31 replies to this topic

[Atticus]

Does anyone have any...? I'm not the best player and any would probably help that isn't super obvious. This might be beneficial to others to and I know this is the Wii U games board but it's out in about a month on Wii U and looks to play exactly like the 3DS version, so yeah... Might be helpful to share?

[xile6]

just gotta keep playing.

I find it better to only press one button at a time and get use to the moved and then more on to 2 buttons.

I have a problem with the pad it just doesnt move like i want it to so sometimes my inputs dont show up.

but try the 100 smash mini game.

[NintendoReport]

An obvious tip would be to stick with a character and learn all the "ins" and "outs" . With the large roster it is very tempting to try everyone at the start.

[TheUltimateWaddleDee]

Try out a whole lot of characters until you find a few that you like, then learn what works with those characters. A lot of the technical skill (needing to perform 10 inputs a second for l-cancelling and such) was removed, so the thing to know to be good is what the characters can do.

[Raiden]

Press buttons on the controller.

[YoshiGamer9]

Figure out all the different things you can do with each character, try different button combos, go to the training thing to test out your skills on a dummy.

[KeptMyWiiUAndLeftTheForums]

No items, Final Destination, Fox only.

[xile6]

Press buttons on the controller.

Lol this made my day.

[NintendoReport]

Press buttons on the controller.

[Atticus]

Well there's kind of general stuff I'm wondering about that isn't character specific. Basic stuff. What in your opinion is the best way handle these situations...?

 

 

Scenario 1: Every time you are coming down from being smashed upwards your opponent always gets right under you and keeps smashing up or jump attacks upward at you until you K.O. If you can't land out of the way is there a better way to come down on your opponent? I try to air-dodge as they jump attack upwards at me but after the dodge I think I'm left defenseless for a second and upon landing they knock me away again anyway making the air-dodge in that scenario pretty much useless (it seems). On the other hand, if I come down attacking 9/10 times my opponent's upward attack seems to connect first (or maybe just eats through my attack).

 

Scenario 2: Your opponent is hanging on the ledge in front of you. What's your next move?

 

Scenario 3: Same as scenario 2 but the roles are reversed. You're on the ledge and your opponent is in front of you. What's your next move?

[xile6]

Well there's kind of general stuff I'm wondering about that isn't character specific. Basic stuff. What in your opinion is the best way handle these situations...?
 
 
Scenario 1: Every time you are coming down from being smashed upwards your opponent always gets right under you and keeps smashing up or jump attacks upward at you until you K.O. If you can't land out of the way is there a better way to come down on your opponent? I try to air-dodge as they jump attack upwards at me but after the dodge I think I'm left defenseless for a second and upon landing they knock me away again anyway making the air-dodge in that scenario pretty much useless (it seems). On the other hand, if I come down attacking 9/10 times my opponent's upward attack seems to connect first (or maybe just eats through my attack).
 
Scenario 2: Your opponent is hanging on the ledge in front of you. What's your next move?
 
Scenario 3: Same as scenario 2 but the roles are reversed. You're on the ledge and your opponent is in front of you. What's your next move?

Well I normally use kirby.
So if I'm falling down i do the DOWN B move and he drops like a rock.
If I'm handing and there on the edge. U try to jump up and do an attack Y + A
If there handing on the edge I step back some and wait for them to get up then attack.

[NintendoReport]

Well I normally use kirby.
So if I'm falling down i do the DOWN B move and he drops like a rock.
If I'm handing and there on the edge. U try to jump up and do an attack Y + A
If there handing on the edge I step back some and wait for them to get up then attack.

 

 

Haha, I use Kirby too. I agree, with Kirby that is the best move for Scenario 1. The other advantage with Kirby is that he's a floater so that can be used in a variety of ways to both initiate an attack or be defensive.

 

Even though the scenario's are general Atticus I would say it's hard to give a generalized answer since each character would be capable of doing something different.

 

In a 4 player match, if someone is hanging on the edge sometimes I tend to maneuver back to the middle of the stage because 9 out of 10 times, the other 2 players will attack the person hanging. This allows an opening to then attack them. Of course in a 1 vs 1, the thinking should be the total opposite.

Edited by Sorceror12, 19 October 2014 - 06:00 AM.

[Chrop]

Haha, I use Kirby too. I agree, with Kirby that is the best move for Scenario 1.

You guys wouldn't last a round in a tournament. Down B in that scenario is the worst move.

