160 replies to this topic

[3Dude]

DexterousGecko, on 16 Apr 2013 - 02:04, said:I wonder how many people there are in the world who believe that everyone BUT them is crazy?
Also, on a serious note, Linguistically, words have different meanings (whether or not they are official or written down) for different groups of people. In some parts of some countries (not naming names) some groups of people talk with what other people would consider "bad" grammar. Does this make their speech any less valid or meaningful? Of course not. The meaning of what they are saying can still be grasped by any rational human being who speaks the same basic language.
Everyone is still debating with me over the definition of the word, when you know full well that a lot of people have an expanded definition of the word. Would everyone be happy if people said, "Nintendo's next gen is the same power as Sony and Microsoft's last gen"? Because that is what a lot of people are saying, and I haven't seen proof to the contrary.
There, I won't say next gen anymore, I'll just say Nintendo's next gen.



Theres no such thing as an expanded definition, that doesnt have its actual definition defined somewhere oficial. Its either an actual definition, or Its a small group of people making rainbow up to make what they like look better while rainbowting on something else.

Find an actual definition, or its just a bunch of silly ponys circle jerking (it is).

Thats it. There is nothing else. Again, there are constantly tons of stupid people who are wrong. It doesnt matter how many stupid people you have, its still wrong. The earth is not flat.

[DexterousGecko]

lol, i love you man. You see whats in front of you and that's it eh? fair enough. "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" ^^

 

Peace buddy

[3Dude]

DexterousGecko, on 16 Apr 2013 - 02:19, said:lol, i love you man. You see whats in front of you and that's it eh? fair enough. "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" ^^
Peace buddy


Whats in front of me? More like the past three decades following the actual definition of generation for console generation, and a couple of silly ponys trying to change the definition ONLY FOR THE LAST GEN AND NOW soley to rainbow on nintendo and make their tiny pegasus generator feel an inch longer.

you little rainbowters cant just Wii up something that has been going on since before you were born, and only change one thing soley to rainbow on nintendo AND NOT TOUCH THE REST OF THE THIRTY YEARS OF CONSOLE GENERATIONS THAT WOULD NEED TO BE RECATEGORIZED, just so you can crap on nintendo.

freaking morons.

http://en.wikipedia....eo_game_console

Edited by 3Dude, 16 April 2013 - 08:23 AM.

[routerbad]

I own a Deluxe Wii U and I've stuck with it and I'm keeping it at this point, but I question when all those great games will be here.  2 years?  The console seriously may not survive that long.  People don't give a crap about promises anymore and nobody is buying this thing.  I know all the game that are "coming", but Rayman Legends was coming (still is at some point).  Games are either being canceled or being announced as "not coming" to Wii U it seems every week.  Like I said, I won't be ditching the Wii U at this point, but I can easily see myself just waiting until every game I want for it drops to $10 or $15 (or $25 for first party titles) and just spend my money and credit on PS4. 

There are also tons of games on Kickstarter that are adding Wii U as a stretch goal or a default platform every week, but not the PS4 or nextbox.

I wonder how many people there are in the world who believe that everyone BUT them is crazy?

 

Also, on a serious note, Linguistically, words have different meanings (whether or not they are official or written down) for different groups of people. In some parts of some countries (not naming names) some groups of people talk with what other people would consider "bad" grammar. Does this make their speech any less valid or meaningful? Of course not. The meaning of what they are saying can still be grasped by any rational human being who speaks the same basic language.

 

Everyone is still debating with me over the definition of the word, when you know full well that a lot of people have an expanded definition of the word. Would everyone be happy if people said, "Nintendo's next gen is the same power as Sony and Microsoft's last gen"? Because that is what a lot of people are saying, and I haven't seen proof to the contrary.

 

There, I won't say next gen anymore, I'll just say Nintendo's next gen.

Why don't you just stop playing games and call it what it is, 8th gen.  Your opinion on what counts as next gen doesn't change the meaning of the term that has been used for nearly three decades now.

