123 replies to this topic

[3Dude]

You're right, it seems to be VLIW5. They are saying that 320 shader ops is most likely, which would be 352 GFLOPS.

These numbers are just unreliable man.

First off, if they claim its 80 vliw5 units, thats 800 ops per second @ 10 ops a cycle.

even if its vliw4, its 400 ops at 5 per clock. (xenos 48*5=240) not 320.

Also, those gflops only consider that specific logic on the gpu, not the rest of it, including the majority they cant figure out.

Its not wise to hold onto that hand when the 'known' info changes daily.

Especially with whats about to be shown any time now.

[routerbad]

These numbers are just unreliable man.

First off, if they claim its 80 vliw5 units, thats 800 ops per second @ 10 ops a cycle.

even if its vliw4, its 400 ops at 5 per clock. (xenos 48*5=240) not 320.

Also, those gflops only consider that specific logic on the gpu, not the rest of it, including the majority they cant figure out.

Its not wise to hold onto that hand when the 'known' info changes daily.

Especially with whats about to be shown any time now.

I keep trying to say that judging performance just based on shader performance is iffy, it only tells a very small part of the story.  I also showed what Sony claimed as the total power of RSX, to show how little that number meant in the long run.

[BrosBeforeGardenTools]

I'm willing to let a lot of my ideas go at this point, without feeling "dominated" or anything. I have computer experience but this is some truely technical, expert stuff we are getting into.

Thanks to 3Dude/routerbad for the posts. Basically the Wii U seems to me like the PS2 but not as bad, developers need to learn to develop for it. It will be really difficult to top the PS4 but I guess no one is really arguing that.

I think I'm starting to understand that the Wii U could potentially be pretty powerful. I hope so anyway.

[DexterousGecko]

So now that the Wii U is PROVEN to be totally bada$$, and probably better than the PS4, let's see those next gen games!!!

[3Dude]

Amnesia, on 09 May 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:I'm willing to let a lot of my ideas go at this point, without feeling "dominated" or anything. I have computer experience but this is some truely technical, expert stuff we are getting into.

Thanks to 3Dude/routerbad for the posts. Basically the Wii U seems to me like the PS2 but not as bad, developers need to learn to develop for it. It will be really difficult to top the PS4 but I guess no one is really arguing that.

I think I'm starting to understand that the Wii U could potentially be pretty powerful. I hope so anyway.



Heh, I dont think its going to be pretty powerful, then again, i dont think any console is going to be pretty powerful in the context of every generation past.

But i dont think nintendos going to be left behind as bad as the narrative people are trying to paint.

For example, a lot of the stuff these dismissive guys are bowsting, like destructable objects that they couldnt figure out or didnt have enough power to do this gen....

Were done by nintendo on the wii in games like excite truck (not bots), wii sports resort, and skyward sword. Using a scaled down version of the same technique. dynamically generated displacement maps used to procedurally subdivide polygons (tesselation).

This is why excite truck has unique crashes that conform to the size shape direction and impact magnitude of whatever hits the truck, making for crashes that are 100% unique everytime, while motorstorm on ps3 uses damage model swaps that are the same everytime. Even with all that power over the wii, they didnt have the know how.

This is why you can cut objects into any shape in sports resort and skyward sword, and why you can use a wind blower to change the sand environment any way in skyward sword.

And that was with a single core 750cle.

Now they have a tricore 750gx/fx, and a gpu with a ridiculously fast connection to the cpu enabling, encouraging very easy gpgpu functionality.

Hell, luigis mansion uses tesselation and thats on 3ds (used for things like morphing a block of ice into a face).

Theres a reason nintendo has included tesselators since the gamecube. They use tesselation. (wind wakers water animation with the boat was done with tesselation, as were the waves).

A lot of people dont realize that. Nintendos going to be okay with the power of the wii u. Even if third parties try and dismiss it, Theyll just look stupid when nintendo shows their proprietary dmm like solution with the power of something, anything more powerful than wii behind it. And the wii u is a hell of a lot more powerful than wii.

[GAMER1984]