[NintendoReport]

You guys wouldn't last a round in a tournament. Down B in that scenario is the worst move.

And your move is?

[Atticus]

You guys wouldn't last a round in a tournament. Down B in that scenario is the worst move.

 

What would be the best then?

 

 

Haha, I use Kirby too. I agree, with Kirby that is the best move for Scenario 1. The other advantage with Kirby is that he's a floater so that can be used in a variety of ways to both initiate an attack or be defensive.

 

Even though the scenario's are general Atticus I would say it's hard to give a generalized answer since each character would be capable of doing something different.

 

In a 4 player match, if someone is hanging on the edge sometimes I tend to maneuver back to the middle of the stage because 9 out of 10 times, the other 2 players will attack the person hanging. This allows an opening to then attack them. Of course in a 1 vs 1, the thinking should be the total opposite.

 

Yes, I should have clarified I'm talking about one on one scenarios, not too worried about psychology with multiple opponents.

 

I know it's hard to generalize as some characters likely have advantages in that area based on move-set but for anyone giving advice for me try to pretend as if your playing with a character for the first time knowing almost nothing about their move-set. If you can, advise what you would probably do instinctively... If that makes any sense (But character specific is fine to).

[tboss]

Well there's kind of general stuff I'm wondering about that isn't character specific. Basic stuff. What in your opinion is the best way handle these situations...?

 

 

Scenario 1: Every time you are coming down from being smashed upwards your opponent always gets right under you and keeps smashing up or jump attacks upward at you until you K.O. If you can't land out of the way is there a better way to come down on your opponent? I try to air-dodge as they jump attack upwards at me but after the dodge I think I'm left defenseless for a second and upon landing they knock me away again anyway making the air-dodge in that scenario pretty much useless (it seems). On the other hand, if I come down attacking 9/10 times my opponent's upward attack seems to connect first (or maybe just eats through my attack).

 

Scenario 2: Your opponent is hanging on the ledge in front of you. What's your next move?

 

Scenario 3: Same as scenario 2 but the roles are reversed. You're on the ledge and your opponent is in front of you. What's your next move?

 

 

 

the answer to all 3 of those scenarios are fairly character specific.  so for general hints:

 

scenario 1: is your opponent consistent in which style of attack he uses. If so, you can easily counter/dodge/juke/ ect. fast falling makes it harder for him to time, landing moves to get to the ground also help, unless you are fighting a good opponent.  You will also be often forced to use a defensive move on the way down, which one depends on your character. Also the way he will attack you on your decent varies by character, some will attempt to jump beside you and forward/back air you instead for example. forward/back/neutral/down airs can be used to counter, again which depends on your character.   Another solution is to stay off the stage and attempt to recover from the left/right. This sometimes works well, but can also make recoveries tougher, depending on the matchup.

 

scenario 2/3: its usually a bad idea to stand right on top of him, so dont do it unless you plan on using a attack that will knock him off the ledge. You can stand back and attempt to punish whatever recover technique he attempts. The spacing for this is again, character specific. Also be aware of projectiles and methods to cover horozontal distance, like fox's side B and luigi's side B. Some good players will just drop, jump, re-grabe or attack. Be Careful of jumping back on as this may be the easiest to punish to spikes and counter attacks, works best if you have good airs to respond with. the drop and jump allows you to do varies attacks from right above the height of the ledge, and also increases your options, including re-grabbing. Also look at your enemies possition, a general hint is: right above you, default attack, some distance: use any but be careful, far: jump, chances are he will try to gimp with ranged attacks.

 

Most important, learn from experience, and get a main.

[Chrop]

And your move is?

 

What would be the best then?

Either move away to the left or right and Up-B, forcing a range between you and the opponent as you land as the move sends a wave along the floor, making the opponent either move away, dodge or jump over the move,

You can use UP-B to go near the edge and grab the edge instead of landing on the floor itself,

You can go stright down towards your opponent, airdodge out of his attack then counter attack.

If you down B, your oppnent can simply dodge, grab and throw you, if he's a good player then you've basically give him a free attack on you. Down B has too much lag for it to be reliable, it's used for situational areas, for example your opponent used a move with a lot of lag behind it or freefalling, making it and easy target (for example, nesses UP-B )

Edited by Chrop, 19 October 2014 - 10:56 AM.

[KeptMyWiiUAndLeftTheForums]

Lol this thread

For scenario 1:

Chrop is kind of right. Down B with Kirby is a bad idea (probably not your worst option, but a bad one). Against scrubs it'll work, but any half-decent player will see it coming from a mile away, dodge, and punish you when you land (dat ending lag so stronk).

