168 replies to this topic

[Socalmuscle]

Oh, I see what you are talking about now. I dont really put to much care into scrutinizing low-mid lod assets, beyond do they transition to the close lod smoothly. Its kind of like concentrating on mid-far mipmaps. Although I dont think they are trying to be textured to look round. They look like they are supposed to be flat, thin rectangular prisms. With the hdr image based lighting they are using, if they wanted them to look round with the texture, the texture would look round as hell, as far as the texture is concerned anyways. Its shaded as if it were a flat peice of metal, and while I agree using that technique with something thats supposed to be round, like pipes is an eye sore, using it on something thats already supposed to be flat... doesnt look that out of place. At least the mid lod, looking at the picture on my monitor now, the far lod used on the last 2 sections actually DOES look pretty out of place. So yeah, totally. Still Im more concerned with how the transition to the close lod 3d model will be jarring or not, as you will never see the game from this angle as you will be on the track.If you are looking to run a critical eye on something, dont forget to also look at the nearest group of trees, they arent supposed to be flat like billboards.As for the shading on the left hand side, nope not a shadow, thats 100% Screen Space Ambient Occlusion, and a damn fine job at it too. Probably the best example of showing what ssao does for corners in terrain that ive seen in a long time.If only I could get an ssao off version it would easily replace this for obvious/easiest visualization of ssao.As its still a complex scene in frneo, but the ssao is really obvious and well done. And well, any active global illumination technique is the exact opposite of 'old school shading', even an approximation like ssao, and especially when its this well done.

I don't know man.

I hear you, but It's not a good example to me. It's pretty poorly done in the FRN screen. I'm guessing they'll revisit.

You don't see that on higher end titles on new consoles including wii u.

It's an effect more prominently seen on iOS games and 3ds titles.

Hopefully they balance it out. It's all I'm saying.

Of course, the ability is there. I'm guessing time is a HUGE factor.
A small team going for big team graphical quality. Almost unbelievable. But I'm guessing these guys crave that sort of thing.

Edited by Socalmuscle, 19 September 2014 - 05:17 PM.

[megafenix]

well, i have read the differences between displacement mapping and other techniques like bump mapping and normal mapping and in this picture its clear they are using dispalcement map

 

 

the difference is simple, bump mapping doesnt create geometry, it jst creates the illusion of a bump using lighting tricks

http://www.3dtutoria.../tutorial?id=10

"

What Is The Difference Between Displacement And Bump Maps?

A displacement map is real geometry (polygons), while a bump map is tricks of light to make it look like it has real geometry. Normal maps are like bump maps, as in the way they both trick the light, but normal maps actually change the surfaces normals and bend the light. Bump map renders faster but you do lose quality. Normal maps are used more in low poly games. Displacement maps, because of their longer render time, are mostly used on objects that need high level detail.
(NOTE; To see a bump map or a normals map in the view port, on the view port menu, go to shading>hardware texturing. Still on the view port rendering, now go to renderer>high quality rendering. Now you can see it in the view port.)

Bump Map

Bump map is best used for when adding "texture" to a model. Example; cloth, pores, surfaces that don't want to look 100% smooth, etc.

A displacement map generates real geometry, unlike some other features in Maya that just trick the bending of light. A displacement map can not be seen in high quality render mode in the view port, but you can convert a displacement map into real geometry you can physically see in the Maya view port.

 

"

 

Here is anoher good example with images

http://help.chaosgro...isplacement.htm

"

What is displacement mapping?

 

Displacement mapping is a technique for adding geometric detail to surfaces at render time. In contrast with bump mapping, which works by just changing the surface normal to create the illusion of surface detail, displacement mapping modifies the surface itself. Here is an example of the same object rendered with bump mapping and with displacement mapping:

 

                                      

 

                                     Original object                                                                                        Bump mapping

 

                                                             

                                                                                   Displacement mapping

 

 

In the case of displacement mapping, the surface is actually modified, which leads to correct outline, shadow and GI. In the case of bump mapping, although the surface appears modified, the outline and the shadow stay the same.

 

Note that displacement is different from other kinds of shading, since it needs to modify the actual object surface. Therefore an object must be displaced before it can be rendered. This is why in V-Ray displacement is represented with a modifier (although the modifier can take the displacement map from the object material).

 

"

 

limitaion of bump mapping vs dispalcement

https://diglib.eg.or...df.abstract.pdf

"

Bump mapping does not really alter the underlying geometry,
but only perturbs the normals on the surface. For small irregularities
on a surface, bump mapping is ideal, since it does not increase
the amount of geometry, but gives the impression of real textured
surfaces.

 

The limitation of bump mapping becomes obvious when
the surface is parallel to the viewer and the Bump does not create a
silhouette. Also as a surface moves in perspective space the shape
created in the viewers mind by the bump map will not occlude other
objects.