Amnesia, on 09 May 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:I'm willing to let a lot of my ideas go at this point, without feeling "dominated" or anything. I have computer experience but this is some truely technical, expert stuff we are getting into.
Thanks to 3Dude/routerbad for the posts. Basically the Wii U seems to me like the PS2 but not as bad, developers need to learn to develop for it. It will be really difficult to top the PS4 but I guess no one is really arguing that.
I think I'm starting to understand that the Wii U could potentially be pretty powerful. I hope so anyway.
Heh, I dont think its going to be pretty powerful, then again, i dont think any console is going to be pretty powerful in the context of every generation past.
But i dont think nintendos going to be left behind as bad as the narrative people are trying to paint.
For example, a lot of the stuff these dismissive guys are bowsting, like destructable objects that they couldnt figure out or didnt have enough power to do this gen....
Were done by nintendo on the wii in games like excite truck (not bots), wii sports resort, and skyward sword. Using a scaled down version of the same technique. dynamically generated displacement maps used to procedurally subdivide polygons (tesselation).
This is why excite truck has unique crashes that conform to the size shape direction and impact magnitude of whatever hits the truck, making for crashes that are 100% unique everytime, while motorstorm on ps3 uses damage model swaps that are the same everytime. Even with all that power over the wii, they didnt have the know how.
This is why you can cut objects into any shape in sports resort and skyward sword, and why you can use a wind blower to change the sand environment any way in skyward sword.
And that was with a single core 750cle.
Now they have a tricore 750gx/fx, and a gpu with a ridiculously fast connection to the cpu enabling, encouraging very easy gpgpu functionality.
Hell, luigis mansion uses tesselation and thats on 3ds (used for things like morphing a block of ice into a face).
Theres a reason nintendo has included tesselators since the gamecube. They use tesselation. (wind wakers water animation with the boat was done with tesselation, as were the waves).
A lot of people dont realize that. Nintendos going to be okay with the power of the wii u. Even if third parties try and dismiss it, Theyll just look stupid when nintendo shows their proprietary dmm like solution with the power of something, anything more powerful than wii behind it. And the wii u is a hell of a lot more powerful than wii.

I get what you are saying 3dude but it comes down to games. No matter what Nintendo shows at E3 the general public is going to believe Wii U isn't powerful enough to run frostbite 2/3. I think Nintendo or another developers(ubisoft, platinum, crytek, capcom, activision) has to show a modern engine pushing the damn system. People always expect a console maker to get the most out of their system. So Nintendo showing things wouldn't surprise people they made the damn console they should know how to squeeze things out of it. The word of mouth is killing Wii U right now. Talk is cheap at this point Nintendo has to show some fancy a$$ graphics at E3 from a 3rd party game. Someone has to call EA out (Nintendo wont) like crytek and say bull we have cry engine 3 running n Wii U here is the proof and its more CPU intensive than your frostbite engine so try again and stop the damn excuses Wii U owners and gamers deserve better. But talking positively about Wii U and its hardware for major developers seem to be against the law so I doubt we will see it happen.

[Goodtwin]

I get what you are saying 3dude but it comes down to games. No matter what Nintendo shows at E3 the general public is going to believe Wii U isn't powerful enough to run frostbite 2/3. I think Nintendo or another developers(ubisoft, platinum, crytek, capcom, activision) has to show a modern engine pushing the damn system. People always expect a console maker to get the most out of their system. So Nintendo showing things wouldn't surprise people they made the damn console they should know how to squeeze things out of it. The word of mouth is killing Wii U right now. Talk is cheap at this point Nintendo has to show some fancy a$$ graphics at E3 from a 3rd party game. Someone has to call EA out (Nintendo wont) like crytek and say bull we have cry engine 3 running n Wii U here is the proof and its more CPU intensive than your frostbite engine so try again and stop the damn excuses Wii U owners and gamers deserve better. But talking positively about Wii U and its hardware for major developers seem to be against the law so I doubt we will see it happen.

 

Nah, the general public has no clue what the Frostbite engine even is.  I would say only about 10% of gamers do what we do here on forums, and that may be generous.  It could be far less.  Nintendo needs to showcase the hardware, and then fansboys on both sides can believe what they want. 

[MorbidGod]

I'll cave in. The Wii U is a technological achievement and is next generation. No sarcasm intended.

Do I agree with that? Not really. But people tend to dominate me into opinions in life so they might as well have their way here too.

Did you change your name?

[alan123]

so where are the WiiU Activision games then ?

[3Dude]

so where are the WiiU Activision games then ?

Theyve already made a statement saying theyve cancelled all original projects, and will only be focusing on releasing repeatedly the same handful of megahits that are currently popular, on platforms they are already established.

[GAMER1984]

Nah, the general public has no clue what the Frostbite engine even is.  I would say only about 10% of gamers do what we do here on forums, and that may be generous.  It could be far less.  Nintendo needs to showcase the hardware, and then fansboys on both sides can believe what they want.

Yes didn't mean the general public more the core gamers that visit websites and watch E3 stuff. I think they are a little more than10% but whatever.anyway the reality is many of those gamers talk big but don't have ANY developer experience. So when a developer comes out and say Wii U can't run their engine what else are they to believe. They don't have a devkit and engine to go and run it to see for themselves. Like I said it would be awesome for a 3rd party developer to come out and support the hardware capability of Wii U. No one seems to have the balls to do it. E3 is going to be interesting this Wii U is underpowered is going to become even worse or it will be irrelevant. Time will tell.

[Julio93]

Great, now they can run the MW1 engine without any technical hiccups from now on.