There are only two answers that apply to all characters.

1. Basically you just have to play more and understand people's psychology so you can predict what they're going to do, when you'll have priority vs when you won't, etc. There's no shortcut to this unfortunately , and even after you've played for a long  long time, there are still going to be instances where getting back on solid footing is going to be a hard, frustrating experience. As you said yourself some characters are better than others at getting back and some are better than others at keeping people in the air/juggling (Zelda for example, is terrible at juggling compared to someone like captain falcon or falco (at least that's how it was in brawl)).

 

2.lern2tek (learn to tech/tech roll). Teching/tech rolling is a very easy, but very useful "advanced" technique. It'll give you the ability jump back up from being in tumble animation or roll either left or right out of tumble animation. This comes in useful when the stage has platforms. Since they're raised off the ground, if you stay in tumble and then tech/tech roll when you hit one of the platforms, it'll give your opponent less time to hit you, and once you get to a platform, and you have the ability to tech, tech roll left or tech roll right, it (sometimes) forces the your opponent to have to guess which one you're going to pick, and puts them in a position of pressure  since if they miss, you'll be up and suddenly you're either on equal playing field or you have the advantage.

 

Scenario 2/3:

So my knowledge for ledge game is limited to previous iterations of smash. My understanding is that it's changed quite a bit, but I think the changes mainly affected situation where both players are off the stage. Anyway, my point is to take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

You/your opponent have/has 4ish options for getting back on stage:

1.  Press an attack move. This will make your character climb onto the stage and attack from the ground. I think how many frames this takes to execute changes depending on your percent (it's possible I'm wrong and that's limited to get up moves).

2. Roll. Pressing the dodge buttons will make your character get onto the stage and instantly roll a certain length towards the middle of the stage. During the roll they have invincibility frames I believe.

3. Jump off the ledge and either attack or dodge.

4. Drop off the ledge. In previous iterations, you could always re-attach yourself but it's my understanding that's not the case any more, so this probably isn't your best option.

Technically there's also the option to just get onto the stage, but that's considered a non option. The only thing it's really good for is mind games.

Now, if you're on the stage waiting for your opponent. you're playing a guessing game. You're trying to anticipate which of these options they're going for so that you can be waiting for them and punish.

I'll brake it down really simply. Generally you really want to be taking note of what your opponent's go-to choice is so you can stand where you need to, wait for them to do their thing and punish how you please. However it's pretty hard for most people (myself included) to actively take note of these things, especially if you're not playing the same opponent for several matches in a row, or your opponent is purposely switching it up. So, this is where practice is going to e necessary again. There's essentially a kind of sweetspot to stand at. There's a certain length from the ledge where you're just beyond the reach of a getup attack, but you can also move fast enough to grab or punish them if they roll. If they jump you're out of their reach and now you're below them, so you have the advantage, an if they drop off, well then it doesn't really matter cause they'll either just have to come back to the ledge or drop to their death.

Now the other option is a lot more risky. It's another thing you're only really going to be able to do through practice. And even then there will rarely be a good opportunity to use this (against a decent player) and even if you have the opportunity, it's not guaranteed to work. However, it is hecka satisfying, and can make edge game way more fun.

As you may or may not know, when you grab the ledge, you're granted a certain number of frames of invincibility. My understanding is that in smash four the number of frames has dropped fairly significantly, so i guess it might make this option a little more viable.

Basically what you do is you wait for their invincibility frames to run out, and then you jump off the stage, to be either above or beside them. You then use an attack on the unsuspecting victim and either knock them off the ledge so you can take it from them, or hopefully you'll manage to spike or stage spike them and just straight u get the kill.

I wish ledge game was that simple, but there are also a bunch of inbetweens, and mind game options. Fr example, you could stand in the sweetspot to force them to wait until their invincibility frames are about to run out, take a couple different options.

If you think they're going to use a jump recovery, jump/shorthop (if you don't know what that is it's asically a small jump, as the name implies. Incredibly useful thin to know, so I would recommend looking up if you don't) above their head and spike, or if you don't have a spike, jump so you're right over the edge of the stage, so when they jump you're inbetween them and the stage, and can use an attack to send them back out  away from the stage. Another good thing about this option is that if you predict wrong and they use a getup attack, you generally still tend to have the advantage, since there attack will either miss while leaving them open from your attack directly above them, or you'll be diagonally above them, but since they've used getup attack, there will be enough ending lag that you'll probably have enough time to still more towards them and get a hit in.