To add real geometric detail to a flat surface, displacement mapping,
first introduced by Cook [2], can be used

 

"

 

here we have examples with the limitation of normal maps and that they only fake geometry and silhoute does not change

 

 

on the other hand here we have the results with displacement mapping

http://stoneschool.c...2004/index.html

"

At left is the basic result: a plane with real displacement mapping. Note that this is not bump or normal mapping; it's true displacement mapping. The silhouette edge is correct, and there are internal occlusions from the displaced surfaces, neither of which you get from bump/normal mapping.

The trick to this is pretty much what the title says: it's doing a discretized ray cast within the volume of the maximum displacement in the GPU. The movie that comes along with the sketch has a pretty clear diagram about what they're doing.

 

"

 

We can clearly see in this picture that the rocks do have a true level of detail and that the meshes have correct outline, global ilumination and shadows(you can clearly see that the shadows of the rocks respect the the bumpy areas where bump mapping and normal mapping would not show the shadows of the simulated outline). Plus, eventhough some rocks are parallel to the view, the paralell surface of the rocks do have a corresponding  silhoutte for the bumps, normal mapping and bump mapping have a limitation that would not let them modify the silhoutte of the mesh and in parallel view is very obvious, not to mention that there are internal occlusions in the dispalced surfaces, something that is not possible neither with bump mapping nor with normal mapping

 

 

 

http://hypershadehan...splacement-map/

 

 

as for the possibility of being the work of parallax occlusion, well I at first considered it but hs a limitation with oblique angels that produce artifacts that we do not see here

look:

http://udn.epicgames...dedMapping.html

"

Parallax Occlusion mapping

Parallax occlusion mapping adds depth by ray tracing to find the correct texture coordinate based on the camera's view direction. This creates a true perspective correct depth to the material. The occlusion part also means that parts of the height map can occlude other parts which helps to increase the depth. Lastly with self shadowing, more artificial depth is added to the material. Parallax occlusion mapping however is very expensive and generally shouldn't be used everywhere.

 

 

 

The main problem with parallax occlusion mapping is that at oblique angles the ray tracing is often not precise enough to retrieve the correct height map. As you can in the image below, at oblique angles it is easy to have ray tracing miss the correct depth, or find the incorrect depth. This can be resolved by increasing the number of depth passes or by decreasing the height scale. Large height scale also cause the same problem.

 

 

 

"

 

 

Dispalcement maps dont have the oblique limitation and steep angles dont represent a probelm either, this and the explanation about the internal occlusion and the shadows that respect the bumpy areas of the surfaces, is why dispalcement map makes more sense for the rendering of the terrain, the mountains and rocks, and also nvidia concurs

http://www.nvidia.co...ssellation.html

"

DirectX 11 Tessellation

 

DirectX 11 Tessellation—what it is and why it matters

 

A displacement map is a texture that stores height information. When applied to a surface, it allows vertices on the surface to be shifted up or down based on the height information. For example, the graphics artist can take a slab of marble and shift the vertices to form a carving. Another popular technique is to apply displacement maps over terrain to carve out craters, canyons, and peaks.

 

"

 

As for tesselation?

Well, we can see that the terrain and the rocks have pretty good amount of small fine vertices pieces in the ground and the rocksproviding a good level of detail, and thats pretty much the work of tesselation; plus, there would be no benefit of using displacement without tesselation cause both need one and the other

http://www.nvidia.co...ssellation.html

"

DirectX 11 Tessellation

 

DirectX 11 Tessellation—what it is and why it matters

 

Like tessellation, displacement mapping has been around for a long time, but until recently, it has never really caught on. The reason is that for displacement mapping to be effective, the surface must be made up of a large number of vertices. To take the example of the marble carving—if the marble block were made up of eight vertices, no amount of relative displacement between them can produce the relief of a dragon. A detailed relief can be formed only if there are sufficient vertices in the base mesh to depict the new shape. In essence—displacement mapping needs tessellation, and vice versa.

With DirectX 11, tessellation and displacement mapping finally come together in a happy union, and already, developers on jumping on board. Popular games like Alien vs. Predator and Metro 2033 use tessellation to produce smooth-looking models, and developers at Valve and id Software have done promising work on applying these techniques to their existing game characters.

 

"

Edited by megafenix, 19 September 2014 - 10:07 PM.

[3Dude]

I don't know man.

I hear you, but It's not a good example to me. It's pretty poorly done in the FRN screen. I'm guessing they'll revisit.

You don't see that on higher end titles on new consoles including wii u.

It's an effect more prominently seen on iOS games and 3ds titles.

Hopefully they balance it out. It's all I'm saying.

Of course, the ability is there. I'm guessing time is a HUGE factor.
A small team going for big team graphical quality. Almost unbelievable. But I'm guessing these guys crave that sort of thing.

 

 

Seriously? At any point are you even going to ATTEMPT to read any material at all on what you are trying to argue about?

 

Ambient occlusion is NOT an effect that is 'usually used in ios games', in fact, it hasnt been used in ANY ios games, because until recently mobile phones havent had the power or battery to do it.