[routerbad]

I get what you are saying 3dude but it comes down to games. No matter what Nintendo shows at E3 the general public is going to believe Wii U isn't powerful enough to run frostbite 2/3. I think Nintendo or another developers(ubisoft, platinum, crytek, capcom, activision) has to show a modern engine pushing the damn system. People always expect a console maker to get the most out of their system. So Nintendo showing things wouldn't surprise people they made the damn console they should know how to squeeze things out of it. The word of mouth is killing Wii U right now. Talk is cheap at this point Nintendo has to show some fancy a$$ graphics at E3 from a 3rd party game. Someone has to call EA out (Nintendo wont) like crytek and say bull we have cry engine 3 running n Wii U here is the proof and its more CPU intensive than your frostbite engine so try again and stop the damn excuses Wii U owners and gamers deserve better. But talking positively about Wii U and its hardware for major developers seem to be against the law so I doubt we will see it happen.

You're kidding right? If Nintendo show an engine exclusive to Wii U that looks absolutely amazing, people will quickly forget about Frostbite

[DexterousGecko]

I've been saying this all the time but, "if, if, if"

 

I see lots of possibilities, maybes, and ifs.

 

The fact is, Nintendo needs to prove they are next gen before people will acknowledge them as such. Nintendo fans already believe it, that's not the problem. Until people see a Nintendo exclusive that looks better than the best games on the ps360, Nintendo won't really get any respect as a "next gen" console. (btw, i think this whole "next gen" business is ridiculous.)

[BlueBlur]

Judging from this, Nintendo isn't going to prove anything at E3.

[Zinix]

Judging from this, Nintendo isn't going to prove anything at E3.

What do you mean, not "prove" anything? E3 is Nintendo's last chance at redemption. Since E3 2012, people have been saying that the Wii U's architecture is similar to the 360/PS3, which isn't the case. If Nintendo doesn't showcase the true potential of what the Wii U is capable of, then even MORE developers will simply return their developers kits/stop whatever they're developing for the Wii U. 

 

Nintendo "has" to do something. They can't simply just sit back and just say "hey here's the next Mario or Mario Kart game! Go out and buy it thx!", I feel that Nintendo will shock the audience with a big title takes the Wii U to the limit, or at least farther than what we've seen now. That's just one man's opinion of course. 

[BlueBlur]

What do you mean, not "prove" anything? E3 is Nintendo's last chance at redemption. Since E3 2012, people have been saying that the Wii U's architecture is similar to the 360/PS3, which isn't the case. If Nintendo doesn't showcase the true potential of what the Wii U is capable of, then even MORE developers will simply return their developers kits/stop whatever they're developing for the Wii U. 

 

Nintendo "has" to do something. They can't simply just sit back and just say "hey here's the next Mario or Mario Kart game! Go out and buy it thx!", I feel that Nintendo will shock the audience with a big title takes the Wii U to the limit, or at least farther than what we've seen now. That's just one man's opinion of course. 

I'm just saying Iwata is expecting third-party devs to prove the Wii U isn't underpowered, it doesn't work that way in fact most devs aren't even giving the system a second glance because of the believe that it's only as powerful as the PS360, Iwata's remarks are a clear sigh that Nintendo is not planning to wow anyone with fancy graphic or exclusive engines, E3 is Nintendo final chance to prove what the Wii U is capable of and it seems that their going to blow it

Edited by Jade Sceptile, 12 May 2013 - 11:24 AM.

[3Dude]

I'm just saying Iwata is expecting third-party devs to prove the Wii U isn't underpowered, it doesn't work that way in fact most devs aren't even giving the system a second glance because of the believe that it's only as powerful as the PS360, Iwata's remarks are a clear sigh that Nintendo is not planning to wow anyone with fancy graphic or exclusive engines, E3 is Nintendo final chance to prove what the Wii U is capable of and it seems that their going to blow it

Your skills of critical thinking, comprehension, and perception have a lot of room for improvement

[DexterousGecko]

I'm just saying Iwata is expecting third-party devs to prove the Wii U isn't underpowered, it doesn't work that way in fact most devs aren't even giving the system a second glance because of the believe that it's only as powerful as the PS360, Iwata's remarks are a clear sigh that Nintendo is not planning to wow anyone with fancy graphic or exclusive engines, E3 is Nintendo final chance to prove what the Wii U is capable of and it seems that their going to blow it

Why is E3 the FINAL chance? what is going to happen after E3?

[GAMER1984]

You're kidding right? If Nintendo show an engine exclusive to Wii U that looks absolutely amazing, people will quickly forget about Frostbite

You are kidding right? The already 15 games that have been announced for the engine that won't be coming to Wii U if it can't run the engine. People care about GAMES! If the high profile games from 3rd parties dont come to the system no matter what nintendo shows or does the myth will continue. Like I said it will take a major 3rd party coming running a modern CPU taxing engine to say BS EA the system is capable.

Why is E3 the FINAL chance? what is going to happen after E3?

Is not but its the last big E3 before ps4 and 720 hit the market. It will be easier for people to forget about the Wii U all together when those systems launch and have better looking games than ps360 on the market that won't be debatable. Right now we are debating Wii U is more powerful than ps360 bwcause of what we SEE ps4 and 720 won't have that problem.