clearly said was "AI in GAMING", and I am perhaps wary of your dismissal of marketing because you are already missing keywords from my own "presentation" on the matter."

Those are called buzz words. I hate buzzwords.

"Sure, there are prototype AI tests."


You havent bothered to look into anything have you? Just so you know, I have a pdf outlining the drivatar process open since my second response to you. I get the feeling no one thinks I do that. Research 'their side'.


"Sure, DF is deceptively complex"

There is nothing deceptive about dwarf fortresses complexity. It is incredibly complex.

"but you said it yourself: AI in gaming has been almost utterly crap."

I can cut the hypocrisy with a knife. You do realize the reason I say that is because I am a huge hueristic learning machine buff right?

' Drivatars are a HUGE step above the crap AI we've been experiencing.'

Any hueristic solution is a huge step above static ai. Drivatars are not the most sophisticated use of hueristics around, like you are blatantly marketing. Not by a long shot. It seems like you are coming from a bubble where only AAAAAAAAAAA cinematic gaming exists, and nothing else in the world has ever happened.... But as far as racing games go, I have always enjoyed forza's hueristic adaption since the original Xbox. I, however, am not very pleased with the latest forza's production values on a system like the xbone. Its landscapes and backgrounds are downright cringeworthy in areas... But I digress...


"You'd believe it when some Drivatars purposely block and smash into you like their real life counterparts do (and I mean, that PERSON, as each Drivatar is customized AI to the driver's actual human behaviors), which is why I choose to drive defensively to not add to the Drivatars that are seriously racing trolls (inside turn cutting, pit maneuvers, brake checking)."

Again, talking as if I dont believe in hueristics...

1. That is actually false, drivatars are in fact, NOT customized around individual racers. It will send one out with your name on it, but its actually a correlation algorythm of common events recognized as performed by multiple users (Hopefully in the tens of thousands to millions, the more the better), the more users display a certain behavior, the higher priority is given to the selection. Thats actually the specific benefit and de facto reason for having a large server on a game like this, or in marketing misnomer and basically lying speak: 'teh power of ta cloud!'. Im surprised youve managed to avoid the only real benefit of the cloud (a server) this long, Ive been looking for a spot to talk about it for a while. (Since my post where I said I would)

2. Those bad behaviors are manually identified by staff, and removed from the selection pool, and blocked from being brought into the selection queue again, so you dont need to worry. Manual behavioral extinction. They would likely eventually go extinct on their own, as they would be found as unsuccsussful, but that would take a while, and they would show back up as often as trolls... well, are trolls.


Remember when I was talking about that mmorpg that did the hueristics expiriment? The reason it took 15-30 rounds to become effective is because the hueristics had to gather and test the behaviors, to select which ones were effective. Each round new positive behaviors were reinforced, and unsuccsessful behaviors were removed. When you have access to millions of people sending their data to a centralized server, that process can be greatly expediated. But its not because of some magical processing that the xbones cpu just cant handle and that you need a super computer for, its because you simply cant have a million people playing your xboxone.

Hueristics work best with as many lessons as you can throw at them. THis is why they work so well with dwarf fortress, which has a population of hundreds of thousands to millions (Plus the player) running around creating events that can change behavior. And what a server is good for. Again, that has nothing to do with the 'power of the cloud' as microsofts ridiculous marketing tries to put it. Its a data depository and delivery service, not some magical real time ai. Servers have a processors (Often every powerful ones) and can compute stuff (And often does) but its not super powerful like watson, a supercomputer, nor would it have to be, as it computes offline, with very time insensitive materials, and as such, can take as long as it wants. Good for generating scripts off line, or comparing generated scripts and drawing correlations (Which is what drivatars do) But, it is not. IS NOT.


IT.
IS.
NOT.

Real time AI responding online Which is the BS Microsoft, and now YOU are peddling. By the time its back on your xbox one, it is a static ai script. Once you race, it modifies it based on what you did, and sends it back into the cloud. Again, it is NOT an online adaptive AI., which is the LIE Microsoft and YOU are peddling.



"And to your final point of the MMORPG in which it took 15-30 rounds to consistently beat even humans, you proved my point without realizing it."

I dont think you actually have a point. I think you are confused, and creating imaginary battles, wheras anyone who disagrees with your incredibly enthusiastic support of microsofts cloud buzz marketing, is automatically attacking everything else in the world. You very clearly are not capable of distinguishing a hueristic learning machine from Microsofts cloud marketing.


"You went ahead and created an example I could have used to demonstrate the usefulness of cloud computing for the Xbox One. You probably are conveniently ignoring that an MMORPG is an MMO, hence, everyone plays on servers.[/quote]

Ignoring? No, how else was the information from the human players be centralized for processing? I guess it could have been lan, but it wasnt.