 

Modern combat 5 is the first actual game to do it, bragging out the wazoo for using the effect, and it hasnt even released yet. http://toucharcade.c...raphics-tricks/

 

 

Killzone shadow fall uses ambient occlusion, windwaker hd uses ambient occlusion, bayonetta 2 uses it, ryse son of rome uses it, infamous second son crows about using it in several interviews, the only people who dont brag about using ao as part of their global illumination solution, are using sparse voxel octree gi, but oh wait, no ps4 game out yet uses it because it can barely handle it, so the ps4 uses ambient occlusion instead.

 

It doesnt bother me that you have no idea what you are talking about. It does, however, bother me that youve argued this clueslessly about it, this long, without even ATTEMPTING to look up what you are arguing about, instead making up blatant lies like, 'hurrr thats an effect they use on cell phones!!!'

 

Thats crap. Do not lie to me because you dont feel like looking something up.

 

You dont understand how physical lighting works, and only notice a difference between how standard primitive local lighting works and thus think vastly superior global lighting is wrong. Its not.

 

Global illumination>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> local lighting.

 

That darkness where light doesnt bounce where the sand meets the concrete is physically correct, and fantastic use of ambient occlusion, which is NOT a 'cell phone only technique'.

 

Hell, anyone can look at any corner between walls in their house and see the effect ao simulates.

 

You have a LOT of reading to do.

 

 

 

Megafenix completely off topic really long post

 

 

1. Shin en THEMSELVES told you they arent using tesselation for the environment. https://mobile.twitt...99301386240?p=v

 

Thats it dude. Its not tesselated.

 

2. What does any of that have to do with ibl? 

3. Do you know what ibl is?

4. If you bothered to look up and copy vomit all that unrelated material, why didnt you just look up ibl?

 

Shin en said no to tesselation, here is why:

The wii u has geometry shaders, while its above and beyond ps3/xbone... Its not up to snuff to gcn architecture like xbone and ps4 are using, so, as shin en said, its not some crazy 'get tons of vertice detail for free card' like people seem to think. Geometry shaders CAN do some good tesselation, but its not their primary purpose, which is too evaluate primitives or interpolate values. Again, they can do it, but they are limited, there is an in process upper bounds on the number of output elements, and the execution must stay within the shader. Instancing can speed up the second issue, but any way you slice it, its not something you want to try and use on a large environment with geometry shaders, especially if you are going for a 60fps target, thats what tesselation shaders are for. Which shinen actually more or less said in an interview asking about tesselation.

 

It would, however, work pretty well with a small number of objects like say the in game vehicles. Its probably used for detail work on the close lod's of the vehicles.

[Mewbot]

*Techno babble*

[megafenix]

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously? At any point are you even going to ATTEMPT to read any material at all on what you are trying to argue about?

 

Ambient occlusion is NOT an effect that is 'usually used in ios games', in fact, it hasnt been used in ANY ios games, because until recently mobile phones havent had the power or battery to do it.

 

Modern combat 5 is the first actual game to do it, bragging out the wazoo for using the effect, and it hasnt even released yet. http://toucharcade.c...raphics-tricks/

 

 

Killzone shadow fall uses ambient occlusion, windwaker hd uses ambient occlusion, bayonetta 2 uses it, ryse son of rome uses it, infamous second son crows about using it in several interviews, the only people who dont brag about using ao as part of their global illumination solution, are using sparse voxel octree gi, but oh wait, no ps4 game out yet uses it because it can barely handle it, so the ps4 uses ambient occlusion instead.

 

It doesnt bother me that you have no idea what you are talking about. It does, however, bother me that youve argued this clueslessly about it, this long, without even ATTEMPTING to look up what you are arguing about, instead making up blatant lies like, 'hurrr thats an effect they use on cell phones!!!'

 

Thats crap. Do not lie to me because you dont feel like looking something up.

 

You dont understand how physical lighting works, and only notice a difference between how standard primitive local lighting works and thus think vastly superior global lighting is wrong. Its not.

 

Global illumination>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> local lighting.

 

That darkness where light doesnt bounce where the sand meets the concrete is physically correct, and fantastic use of ambient occlusion, which is NOT a 'cell phone only technique'.

 

Hell, anyone can look at any corner between walls in their house and see the effect ao simulates.

 

You have a LOT of reading to do.

 

 

 

 

 

1. Shin en THEMSELVES told you they arent using tesselation for the environment. https://mobile.twitt...99301386240?p=v

 

Thats it dude. Its not tesselated.

 

2. What does any of that have to do with ibl? 

3. Do you know what ibl is?

4. If you bothered to look up and copy vomit all that unrelated material, why didnt you just look up ibl?

 

Shin en said no to tesselation, here is why:

The wii u has geometry shaders, while its above and beyond ps3/xbone... Its not up to snuff to gcn architecture like xbone and ps4 are using, so, as shin en said, its not some crazy 'get tons of vertice detail for free card' like people seem to think. Geometry shaders CAN do some good tesselation, but its not their primary purpose, which is too evaluate primitives or interpolate values. Again, they can do it, but they are limited, there is an in process upper bounds on the number of output elements, and the execution must stay within the shader. Instancing can speed up the second issue, but any way you slice it, its not something you want to try and use on a large environment with geometry shaders, especially if you are going for a 60fps target, thats what tesselation shaders are for. Which shinen actually more or less said in an interview asking about tesselation.