The disadvantages are, if they use a roll, then you're now on the outside and they're at the advantage, is they drop off the ledge, depending on how quickly the attack you used is over and how much ending lag there is, they can put themselves at the advantage. Also, if you had to run towards the ledge a little to get off (which often happens, since different characters have different reach into the stage)and they've called what you're about to do/baited ou into it then they can getup attack, and probably hit you, or they might even be able to jump before you do and and use it to attack you.

 

So yeah, as you can see, ledge game be complicated as heck, and a lot of this stuff you're just going to have to pick up from playing against other good people (at least if you want to be able to do it reliably).

If you've got any questions just ask. Seriously, ask anything, I'm happy to help. Even if you have questions about other situations in smash.

And if this is really convoluted and hard to understand; my bad. It's really weird for me to try and right out al the options like this since first of all, I do a lot of this stuff as second nature now. I genuinely don't really "think" about it, this I just kind of "know" it. Also, like I said, there are actually so many other little options (for example Luigi can use his taunt to spike someone without invincibility frames, several other characters can poke people with down tilts, etc) and since there are so many, a lot, and I mean a lot of this jus comes down to mind games. And I can't even begin to explain mindgames. That's something that just comes naturally from experience (but when you start to understand them, my word watching pro smash becomes incredible. I amd generally at a loss to explain why. The only thing I can think of is the matrix, where it's like two levels going on at the same time, what you're actually seeing, and the "coding" that you can't normally see unless you're the chosen one lol).

Gah, I'm gonna stop talking now. This is what happens whenever people get me started on smash. This is why I love the game so goshdarn much. On the outside it looks and can function as a party game but when you really get into it and understand it, it is without a doubt one of the most complex fighters on the market.

Sorry for gushing like a fan girl. I just literally can't even.

Edited by WydrA, 19 October 2014 - 02:04 PM.

[tboss]

on another note,  is there someone your considering as a main, preferably someone you enjoy using and is a good fit for how you play.

[Atticus]

Lol this thread

For scenario 1:

Chrop is kind of right. Down B with Kirby is a bad idea (probably not your worst option, but a bad one). Against scrubs it'll work, but any half-decent player will see it coming from a mile away, dodge, and punish you when you land (dat ending lag so stronk).

There are only two answers that apply to all characters.

1. Basically you just have to play more and understand people's psychology so you can predict what they're going to do, when you'll have priority vs when you won't, etc. There's no shortcut to this unfortunately , and even after you've played for a long  long time, there are still going to be instances where getting back on solid footing is going to be a hard, frustrating experience. As you said yourself some characters are better than others at getting back and some are better than others at keeping people in the air/juggling (Zelda for example, is terrible at juggling compared to someone like captain falcon or falco (at least that's how it was in brawl)).

 

2.lern2tek (learn to tech/tech roll). Teching/tech rolling is a very easy, but very useful "advanced" technique. It'll give you the ability jump back up from being in tumble animation or roll either left or right out of tumble animation. This comes in useful when the stage has platforms. Since they're raised off the ground, if you stay in tumble and then tech/tech roll when you hit one of the platforms, it'll give your opponent less time to hit you, and once you get to a platform, and you have the ability to tech, tech roll left or tech roll right, it (sometimes) forces the your opponent to have to guess which one you're going to pick, and puts them in a position of pressure  since if they miss, you'll be up and suddenly you're either on equal playing field or you have the advantage.

 

Scenario 2/3:

So my knowledge for ledge game is limited to previous iterations of smash. My understanding is that it's changed quite a bit, but I think the changes mainly affected situation where both players are off the stage. Anyway, my point is to take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

You/your opponent have/has 4ish options for getting back on stage:

1.  Press an attack move. This will make your character climb onto the stage and attack from the ground. I think how many frames this takes to execute changes depending on your percent (it's possible I'm wrong and that's limited to get up moves).

2. Roll. Pressing the dodge buttons will make your character get onto the stage and instantly roll a certain length towards the middle of the stage. During the roll they have invincibility frames I believe.

3. Jump off the ledge and either attack or dodge.

4. Drop off the ledge. In previous iterations, you could always re-attach yourself but it's my understanding that's not the case any more, so this probably isn't your best option.

Technically there's also the option to just get onto the stage, but that's considered a non option. The only thing it's really good for is mind games.