"MMOs are inherently "cloud" based by your definition, and thus are capable of employing exactly what I talked about into the general gaming industry, albeit maybe not at such an intense algorithm as to make the enemies "unbeatable"."


Unbeatable is easy, you dont need hueristics for that. Have you bothered to look up hueristics yet? And yes, clearly, as I am constantly saying cloud is just servers, servers, would in fact, be the cloud.

" It took 15-30 rounds to beat the humans because it did exactly as I stated: took common human behaviors, and computed a preparatory reaction."

That is the description of a hueristic learning machine, not the cloud. What I said was, that algorythm in itself has nothng to do with the cloud, which it doesnt. You are confusing the ai processing itself, ie hueristics, with a data collection, depository, and delivery service, ie the cloud.


" MMOs make this possible because everyone MUST connect to the server to play, and this makes data gathering easy. When many Xbox Ones are connected to the cloud, this makes every game an "MMO", with millions of players providing plenty of data. This takes me to the point I've made the entire time: imagine your MMO example employed (again, less aggressively) into the GENERAL GAMES WE PLAY. Get it now?"


lol. It was totally played, was a huge deal mod when it came out, and directly affected many developers who have cited it as a large impact on them INCLUDING.... Turn 10. Though I guess no one purely on the console scene would know anything about it. But thanks for never bothering to look it up. I am glad to say I took your side of argument with much more respect, as I have multiple interviews and documentation on drivatars in front of me. Yup. Computer science is still computer science and not magic. Still doesnt hurt to double check. Or you know... Check anything AT ALL.

"
In the end, as I mentioned in my first line, you will never falter in your way of seeing things, mostly because you think it's clearly above mine. As unnecessarily elitist as you are behaving, I will not continue this argument no matter what you come up with next in an attempt to "put me in my place", as you are clearly attempting to do so simply because you do not agree with the benefits the cloud can provide to the Xbox One (even though, repeating again, you gave a PERFECT example of what it CAN do without realizing it).
"
lol, the irony.

"I also have nothing against you personally, but would like to remind you that your behavioral supremacy is not the best way to learn about the world. Arguing with me is fine, as I actually love a good debate (because for every 1 thing I know, there are 10 things I don't), but placing yourself above me with no real, tangible purpose other than to believe you are better is highly narrowminded.


I believe in the truth. And loathe misinformation, which is where all conflicts with me arise. You are cheerleading for a company conglomerate that is NOTORIOUS for its misinformation campaigns, and has gotten caught red handed in several in just its videogame division, in just the past week. But the cloud BS is a HUUUUUGGGGEEE one from launch that they just keep bsing about, and you are peddling that BS. Yes, there are benefits to the cloud. No, they are nothing whatsoever remotely close to the straight lying BS Microsoft is constantly peddling.

Our issues arent with the cloud, we actually KNOW what the cloud will be capable of, and what it is capable of right now. We have a problem with BEING LIED TO, as if we were TOO STUPID to understand the things MS are saying to us are made up.

http://en.wikipedia....ainty_and_doubt

[/quote][/quote][/quote]

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#47 Raiden

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 05:52 AM

3Dude is just confirming what I have been told by a dev before and what I always believed and something PC gamers have had for a decade or so. It's a server no magic involved. So again I hold firm it's this generations Blast Processing.



#48 ZyroXZ2

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 11:04 AM

First things first: I've moved to a new video editing suite.  This is my first use of it, so I wouldn't mind some feedback on the new transitions!  The new software is still cheap, but far more advanced than what I was using before!
 
Of course, the important bit is what this video is about: it's also my first Xbox One game review!  So what do I think about the revival of the Killer Instinct franchise?  Watch it and find out!  :)
 
 
Enjoy!

Check out my entertainment gaming channel!

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Enjoy!  :laugh:


#49 Rockodoodle

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 07:09 PM

How would you compare it to Tekken or Injustice on the Wii U?  I like both of those games.



#50 KeptMyWiiUAndLeftTheForums

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 07:27 PM

How would you compare it to Tekken or Injustice on the Wii U?  I like both of those games.

I don't own it, but i can tell you it'll be a lot closer to Tekken than Injustice.


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#51 ZyroXZ2

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 04:43 PM

I know you all are busy with 'Destiny', but I've reviewed some Xbox One accessories! Get geared up! :)
 
 
P.S. 'Destiny' is currently installing on my Xbox One!

 

 

How would you compare it to Tekken or Injustice on the Wii U?  I like both of those games.

 

It's closer to Injustice with its combat speed and nature.  Tekken is more "style", Injustice is more "raw attack speed", and Killer Instinct falls more in line with raw attack speed combined with its signature combo system.

 

I don't own it, but i can tell you it'll be a lot closer to Tekken than Injustice.

 

See above, haha  :P


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#52 KeptMyWiiUAndLeftTheForums

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 04:45 PM

 

I know you all are busy with 'Destiny', but I've reviewed some Xbox One accessories! Get geared up! :)
 
 
P.S. 'Destiny' is currently installing on my Xbox One!