 

It would, however, work pretty well with a small number of objects like say the in game vehicles. Its probably used for detail work on the close lod's of the vehicles.

 

and where exactly shinsn claims that they did not use tesselation or dispalcements(i have gone to the link and they dont mention anything you say)?

 

already shinen had said that they were preparing a game for wii u and they would use tesselation, and you can tell just by looking at the image that this game is using it; the level of detail of the rocks its pretty good and also there is internal occlusion and the silhoutte shadow corresponds pretty well with the bump areas, with normal mapping and bump mapping is not possible to achieve that, even less with objects that are parallel to our view; the geometry looks real, its not difficult to see that its not a trick of light that normal mapping and bump mapping use to fake it. We can also see that the terrain and the rocks have pretty good amount of vertices elswhere that give a good LOD, and to form finer pieces you need tesselation, and tessleation oftenly works along with displacment according to nvidia

 

parallex occlusion could have been a possibility if the terrain wasnt oblique. Oblique angels cause artifacts with parallex occlusion

Edited by megafenix, 19 September 2014 - 11:51 PM.

[3Dude]

and where exactly shinsn claims that they did not use tesselation or dispalcements(i have gone to the link and they dont mention anything you say)?

 

already shinen had said that they were preparing a game for wii u and they would use tesselation, and you can tell just by looking at the image that this game is using it; the level of detail of the rocks its pretty good and also there is internal occlusion and the silhoutte shadow corresponds pretty well with the bump areas, with normal mapping and bump mapping is not possible to achieve that, even less with objects that are parallel to our view; the geometry looks real, its not difficult to see that its not a trick of light that normal mapping and bump mapping use to fake it. We can also see that the terrain and the rocks have pretty good amount of vertices elswhere that give a good LOD, and to form finer pieces you need tesselation, and tessleation oftenly works along with displacment according to nvidia

 

parallex occlusion could have been a possibility if the terrain wasnt oblique. Oblique angels cause artifacts with parallex occlusion

 

So you have no idea what ibl is then.

 

Guy, you specifically said 'That must be tesselation' (from sand dunes 30 meters away, and a rock formation 500+ meters awat lol)

 

And they said ' We used a lot of 3D scanning. Great results but hard to work with >1GB files for a single mesh...' '. From these we process them to game compatible assets.'

 

 

Thats NOT tesselation guy, tesselation is the subdivision of primitives, into more vertices, in real time on the games runtime.

 

NOT scanning a real or high end 3d render image to get a result and then approximating it to usable game assets, thats image based.

 

Oh, and obviously ambient occlusion dingleberry, its not dependant on geometric complexity, and its not part of any texture map, and works from any visible angle.

 

 

Object and tangent space normal maps on a rock, no large depth of bumps.

 

 

Ambient occlusion added. Large craters appear.

 

 

 

 

 

and its angles. ANGLES, not angels, its not god powered graphics.

[megafenix]

So you have no idea what ibl is then.

 

Guy, you specifically said 'That must be tesselation' (from sand dunes 30 meters away, and a rock formation 500+ meters awat lol)

 

And they said ' We used a lot of 3D scanning. Great results but hard to work with >1GB files for a single mesh...' '. From these we process them to game compatible assets.'

 

 

Thats NOT tesselation guy, tesselation is the subdivision of primitives, into more vertices, in real time on the games runtime.

 

NOT scanning a real or high end 3d render image to get a result and then approximating it to usable game assets, thats image based.

 

Oh, and obviously ambient occlusion dingleberry, its not dependant on geometric complexity, and its not part of any texture map, and works from any visible angle.

 

 

Mind you, what if they used 3d scanning?

here

http://www.academia....acement_Mapping

"

Domain surface and a scalar displacement map

One application of displacement mapping that will be looked at more closely is displaced subdivision surfaces (Lee et al, 2000). It is used for describing surface of highly detailed models that are generated by 3D scanning devices. This method greatlyreduces memory requirements for the model, as it requires only a relatively simpledomain surface and a scalar displacement map.

"

Another example

http://research.micr...e/hoppe/dss.pdf

"

Displaced Subdivision Surfaces

ABSTRACT

In this paper we introduce a new surface representation, the

displaced subdivision surface. It represents a detailed surface

model as a scalar-valued displacement over a smooth domain

surface. Our representation defines both the domain surface and

the displacement function using a unified subdivision framework,

allowing for simple and efficient evaluation of analytic surface

properties. We present a simple, automatic scheme for converting

detailed geometric models into such a representation. The

challenge in this conversion process is to find a simple

subdivision surface that still faithfully expresses the detailed

model as its offset. We demonstrate that displaced subdivision

surfaces offer a number of benefits, including geometry

compression, editing, animation, scalability, and adaptive

rendering. In particular, the encoding of fine detail as a scalar

function makes the representation extremely compact.