Now, if you're on the stage waiting for your opponent. you're playing a guessing game. You're trying to anticipate which of these options they're going for so that you can be waiting for them and punish.

I'll brake it down really simply. Generally you really want to be taking note of what your opponent's go-to choice is so you can stand where you need to, wait for them to do their thing and punish how you please. However it's pretty hard for most people (myself included) to actively take note of these things, especially if you're not playing the same opponent for several matches in a row, or your opponent is purposely switching it up. So, this is where practice is going to e necessary again. There's essentially a kind of sweetspot to stand at. There's a certain length from the ledge where you're just beyond the reach of a getup attack, but you can also move fast enough to grab or punish them if they roll. If they jump you're out of their reach and now you're below them, so you have the advantage, an if they drop off, well then it doesn't really matter cause they'll either just have to come back to the ledge or drop to their death.

Now the other option is a lot more risky. It's another thing you're only really going to be able to do through practice. And even then there will rarely be a good opportunity to use this (against a decent player) and even if you have the opportunity, it's not guaranteed to work. However, it is hecka satisfying, and can make edge game way more fun.

As you may or may not know, when you grab the ledge, you're granted a certain number of frames of invincibility. My understanding is that in smash four the number of frames has dropped fairly significantly, so i guess it might make this option a little more viable.

Basically what you do is you wait for their invincibility frames to run out, and then you jump off the stage, to be either above or beside them. You then use an attack on the unsuspecting victim and either knock them off the ledge so you can take it from them, or hopefully you'll manage to spike or stage spike them and just straight u get the kill.

I wish ledge game was that simple, but there are also a bunch of inbetweens, and mind game options. Fr example, you could stand in the sweetspot to force them to wait until their invincibility frames are about to run out, take a couple different options.

If you think they're going to use a jump recovery, jump/shorthop (if you don't know what that is it's asically a small jump, as the name implies. Incredibly useful thin to know, so I would recommend looking up if you don't) above their head and spike, or if you don't have a spike, jump so you're right over the edge of the stage, so when they jump you're inbetween them and the stage, and can use an attack to send them back out  away from the stage. Another good thing about this option is that if you predict wrong and they use a getup attack, you generally still tend to have the advantage, since there attack will either miss while leaving them open from your attack directly above them, or you'll be diagonally above them, but since they've used getup attack, there will be enough ending lag that you'll probably have enough time to still more towards them and get a hit in.

The disadvantages are, if they use a roll, then you're now on the outside and they're at the advantage, is they drop off the ledge, depending on how quickly the attack you used is over and how much ending lag there is, they can put themselves at the advantage. Also, if you had to run towards the ledge a little to get off (which often happens, since different characters have different reach into the stage)and they've called what you're about to do/baited ou into it then they can getup attack, and probably hit you, or they might even be able to jump before you do and and use it to attack you.

 

So yeah, as you can see, ledge game be complicated as heck, and a lot of this stuff you're just going to have to pick up from playing against other good people (at least if you want to be able to do it reliably).

If you've got any questions just ask. Seriously, ask anything, I'm happy to help. Even if you have questions about other situations in smash.

And if this is really convoluted and hard to understand; my bad. It's really weird for me to try and right out al the options like this since first of all, I do a lot of this stuff as second nature now. I genuinely don't really "think" about it, this I just kind of "know" it. Also, like I said, there are actually so many other little options (for example Luigi can use his taunt to spike someone without invincibility frames, several other characters can poke people with down tilts, etc) and since there are so many, a lot, and I mean a lot of this jus comes down to mind games. And I can't even begin to explain mindgames. That's something that just comes naturally from experience (but when you start to understand them, my word watching pro smash becomes incredible. I amd generally at a loss to explain why. The only thing I can think of is the matrix, where it's like two levels going on at the same time, what you're actually seeing, and the "coding" that you can't normally see unless you're the chosen one lol).

Gah, I'm gonna stop talking now. This is what happens whenever people get me started on smash. This is why I love the game so goshdarn much. On the outside it looks and can function as a party game but when you really get into it and understand it, it is without a doubt one of the most complex fighters on the market.

Sorry for gushing like a fan girl. I just literally can't even.

 

This is exactly what I wanted... general strategies. I really appreciate the detail as well. For sure putting any of this into effect and feeling out what is best for me with whatever character will only come with experience but getting all the ideas of things I can do is valuable. Also what exactly is tech/tech rolling?