 

 

 

It's closer to Injustice with its combat speed and nature.  Tekken is more "style", Injustice is more "raw attack speed", and Killer Instinct falls more in line with raw attack speed combined with its signature combo system.

 

 

See above, haha  :P

 

Yeah I was looking at that comment when you liked it and I was like "What am I talking about? I must have gotten that backwards..."


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#53 ZyroXZ2

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 05:07 PM

So did I get my money's worth out of my steering wheel and stand setup with 'Forza Motorsport 5'? Watch and find out!
 
[See OP]

***AUTO-MERGED: Destiny Review! (9/23/14)***

 

Yup, I caved into the hype and gave 'Destiny' a whirl. So, how did it fare against all that hype that got non-believers like me to buy it?
 
[See OP]

 

***AUTO-MERGED: Let's Play with Jeremy! (10/7/14)***

 

I bring my first guest onto the Xbox "Hut" show, and allow him to try his skills at Forza Motorsport 5... with my steering wheel setup!  He's consequently also the first dude to come on my show as a guest!
 
As a player who's been using a controller, how well does he fare with a force feedback steering wheel?  Let's watch and find out!
 


***AUTO-MERGED: Forza Horizon 2 Review! (10/21/14)***

 

There's nothing quite like the unrealism of an arcade racer. But what if that was layered with sim racing characteristics, placed in a highly detailed and large open world, and spattered with lots of cars and various activities? What you have is this.
 
 
Also, my British apparently degrades drastically on 3 hours of sleep...

Edited by ZyroXZ2, 21 October 2014 - 05:07 PM.

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Enjoy!  :laugh:


#54 KeptMyWiiUAndLeftTheForums

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 01:40 AM

Hey what's that outro song for the forza horizon review? I rarely love drum n bass but when I do I really love it, and that sounded pretty good.


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#55 Mewbot

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 02:53 AM

We're not besties any more.



also I searched you NNID from the NFS vid (doc989) and it came up with a 15 year old. So yeah wut happened man.


Edited by R00bot, 22 October 2014 - 02:48 AM.

Y U READ THIS?...WHY IS THERE TEXT HERE? LOL WTF
       bi5tzqg.gif
 

                                 Wii U ID : R00bot


#56 ZyroXZ2

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:50 PM

Hey what's that outro song for the forza horizon review? I rarely love drum n bass but when I do I really love it, and that sounded pretty good.

 

It's the intro song to the game  :laugh:

 

We're not besties any more.



also I searched you NNID from the NFS vid (doc989) and it came up with a 15 year old. So yeah wut happened man.

 

Not sure if sarcastic... But if you aren't, you missed the episode announcing Miiverse artist art features, lol  :D


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#57 KeptMyWiiUAndLeftTheForums

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 01:01 AM

It's the intro song to the game  :laugh:

 

 

Not sure if sarcastic... But if you aren't, you missed the episode announcing Miiverse artist art features, lol  :D

lol was kind of hoping for a nname so I could look it up, but it's ok, managed to find it anyway :)


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#58 ZyroXZ2

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 11:11 AM

lol was kind of hoping for a nname so I could look it up, but it's ok, managed to find it anyway :)

 

Sorry, I didn't quite have the time to look around for it, hahaha  :P


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Enjoy!  :laugh:


#59 Rockodoodle

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 08:34 AM

I'll pick this up.... next year.  Looks cool but I still have a ton to play on some of my other XBone games, plus Smash, Bayonetta and Toad's Treasure Tracker this year.

 

 

 

 

 

So did I get my money's worth out of my steering wheel and stand setup with 'Forza Motorsport 5'? Watch and find out!
 
[See OP]

***AUTO-MERGED: Destiny Review! (9/23/14)***

 

Yup, I caved into the hype and gave 'Destiny' a whirl. So, how did it fare against all that hype that got non-believers like me to buy it?
 
[See OP]

 

***AUTO-MERGED: Let's Play with Jeremy! (10/7/14)***

 

I bring my first guest onto the Xbox "Hut" show, and allow him to try his skills at Forza Motorsport 5... with my steering wheel setup!  He's consequently also the first dude to come on my show as a guest!
 
As a player who's been using a controller, how well does he fare with a force feedback steering wheel?  Let's watch and find out!
 

***AUTO-MERGED: Forza Horizon 2 Review! (10/21/14)***

 

There's nothing quite like the unrealism of an arcade racer. But what if that was layered with sim racing characteristics, placed in a highly detailed and large open world, and spattered with lots of cars and various activities? What you have is this.
 
 
Also, my British apparently degrades drastically on 3 hours of sleep...

 



#60 Scumbag

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 02:09 PM

Think Driveclub is a lot more impressive visually but Horizon 2 is probably the better game.






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