 

1. INTRODUCTION 

Highly detailed surface models are becoming commonplace, in 

part due to 3D scanning technologies. Typically these models are 

represented as dense triangle meshes. However, the irregularity 

and huge size of such meshes present challenges in manipulation, 

animation, rendering, transmission, and storage. Meshes are an 

expensive representation because they store: 

(1) the irregular connectivity of faces,

(2) the (,,) coordinates of the vertices,

(3) possibly several sets of texture parameterization (,)coordinates at the vertices, and

(4) texture images referenced by these parameterizations, such as

color images and bump maps

 

An alternative is to express the detailed surface as a displacement

from some simpler, smooth domain surface (see Figure 1).

Compared to the above, this offers a number of advantages:

(1) the patch structure of the domain surface is defined by a

control mesh whose connectivity is much simpler than that of

the original detailed mesh;

(2) fine detail in the displacement field can be captured as a

scalar-valued function which is more compact than traditional

vector-valued geometry;

 

A simple example of a displaced surface is terrain data expressed

as a height field over a plane. The case of functions over the

sphere has been considered by Schröder and Sweldens [33].

Another example is the 3D scan of a human head expressed as a

radial function over a cylinder. However, even for this simple

case of a head, artifacts are usually detectable at the ear lobes,

where the surface is not a single-valued function over the

cylindrical domain.

 

The challenge in generalizing this concept to arbitrary surfaces is

that of finding a smooth underlying domain surface that can

express the original surface as a scalar-valued offset function.

We instead define the domain surface using subdivision surfaces, 

since these can represent smooth surfaces of arbitrary topological 

type without requiring control point constraints.

 

Our representation, the displaced subdivision surface, consists of a 

control mesh and a scalar field that displaces the associated 

subdivision surface locally along its normal (see Figure 1). In this 

paper we use the Loop [27] subdivision surface scheme, although 

the representation is equally well defined using other schemes 

such as Catmull-Clark [5].

"

 

Here you have a prctical use of 3d scanning with displacement

http://pixelsix.net/...tivePlay.3Dscan

"

3D Scanning

For my personal scanning results go to link

Friedrich's Milkscanner

The Milkscanner is a free tool that allows the scanning of objects and creates a Displacement map for use with Moviesandbox or any other 3D App that would allow for displacement mapping.

"

 

here is another if you dont like that one

http://www.surfacemimic.com/gallery/

"

Welcome!

Surface Mimic Sells 3D surface scans for digital artists in the Visual Effects and Video Game industries. Our surface scans are high resolution displacement, normal, and color diffuse .psd images

"

 

Considering the above and this reply from Shinen:

"

 

Shin'en Multimedia

@ShinenGames

@HylianCIA These were only the source data sizes. From these we process them to game compatible assets.

"

 

Its obvious that the 3d scanning would later be converted to compatible meshes and they would later process them with tesselation and other stuff

 

 

As for the rest you are claiming, there are level of detail you know, its obvious they are using displacements and tesselation cause the geometry feels real not a fake using lighting tricks like bump or normal maps which are easy to tell in parallel objects?

http://www.nvidia.co...-bundle-uk.html

 

 

 

so are you saying taht the rocks and mountains in fast racing neo look like the image in the left side?

 

 

 

here more examples

 

is the ground in fast racing neo plane or detailed ith true geometry?

 

 

you can also tell that is diplacment and not bump or normal mapping cuase these ast 2 just simulate depth with light and if you look closely looks plane specially in parallel objects, and also the shadows of the objects would not reflect the bumps on the edges while diplacement does; looking closely to the shadows we can see that hey in fact respect the bumps of the edges of the objects

 

Displacement mapping is a technique for adding geometric detail to surfaces at render time. In contrast with bump mapping, which works by just changing the surface normal to create the illusion of surface detail, displacement mapping modifies the surface itself.Here is an example of the same object rendered with bump mapping and with displacement mapping:

 

                                       

 

                                     Original object                                                                                        Bump mapping

 

                                                              

                                                                                   Displacement mapping

 

 

In the case of displacement mapping, the surface is actually modified, which leads to correct outline, shadow and GI. In the case of bump mapping, although the surface appears modified, the outline and the shadow stay the same.

 

Note that displacement is different from other kinds of shading, since it needs to modify the actual object surface. Therefore an object must be displaced before it can be rendered. This is why in V-Ray displacement is represented with a modifier (although the modifier can take the displacement map from the object material).

 

Sorry dude, you did this to you on your own

Edited by megafenix, 20 September 2014 - 09:59 AM.

[3Dude]

Extremely Common knowledge of unrelated techniques that actually hilariously debunk own claims in quoted text.

Still havent figured out what ibl is huh?

First off, Fast racing neo only gets around 920,600 (After scene culling) triangles a frame, roughly a triangle per pixel, as stated by Shin en themselves. You arent getting massively tesselated landscapes full of vertices and surface displacements like youve been hilariously posting pictures of, again, shin en said so themselves.