 

Also, its really only the new school gamers, which I take it you are, that are having issues with accepting the definition of the term generation.  There is no expanded definition of the word, it is what it is, and redefining a word based on confirmation bias does not make it correct.  

[Goodtwin]

There are also tons of games on Kickstarter that are adding Wii U as a stretch goal or a default platform every week, but not the PS4 or nextbox.

 

Yea, I am jacked up for Battle World Kronos.  There are so many genre's that have taken a back seat over the years.  Turn based strategy games being among them.  It really seems like Nintendo has worked harder with the Wii U to be attractive to Indies, way more so than the bigger publishers.  I personally feel like Nintendo better identifys with Indies, not so much in the business practice sense, but their ideals when it comes to game creation seem to be very similar.  On the business side of things Nintendo has had to make major changes, but they have done that, and if rumors are true, they are even handing out dev kits for free to select developers. 

 

I am also interested in the Road Rash inspired successor.  I loved Road Rash back in the SNES/Genesis days, and think that playing a similar game online would be a blast.  You know what else would be great, a game like Vigilante 8.  How is it that online first person shooters are so popular but vehicle shooters are all but dead.  The great thing about Kickstarted is that when a Indie developer thinks a forgotten genre is due for a comback, they can go to Kickstarted to make sure their is sufficient demand. 

[routerbad]

Yea, I am jacked up for Battle World Kronos.  There are so many genre's that have taken a back seat over the years.  Turn based strategy games being among them.  It really seems like Nintendo has worked harder with the Wii U to be attractive to Indies, way more so than the bigger publishers.  I personally feel like Nintendo better identifys with Indies, not so much in the business practice sense, but their ideals when it comes to game creation seem to be very similar.  On the business side of things Nintendo has had to make major changes, but they have done that, and if rumors are true, they are even handing out dev kits for free to select developers. 

 

I am also interested in the Road Rash inspired successor.  I loved Road Rash back in the SNES/Genesis days, and think that playing a similar game online would be a blast.  You know what else would be great, a game like Vigilante 8.  How is it that online first person shooters are so popular but vehicle shooters are all but dead.  The great thing about Kickstarted is that when a Indie developer thinks a forgotten genre is due for a comback, they can go to Kickstarted to make sure their is sufficient demand. 

Agreed 100%.  BWK looks awesome, and I can't wait for them to start porting it over, another one that I pledged to was Guns of Icarus, and they are working to release their new game on Wii U as well.

[Goodtwin]

On a side not, did anyone ever come to a conclusion on the Wii U GPU?  It seems that over at neogaf and beyond3d they are sepculating that the GPU is only a 160SPU gpu instead of the 320 that people orginally thought.  I guess that would bring the gflops to about 175, quite a bit less than the 252gflop 360 gpu.  That doesnt really add up since every developer has said that the GPU is a bit more powerful.  Is this even possible?  I know a lot of fixed function stuff was originally throw around, could we have a GPU that relies more heavily on its fixed function qualities rather than its SPU's?  I dont discredit these guys seeing as how the HD5550 blows away current gen consoles, so if the Wii U were to have a GPU with the same specs, its hard to believe that even unoptimized ports would have trouble running better than current gen consoles.  Afterall, PC games arent optimized.  Anyone feel like we have anything that can be considered conclusive? 

[routerbad]

On a side not, did anyone ever come to a conclusion on the Wii U GPU?  It seems that over at neogaf and beyond3d they are sepculating that the GPU is only a 160SPU gpu instead of the 320 that people orginally thought.  I guess that would bring the gflops to about 175, quite a bit less than the 252gflop 360 gpu.  That doesnt really add up since every developer has said that the GPU is a bit more powerful.  Is this even possible?  I know a lot of fixed function stuff was originally throw around, could we have a GPU that relies more heavily on its fixed function qualities rather than its SPU's?  I dont discredit these guys seeing as how the HD5550 blows away current gen consoles, so if the Wii U were to have a GPU with the same specs, its hard to believe that even unoptimized ports would have trouble running better than current gen consoles.  Afterall, PC games arent optimized.  Anyone feel like we have anything that can be considered conclusive? 

There is no way they would be using a 160 SPU GPU.  It doesn't make any sense with anything we've seen on the system, and it would have to be based on a much older version of the AMD Unified shader achitecture.  The GPU is based on the HD6XXX series (most likely using the SIMD engines from the E6760).  They can say what they want at this point, there is no way we are ever coming close to an actual performance number that tells the whole story.

 

The problems with unoptimized ports was that they never used the GPU's features at all.  Stuff I know you are already well aware of.  PC games are typically optimized for their recommended specs, or optimized based on a particular platform (some openGL games on PC run better on AMD than Nvidia, etc).  There is optimization going on, but it is always a moving target on PC.

 

I'm pretty comfortable with 352GFLOPS with additional "fixed-function" support.  The developers that someone at Neogaf talked to directly wouldn't call it fixed function, because he said it didn't quite work that way, but called it "dedicated silicon" which could mean a shader that is more suited to a particular task but could be re purposed if necessary.

Edited by routerbad, 16 April 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[Goodtwin]

I kind of think the 352Gflops has to be apretty close as well since it makes more sense with what developers have said.  You have to wonder how many features developers didnt even realize were there and are sitting idle in most games.  Kind of like when the Toki Tori developer said they discovered a feature on the gpu shaved off 100MB of texture memory usage.  When you think about that, its kind of a WTF moment.  How could those features not be spelled out in detail to developers?  But apprently they werent.  Even with Need for Speed Wii U, that game went from a port struggling to perform up to 360/PS3 standards to easily surpassing it in a very short period of time once Nintendo got them updated info and tools.  In a way, I think the GPU in the Wii U is no different than trying to compared the Gamecube/Wii gpu to an off the shelf part.  You can try to do it, but things will never line up quite right.  Thats why even if the Wii U were to only have 160SPU's, how do you ever deterimine what the "dedicated silicon" accounts for?  For all we know, the dedicated silicon is just as important, kind of like the TEV in the GC/Wii GPU was very important to making the best looking GC/Wii games possible. 

[dragomix]

I think that GPU is in 500gflops range, but it has 8ROPS, so there will be no complex 1080p games, but it should kick ass in 720p... Lego CITY is showing this!

[MorbidGod]

If I'm so crazy about making new definitions for old words then why is there such a debate about the Wii U being next gen? If EVERYONE agreed with your definition of "next gen" then this wouldn't be an argument. You have to see that you're using the word to suit your purposes just as everyone else is using it to suit their purpose.

the Wii U is next generation Nintendo, but until it proves it's superior to the ps360, it will never be "next gen" in ps360 fans eyes. Heck, I'm willing to bet that even when and if it shows it's superior, most gamers won't call Nintendo next gen, but that's a different story.

Again, we aren't talking about what is or is not more powerful. Was Metriod Prime 3 truly the next Metroid game, even though Halo 3 was better looking? In your logic, Metroid Prime 3 must have been an older game and the real next Metroid Is going to be the Wii U version.

Isn't that just dumb to think of? Look, you and other people can twist meaning all you want - and it's not like the English language isn't full of these examples - but we have been clear from the get go: our definition of next generation is the next product for a company. Power doesn't necessarily mean anything. It can, and has sometimes gone hand to hand, but doesn't always go together. I've given multiple examples in this thread, if I had time I'd repeat myself.

But I don't, so good bye for now!

[routerbad]

I kind of think the 352Gflops has to be apretty close as well since it makes more sense with what developers have said.  You have to wonder how many features developers didnt even realize were there and are sitting idle in most games.  Kind of like when the Toki Tori developer said they discovered a feature on the gpu shaved off 100MB of texture memory usage.  When you think about that, its kind of a WTF moment.  How could those features not be spelled out in detail to developers?  But apprently they werent.  Even with Need for Speed Wii U, that game went from a port struggling to perform up to 360/PS3 standards to easily surpassing it in a very short period of time once Nintendo got them updated info and tools.  In a way, I think the GPU in the Wii U is no different than trying to compared the Gamecube/Wii gpu to an off the shelf part.  You can try to do it, but things will never line up quite right.  Thats why even if the Wii U were to only have 160SPU's, how do you ever deterimine what the "dedicated silicon" accounts for?  For all we know, the dedicated silicon is just as important, kind of like the TEV in the GC/Wii GPU was very important to making the best looking GC/Wii games possible. 

With many of the developers, Nintendo didn't start giving in depth support until early this year, this meant no documentation, no feature list, no support.  Developers were given a dev unit and expected to figure out the system profile on their own.  Bad move on Nintendo's part, because that doesn't instill confidence at the developer level in the platform.

 

They've started to change that, releasing more information and offering more support to developers.  They are also practically giving away Unity licensing, which is going to lead to lots and lots of indie development on the platform, especially considering the Wii U will support the full feature set of the Unity engine.

 

Adding HTML5 support is icing, and it will allow apps to be ported from the mobile space, as well as the PC space.

 

As for the GPU and it's dedicated silicon, it is very important.  People always seem to forget that FLOPS only tell part of the story, and specs that never get talked about, like fillrate, MT/s, and feature support are just as important as FLOPS.  There are alot of SIMD operations that are working on floating points on a GPU in a game, but not all of them by a long shot.  Dedicated silicon can mean any number of things, but anything that allows developers to put those FLOPS to good use without the need to waste them on particular shader operations is a good thing, and change the performance profile of the chip.  For Toki Tori 2, I have no idea what they were able to do, and it does come across as a WTF moment, because 100MB of texture storage is absolutely enormous.

I think that GPU is in 500gflops range, but it has 8ROPS, so there will be no complex 1080p games, but it should kick ass in 720p... Lego CITY is showing this!

One of the posters on GAF, bgassasin, has acquaintances in the industry that were working with the Wii U and claimed that they were, from their perspective, looking at somewhere between 600GFLOPS to 1TFLOP of effective performance, but couldn't really specify much more.  Keep in mind this is purely heresay and anecdotal evidence at best.

[MorbidGod]

On a side not, did anyone ever come to a conclusion on the Wii U GPU? It seems that over at neogaf and beyond3d they are sepculating that the GPU is only a 160SPU gpu instead of the 320 that people orginally thought. I guess that would bring the gflops to about 175, quite a bit less than the 252gflop 360 gpu. That doesnt really add up since every developer has said that the GPU is a bit more powerful. Is this even possible? I know a lot of fixed function stuff was originally throw around, could we have a GPU that relies more heavily on its fixed function qualities rather than its SPU's? I dont discredit these guys seeing as how the HD5550 blows away current gen consoles, so if the Wii U were to have a GPU with the same specs, its hard to believe that even unoptimized ports would have trouble running better than current gen consoles. Afterall, PC games arent optimized. Anyone feel like we have anything that can be considered conclusive?

My opinion is the Wii U has at least an ATI HD 5xxx Series, or more like an AMD HD 6xxx Series. Which in terms of PC GPU, puts the Wii U a generation below the others coming this year. Then again, depending on the specs, that may be a small leap as GPU generations usually are.

[routerbad]

My opinion is the Wii U has at least an ATI HD 5xxx Series, or more like an AMD HD 6xxx Series. Which in terms of PC GPU, puts the Wii U a generation below the others coming this year. Then again, depending on the specs, that may be a small leap as GPU generations usually are.

Based on the ALU organization, it's a dead ringer for an HD6XXX series GPU.  That's just the ALU's, though, the rest of the GPU is completely custom.

[MorbidGod]

Based on the ALU organization, it's a dead ringer for an HD6XXX series GPU. That's just the ALU's, though, the rest of the GPU is completely custom.

Very true.

[tboss]

With many of the developers, Nintendo didn't start giving in depth support until early this year, this meant no documentation, no feature list, no support.  Developers were given a dev unit and expected to figure out the system profile on their own.  Bad move on Nintendo's part, because that doesn't instill confidence at the developer level in the platform.

 

They've started to change that, releasing more information and offering more support to developers.  They are also practically giving away Unity licensing, which is going to lead to lots and lots of indie development on the platform, especially considering the Wii U will support the full feature set of the Unity engine.

 

Adding HTML5 support is icing, and it will allow apps to be ported from the mobile space, as well as the PC space.

 

As for the GPU and it's dedicated silicon, it is very important.  People always seem to forget that FLOPS only tell part of the story, and specs that never get talked about, like fillrate, MT/s, and feature support are just as important as FLOPS.  There are alot of SIMD operations that are working on floating points on a GPU in a game, but not all of them by a long shot.  Dedicated silicon can mean any number of things, but anything that allows developers to put those FLOPS to good use without the need to waste them on particular shader operations is a good thing, and change the performance profile of the chip.  For Toki Tori 2, I have no idea what they were able to do, and it does come across as a WTF moment, because 100MB of texture storage is absolutely enormous.

One of the posters on GAF, bgassasin, has acquaintances in the industry that were working with the Wii U and claimed that they were, from their perspective, looking at somewhere between 600GFLOPS to 1TFLOP of effective performance, but couldn't really specify much more.  Keep in mind this is purely heresay and anecdotal evidence at best.

 

600gb/1tf effective performance, guess that is ruffly 550GF at 90/95% vs other stuff at 50-70%. 

 

but i do hope that ends up being true, did he claim what development studio claimed that?

[Goodtwin]

Based on the ALU organization, it's a dead ringer for an HD6XXX series GPU.  That's just the ALU's, though, the rest of the GPU is completely custom.

 

What were you able to compare it to inorder to see that it matches a HD6XXX?  Did you have a die shot of one of those chips? 

[routerbad]

600gb/1tf effective performance, guess that is ruffly 550GF at 90/95% vs other stuff at 50-70%. 

 

but i do hope that ends up being true, did he claim what development studio claimed that?

He couldn't say, NDA's and all.

What were you able to compare it to inorder to see that it matches a HD6XXX?  Did you have a die shot of one of those chips? 

In the GPU die thread there is a comparison between the HD6XXX ALU's and the Wii U ALUs, they match up for size and organization and are developed on the same process.

[Goodtwin]

If there really is a lot of "dedicated silicon" stuff going on with the GPU, then this is going to show up at e3.  Basically, we should have a better understanding on just how much logic is built in once Retro shows off their game.  It drive's me crazy that Nintendo is always so far behind with providing developers the tools and information out of the gate.  Just imagine if the Wii U had launched with all the launch ports getting the same treatment that Need for Speed got, and that would be just stractching the surface of the power.  Its very unfortunate, it has put consumer perception in a very dark place compared to what it should be. 

[MorbidGod]

If there really is a lot of "dedicated silicon" stuff going on with the GPU, then this is going to show up at e3. Basically, we should have a better understanding on just how much logic is built in once Retro shows off their game. It drive's me crazy that Nintendo is always so far behind with providing developers the tools and information out of the gate. Just imagine if the Wii U had launched with all the launch ports getting the same treatment that Need for Speed got, and that would be just stractching the surface of the power. Its very unfortunate, it has put consumer perception in a very dark place compared to what it should be.

I don't think the outcome will be different. People seem to hate Nintendo. It's either you love them or hate them. No in between.

Just watch. After E3, assuming we see Retro's game and I am right that it's going to look awesome, people will still say the PS4 looks better. Even though it probably won't.