Shin'en: Tessellation itself is not resource heavy on recent GPUs but it depends on actual usage. Although even previous consoles had these features you saw it only very rarely used. People often think of it as an easy way to get free ‘level of detail’. That doesn’t work.

Its like they are speaking directly to you. They have already ruled out EXACTLY what you are delusionally proposing.

'We already tried various tessellation ideas and it is a very handy tool for certain situations.'

Certain situations is NOT spamming it on every single rock and crevice surface on a machine of the wii u's hardware caliber, again, like you are delusionally ranting about.
 
http://hdwarriors.co...upcoming-games/

Fast racing neo is fairly low poly, as expected as it only has 16ms per frame, but commands great use of instancing, extrapolating 300,000 instance out of 10,000 unique draw calls, with amazing lighting thanks to their use of ibl with global illumination in conjuction with... 3d scanning, the technique they stated was behind their art of balance curtain and scenes like the bed sheets level.




But, the proof is in the pudding, that no geometry is being added to fast racing neo's rock via tesselation, as they are all very obviously low poly meshes, easily identifiable by thier blocky sillouettes.



Made to look fantastic by the incredible pixel and post processing lighting work, as should be blatantly obvious as the trees even look pretty damn good thanks to the lighting and they are flat as cardboard.

[Socalmuscle]

Seriously? At any point are you even going to ATTEMPT to read any material at all on what you are trying to argue about?

Ambient occlusion is NOT an effect that is 'usually used in ios games', in fact, it hasnt been used in ANY ios games, because until recently mobile phones havent had the power or battery to do it.

Modern combat 5 is the first actual game to do it, bragging out the wazoo for using the effect, and it hasnt even released yet. http://toucharcade.c...raphics-tricks/


Killzone shadow fall uses ambient occlusion, windwaker hd uses ambient occlusion, bayonetta 2 uses it, ryse son of rome uses it, infamous second son crows about using it in several interviews, the only people who dont brag about using ao as part of their global illumination solution, are using sparse voxel octree gi, but oh wait, no ps4 game out yet uses it because it can barely handle it, so the ps4 uses ambient occlusion instead.

It doesnt bother me that you have no idea what you are talking about. It does, however, bother me that youve argued this clueslessly about it, this long, without even ATTEMPTING to look up what you are arguing about, instead making up blatant lies like, 'hurrr thats an effect they use on cell phones!!!'

Thats crap. Do not lie to me because you dont feel like looking something up.

You dont understand how physical lighting works, and only notice a difference between how standard primitive local lighting works and thus think vastly superior global lighting is wrong. Its not.

Global illumination>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> local lighting.

That darkness where light doesnt bounce where the sand meets the concrete is physically correct, and fantastic use of ambient occlusion, which is NOT a 'cell phone only technique'.

Hell, anyone can look at any corner between walls in their house and see the effect ao simulates.

You have a LOT of reading to do.








1. Shin en THEMSELVES told you they arent using tesselation for the environment. https://mobile.twitt...99301386240?p=v

Thats it dude. Its not tesselated.

2. What does any of that have to do with ibl?
3. Do you know what ibl is?
4. If you bothered to look up and copy vomit all that unrelated material, why didnt you just look up ibl?

Shin en said no to tesselation, here is why:
The wii u has geometry shaders, while its above and beyond ps3/xbone... Its not up to snuff to gcn architecture like xbone and ps4 are using, so, as shin en said, its not some crazy 'get tons of vertice detail for free card' like people seem to think. Geometry shaders CAN do some good tesselation, but its not their primary purpose, which is too evaluate primitives or interpolate values. Again, they can do it, but they are limited, there is an in process upper bounds on the number of output elements, and the execution must stay within the shader. Instancing can speed up the second issue, but any way you slice it, its not something you want to try and use on a large environment with geometry shaders, especially if you are going for a 60fps target, thats what tesselation shaders are for. Which shinen actually more or less said in an interview asking about tesselation.

It would, however, work pretty well with a small number of objects like say the in game vehicles. Its probably used for detail work on the close lod's of the vehicles.

Don't need to read what I already know.

And that doesn't look like ambient occlusion to me. If it is, they are applying it much differently than say to the mountain/hill models where they meet the ground where the lighting is the same.

Seriously? At any point are you even going to ATTEMPT to read any material at all on what you are trying to argue about?

Ambient occlusion is NOT an effect that is 'usually used in ios games', in fact, it hasnt been used in ANY ios games, because until recently mobile phones havent had the power or battery to do it.

Modern combat 5 is the first actual game to do it, bragging out the wazoo for using the effect, and it hasnt even released yet. http://toucharcade.c...raphics-tricks/


Killzone shadow fall uses ambient occlusion, windwaker hd uses ambient occlusion, bayonetta 2 uses it, ryse son of rome uses it, infamous second son crows about using it in several interviews, the only people who dont brag about using ao as part of their global illumination solution, are using sparse voxel octree gi, but oh wait, no ps4 game out yet uses it because it can barely handle it, so the ps4 uses ambient occlusion instead.

It doesnt bother me that you have no idea what you are talking about. It does, however, bother me that youve argued this clueslessly about it, this long, without even ATTEMPTING to look up what you are arguing about, instead making up blatant lies like, 'hurrr thats an effect they use on cell phones!!!'

Thats crap. Do not lie to me because you dont feel like looking something up.

You dont understand how physical lighting works, and only notice a difference between how standard primitive local lighting works and thus think vastly superior global lighting is wrong. Its not.

Global illumination>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> local lighting.

That darkness where light doesnt bounce where the sand meets the concrete is physically correct, and fantastic use of ambient occlusion, which is NOT a 'cell phone only technique'.

Hell, anyone can look at any corner between walls in their house and see the effect ao simulates.

You have a LOT of reading to do.








1. Shin en THEMSELVES told you they arent using tesselation for the environment. https://mobile.twitt...99301386240?p=v

Thats it dude. Its not tesselated.

2. What does any of that have to do with ibl?
3. Do you know what ibl is?
4. If you bothered to look up and copy vomit all that unrelated material, why didnt you just look up ibl?

Shin en said no to tesselation, here is why:
The wii u has geometry shaders, while its above and beyond ps3/xbone... Its not up to snuff to gcn architecture like xbone and ps4 are using, so, as shin en said, its not some crazy 'get tons of vertice detail for free card' like people seem to think. Geometry shaders CAN do some good tesselation, but its not their primary purpose, which is too evaluate primitives or interpolate values. Again, they can do it, but they are limited, there is an in process upper bounds on the number of output elements, and the execution must stay within the shader. Instancing can speed up the second issue, but any way you slice it, its not something you want to try and use on a large environment with geometry shaders, especially if you are going for a 60fps target, thats what tesselation shaders are for. Which shinen actually more or less said in an interview asking about tesselation.

It would, however, work pretty well with a small number of objects like say the in game vehicles. Its probably used for detail work on the close lod's of the vehicles.

What is seen in that screen is not present in higher end games on any of the new consoles, but IS on phones and mobiles. If it is ambient occlusion, it is an overzealous implementation that ruins the reality simulation the effect is supposed to achieve.

I don't think this is ambient occlusion at work either. Not in the actual area I'm referring to.

This isn't the inside of the structure. It's the OUTSIDE. where there is no need for a darker appearance/shadow. Where lighting wouldn't affect it. Not angles or corner. Literally spread out over the texture for quite a ways. And in a manner that doesn't jibe with the lighting. Capice?

Look at where the other geometrical structures meet the ground where the lighting is the same. There is a proper realistic shading from AO. Not this, which doesn't feature anywhere else.

If it is AO, they are using different calculations in that area and its a poor implementation. Needs to be refined so as not to look "cheap" while the rest of the scene looks great.

Let's keep it real here.

Edited by Socalmuscle, 20 September 2014 - 08:37 PM.

[3Dude]

Don't need to read what I already know.

And that doesn't look like ambient occlusion to me. If it is, they are applying it much differently than say to the mountain/hill models where they meet the ground where the lighting is the same.



What is seen in that screen is not present in higher end games on any of the new consoles, but IS on phones and mobiles. If it is ambient occlusion, it is an overzealous implementation that ruins the reality simulation the effect is supposed to achieve.

I don't think this is ambient occlusion at work either. Not in the actual area I'm referring to.

This isn't the inside of the structure. It's the OUTSIDE. where there is no need for a darker appearance/shadow. Where lighting wouldn't affect it. Not angles or corner. Literally spread out over the texture for quite a ways. And in a manner that doesn't jibe with the lighting. Capice?

Look at where the other geometrical structures meet the ground where the lighting is the same. There is a proper realistic shading from AO. Not this, which doesn't feature anywhere else.

If it is AO, they are using different calculations in that area and its a poor implementation. Needs to be refined so as not to look "cheap" while the rest of the scene looks great.

Let's keep it real here.

 

 

Every. single. ps4/xbone game out currently uses ambient occlusion.

 

http://www.fxguide.c...se-son-of-rome/

 

For some reason, you think lighting should be calculated uniformily across an entire environment, this is primitive, wrong and backwards. That is local illumination. This is GLOBAL illumination, with the lighting data painstakingly scanned from an actual image/extremely high fidelity render SPECIFICALLY to ensure the environments lighting is NOT uniformily calculated, because real life is NOT uniformly lit. Welcome to image based lighting.

 

Those other structures WONT be suffering the same light occlusion for a number of different reasons.

 

1. The main light source is coming at them from a different angle, because they are in very different positions.

2. They are at a different angle relationship from to the ground, one that does not occlude light from entering nearly as much. While the concrete is sloped over the sand, and the sand is sloping down instead of level, creating a light occluding funnel.

3. The rocks you are talking about are similar colors to the sand, a light tan as opposed to a concrete grey, their ambient reflection will have little noticable effect, while the concretes ambient reflection will add more.

3. There are no other objects nearby the big rocks, while the concrete slab has tons of objects diffusing and occluding light before it ever makes it to the concrete.

4. The angle from those objects to the camera/eye is very different, as they are in very different places to each other.

 

You have a LOT of reading to do.

[NintendoReport]

*update* Megaphenix asked shin en about tesselation and got a response, good job phenix!

@ megafenix64 2d
@ShinenGames wow, the geometry looks
so real and shadows seem to respect the
bumpy areas of the silhouette,must likely
tessellation work
View details ·
Shin'en Multimedia
@ ShinenGames
1d
@megafenix64 @ShinenGames We used a lot of 3D scanning. Great results but

hard to work with >1GB files for a single
mesh...

 

 

Mind you, what if they used 3d scanning?

 

 

3dude and Shinen ALREADY ANSWERED YOUR FREAKING QUESTION, NUMEROUS TIMES.

[3Dude]

*update* Megaphenix asked shin en about tesselation and got a response, good job phenix!

@ megafenix64 2d
@ShinenGames wow, the geometry looks
so real and shadows seem to respect the
bumpy areas of the silhouette,must likely
tessellation work
View details ·
Shin'en Multimedia
@ ShinenGames
1d
@megafenix64 @ShinenGames We used a lot of 3D scanning. Great results but

hard to work with >1GB files for a single
mesh...

 

 

 

 

3dude and Shinen ALREADY ANSWERED YOUR FREAKING QUESTION, NUMEROUS TIMES.

 

 

Yeah, hes not pulling the repeating the same exact crap over and over and over again here. Any copy pasta repeats are getting hidden with a label explaining why. 

 

This isnt IGN Fenix, you arent going to fill 25 damn pages with the same exact crap post about the same exact damn rock, ignoring everything that proves you wrong along the way.

 

If you want another 'repeat zone', as cloud succinctly put it in response to your obnoxious nonsense, go back to ign. You arent turning this thread, into THIS:

 

http://www.ign.com/b...775697/page-267

[Mewbot]

Megafenix you're repeating yourself. If it didn't work the first time, it won't work the second time.

[Xiombarg]

Please stop spamming this thread with meaningless responses and off topic videos

[Raiden]

well can he stop posting his garbage in every topic he posts in? Every time he comes back he just derails and goes all caps and argues with 3dude for 10 pages.

Edited by Ryudo, 21 September 2014 - 07:43 PM.

[KeptMyWiiUAndLeftTheForums]

*starts chant*

ban hammer, ban hammer, ban hammer...

[Raiden]

*starts chant*

ban hammer, ban hammer, ban hammer...

[3Dude]

As I stated before you started your crap parade fenix, any repeats that ignore their answers and just repost the same erroneous misunderstood copy pastas that have already been answered and debunked will be hidden, and labeled as the spam they are. This isnt IGN where you can repeat the same damn post for 25 pages of obnoxious eyesores.

If you cant figure out a way around the last post (because its reality) then try a different subject.

[Socalmuscle]

Every. single. ps4/xbone game out currently uses ambient occlusion.

http://www.fxguide.c...se-son-of-rome/

For some reason, you think lighting should be calculated uniformily across an entire environment, this is primitive, wrong and backwards. That is local illumination. This is GLOBAL illumination, with the lighting data painstakingly scanned from an actual image/extremely high fidelity render SPECIFICALLY to ensure the environments lighting is NOT uniformily calculated, because real life is NOT uniformly lit. Welcome to image based lighting.

Those other structures WONT be suffering the same light occlusion for a number of different reasons.

1. The main light source is coming at them from a different angle, because they are in very different positions.
2. They are at a different angle relationship from to the ground, one that does not occlude light from entering nearly as much. While the concrete is sloped over the sand, and the sand is sloping down instead of level, creating a light occluding funnel.
3. The rocks you are talking about are similar colors to the sand, a light tan as opposed to a concrete grey, their ambient reflection will have little noticable effect, while the concretes ambient reflection will add more.
3. There are no other objects nearby the big rocks, while the concrete slab has tons of objects diffusing and occluding light before it ever makes it to the concrete.
4. The angle from those objects to the camera/eye is very different, as they are in very different places to each other.

You have a LOT of reading to do.

Nice strawman.

Not saying it's not there.

Saying that's not an example of it. I've even carefully explained exactly where I'm referring too...

But keep playing your little charade.

Edited by Socalmuscle, 23 September 2014 - 08:37 PM.

[3Dude]

Nice strawman.

Not saying it's not there.

Saying that's not an example of it. I've even carefully explained exactly where I'm referring too...

But keep playing your little charade.

You specifically said that 'they must be calculating it differently there' as if not using uniform lighting was a negative. Look, just circle the area you are talking about, and comparing it too on a screenshot and post it up so we can be sure we are talking about the same thig. Although you may not care anymore because youll be too busy looking at this: