123 replies to this topic

[BrosBeforeGardenTools]

Experience doesn't improve ignorance.

Familiarity brings contempt.

[NintendoReport]

Familiarity brings contempt.

I'd have a battle of wits with you but I see your unarmed.

[BrosBeforeGardenTools]

I'd have a battle of wits with you but I see your unarmed.

Okay, you are right, you win. The Wii U is awesome powerful. Amazing crusher of PS4 and 720 at its finest, its cache memory alone can produce Crysis.

[routerbad]

Lol. Say what you want to but I have 13 years computer experience and 5 years computer hardware benchmarking experience. I don't need long arguments to prove myself.

Really? 13 years "computer" experience?  Listen son,  if you'd spent 13 years in the IT industry, you'd never have labeled your experience as "computer" experience. No self respecting IT professional would refer to themselves as "computer" guys.  I have been a Systems Engineer as well as a Network Engineer for the last 10 years.  I have worked in proving labs, I've made decisions that effect 100s of thousands of users, I've done dogfood testing for vendors, I've tested emergent technologies like mobile platforms (starting at the beginning of the smartphone revolution) to terradici cards for no loopback FMV and VOIP for zero clients.  Hell the NDA's for some of the things I've worked on don't have expiration dates.

 

It has been my job to know hardware and software, how it translates to business performance, and how to apply it smartly.  Its also my job to know when a vendor is feeding me a line of BS, how to smoke it out, and when to call them on it.  I don't need long arguments until I run into people who are so completely inept that I have to break it down Barney style to drive my point home.

[BrosBeforeGardenTools]

This is just one of those moments where we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm sure I know way more than you would dream I would, and about subjects you haven't even touched, but arguing over the internet is pointless.

[routerbad]

This is just one of those moments where we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm sure I know way more than you would dream I would, and about subjects you haven't even touched, but arguing over the internet is pointless.

I'm certain of it, one thing you learn in the IT industry is that no one person can possibly no everything about everything, it is an impossibility that is hard to get around, especially considering the ego's that IT creates.

 

However, given your remarks up to this point make me pretty confident in assuming that while you may know something about something, you either are unable to comprehend or unwilling to do the research to figure out what specs actually mean in a dedicated piece of hardware (for all intents and purposes, an appliance).  I will presume the latter, that you are just toeing a line based on your predetermined judgement of the hardware based on click bait press or other inaccurate sources of information.  Hence my assertion previously that you are trying to redefine the word "generation" to fit a particular agenda, and your personal confirmation bias.

[BrosBeforeGardenTools]

I'm certain of it, one thing you learn in the IT industry is that no one person can possibly no everything about everything, it is an impossibility that is hard to get around, especially considering the ego's that IT creates.
 
However, given your remarks up to this point make me pretty confident in assuming that while you may know something about something, you either are unable to comprehend or unwilling to do the research to figure out what specs actually mean in a dedicated piece of hardware (for all intents and purposes, an appliance).  I will presume the latter, that you are just toeing a line based on your predetermined judgement of the hardware based on click bait press or other inaccurate sources of information.  Hence my assertion previously that you are trying to redefine the word "generation" to fit a particular agenda, and your personal confirmation bias.

No, I'm just smart and since I can't get points acoss, I will now resort to sarcasm.

Yeah, sure don't know what a CPU/GPU/RAM does. What iz dat?

[MorbidGod]

You guys sure like to make mountains out of molehills don't you?

If you honestly think the Wii U will be on par with the 720 / PS4 offerings, you are one diluted bunch... seriously. The only reason anyone mention's the Wii U in the same sentence as the 720 / PS4 is because those systems haven't been released yet and the superiority of those consoles aren't that blatantly obvious... yet. When UE4 and Frostbite 3 are in full swing on the 720 / PS4 systems, no one with a IQ over 50 will be comparing the 3 consoles anymore.

Do yourselves a favor, and stop thinking the Wii U will offer the same quality of multi-platform titles as the 720 / PS4, because it won't.

The Wii U will offer awesome first party titles that will look great - for those titles, but that will be it. You can not honestly sit there and think that a console that can only allocate 1 GB of RAM for games will offer comparable games with a system that has 8GB of RAM.

But if some PR person from Activision mentioning the Wii U as a "next gen" console convinces you otherwise, then more power to you.

Wii U game play running CryEngine 3, multiplat game. Called Shadow of Eternals. http://www.ign.com/v...of-the-eternals

Look at the WII U GAMEPAD BUTTONS popping up for player to push. Not the PC version.

[routerbad]

No, I'm just smart and since I can't get points acoss, I will now resort to sarcasm.

Yeah, sure don't know what a CPU/GPU/RAM does. What iz dat?

You can't get points across because your points are invalid, it's hard to argue against 25 years of gaming history and Merriam-Webster.

[Lupaie]

I believe I heard the term 'cross gen" too but maybe we should call it "neither here neither there gen"

[routerbad]

Wii U game play running CryEngine 3, multiplat game. Called Shadow of Eternals. http://www.ign.com/v...of-the-eternals

Look at the WII U GAMEPAD BUTTONS popping up for player to push. Not the PC version.

What he failed to comprehend in the post you quoted is that PC's allocate 1GB or less of VRAM regularly and still outperform.  RAM was a significant issue in 2006 when Sony made the ridiculous decision to limit developers to 256MB when games were routinely using 512-1024 MB at the time on PC.  Wow, not much has changed in that amount of time with regards to RAM use, has it?  Maybe its because of all those post processing effects that actually reduce RAM storage requirements?

 

PC's are just now, just now, getting discreet cards with more than 1-2GB of VRAM, and it still isn't being used.  Not to mention, many assets can be streamed off disc, or off HDD.

 

So, my 6870, with 1GB of VRAM, will still outperform the PS4, silly isn't it?

Wii U game play running CryEngine 3, multiplat game. Called Shadow of Eternals. http://www.ign.com/v...of-the-eternals

Look at the WII U GAMEPAD BUTTONS popping up for player to push. Not the PC version.

What he failed to comprehend in the post you quoted is that PC's allocate 1GB or less of VRAM regularly and still outperform.  RAM was a significant issue in 2006 when Sony made the ridiculous decision to limit developers to 256MB when games were routinely using 512-1024 MB at the time on PC.  Wow, not much has changed in that amount of time with regards to RAM use, has it?  Maybe its because of all those post processing effects that actually reduce RAM storage requirements?

 

PC's are just now, just now, getting discreet cards with more than 1-2GB of VRAM, and it still isn't being used.  Not to mention, many assets can be streamed off disc, or off HDD.

 

So, my 6870, with 1GB of VRAM, will still outperform the PS4, silly isn't it?  What's more, my 6870, is two generations of AMD GPU's behind.

[BrosBeforeGardenTools]

What he failed to comprehend in the post you quoted is that PC's allocate 1GB or less of VRAM regularly and still outperform.  RAM was a significant issue in 2006 when Sony made the ridiculous decision to limit developers to 256MB when games were routinely using 512-1024 MB at the time on PC.  Wow, not much has changed in that amount of time with regards to RAM use, has it?  Maybe its because of all those post processing effects that actually reduce RAM storage requirements?
 
PC's are just now, just now, getting discreet cards with more than 1-2GB of VRAM, and it still isn't being used.  Not to mention, many assets can be streamed off disc, or off HDD.
 
So, my 6870, with 1GB of VRAM, will still outperform the PS4, silly isn't it?
What he failed to comprehend in the post you quoted is that PC's allocate 1GB or less of VRAM regularly and still outperform.  RAM was a significant issue in 2006 when Sony made the ridiculous decision to limit developers to 256MB when games were routinely using 512-1024 MB at the time on PC.  Wow, not much has changed in that amount of time with regards to RAM use, has it?  Maybe its because of all those post processing effects that actually reduce RAM storage requirements?
 
PC's are just now, just now, getting discreet cards with more than 1-2GB of VRAM, and it still isn't being used.  Not to mention, many assets can be streamed off disc, or off HDD.
 
So, my 6870, with 1GB of VRAM, will still outperform the PS4, silly isn't it?  What's more, my 6870, is two generations of AMD GPU's behind.

You need system RAM more than VRAM. System RAM has to store a copy of just about everything in VRAM and a lot more.

[3Dude]

You need system RAM more than VRAM. System RAM has to store a copy of just about everything in VRAM and a lot more.

 

Not sure what you are getting at. Not having any system ram at all would be devastating compared to not having dedicated vram. But thats pretty obvious to the point of why would you even mention it.

 

However, If you are keeping all assets/information you already sent to the vram a copy in system ram as well, you arent managing your memory very well.

[routerbad]

You need system RAM more than VRAM. System RAM has to store a copy of just about everything in VRAM and a lot more.

Only for certain functions, it holds a copy of whatever in VRAM needs to be accessed and worked on by the CPU.  So physics and AI are typically stored in both, but with a GPGPU, there is less need for this, as those engines can use the SIMD available on the GPU itself.

 

You definitely need more system RAM than VRAM when you plan on doing a whole lot of multitasking while game code is running.  This is where running applications for media encode and stream, crunching data from the PSEye cameras, network activities, etc (I've listed it all before, but some of it bears repeating) all take up big chunks of that RAM real estate.

 

Now add to that that the PS4 RAM is GDDR5, which for graphics functions is great, but when you start running general computing operations in the background it becomes not so great to deal with the latency and lost cycles.  

 

Now devs are saying that the PS4 is giving them 7GB of VRAM to work with (which I don't believe, but it is the current rumor, and supposedly stated by a dev) which I think would be the entirely wrong way to set up the system.  

 

If that does turn out to be the case, they've completely hamstrung themselves into a small portion of the memory and cannot expand the featureset beyond what they currently have unless they decide to shrink the amount of working memory available to developers.

[BrosBeforeGardenTools]

The 8GB RAM of the 720/PS4 isn't the only thing that makes it powerful, but we could run into some real issues. Games designed for the 720/PS4 but ported down to the Wii U may have cutbacks in them because of the lower amount of memory of the Wii U

[routerbad]

The 8GB RAM of the 720/PS4 isn't the only thing that makes it powerful, but we could run into some real issues. Games designed for the 720/PS4 but ported down to the Wii U may have cutbacks in them because of the lower amount of memory of the Wii U

Again you seem to fail to recognize how insignificant RAM becomes once you reach a certain level.  Wii U is not extremely limited compared to PC, which is where all of the "up-porting" would happen.  90% of PS4 exclusives won't use more than 2GB of VRAM, because it is prohibitively costly to create enough assets to really fill it up.  In games where it does fill up that pool, it will be due to poor memory optimization.

 

The PS4 is not going to be powerful enough to outrun the diminishing returns that have stagnated advances in PC game development.

Edited by routerbad, 07 May 2013 - 01:40 PM.

[MorbidGod]

The 8GB RAM of the 720/PS4 isn't the only thing that makes it powerful, but we could run into some real issues. Games designed for the 720/PS4 but ported down to the Wii U may have cutbacks in them because of the lower amount of memory of the Wii U

I really have a hard time with 8GB of RAM being used for graphics. Honestly, I have a hard time believing 5GB,of RAM will be used for graphics. Maybe 2 - 4 GB, with the higher end really pushing the envelope.

I'm going to either buy or get a demo of a modern PC game and see if I can see how much RAM it uses. Maybe I'm wrong.

However, THE WII U is out now and running MODERN game engines VERY WELL. Denis Dyack practically said Shadows of Eternals couldn't have been done on the Wii (exact quote is ED was limited by GCN, and now they aren't because of the advance hardware ... But the Wii USED GCN specs while WII U doesn't). And, I am sorry, you guys are crazy thinking they are going to PORT MULTIPLATS down. They now make game for 360, then port to PS3 then to PC. It's easier and less expensive because it requires less work. Don't tell me publishers like to waste money.

So multiplats, assuming said multiplat will be on Wii U, will be made for the weakest console, then ported to the more powerful PS4/720 and PC. Currently, being ported from 360/PS3, to Wii U. Which is where the problem comes into play, because developers... To make it easier .. Have been using one powerful core for the game, not using the other cores. Where now they have to retool it to work with how the Wii U is designed. This will be easier with the new generation, because all info points to more cores but less speed (GHZ) like the Wii U.

[routerbad]

I really have a hard time with 8GB of RAM being used for graphics. Honestly, I have a hard time believing 5GB,of RAM will be used for graphics. Maybe 2 - 4 GB, with the higher end really pushing the envelope.

I'm going to either buy or get a demo of a modern PC game and see if I can see how much RAM it uses. Maybe I'm wrong.

However, THE WII U is out now and running MODERN game engines VERY WELL. Denis Dyack practically said Shadows of Eternals couldn't have been done on the Wii (exact quote is ED was limited by GCN, and now they aren't because of the advance hardware ... But the Wii USED GCN specs while WII U doesn't). And, I am sorry, you guys are crazy thinking they are going to PORT MULTIPLATS down. They now make game for 360, then port to PS3 then to PC. It's easier and less expensive because it requires less work. Don't tell me publishers like to waste money.

So multiplats, assuming said multiplat will be on Wii U, will be made for the weakest console, then ported to the more powerful PS4/720 and PC. Currently, being ported from 360/PS3, to Wii U. Which is where the problem comes into play, because developers... To make it easier .. Have been using one powerful core for the game, not using the other cores. Where now they have to retool it to work with how the Wii U is designed. This will be easier with the new generation, because all info points to more cores but less speed (GHZ) like the Wii U.

True, in fact games that are developed with 8th gen in mind will look better on Wii U, because the architecture is radically divergent from what everyone is accustomed to.

[3Dude]

MorbidGod, on 07 May 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:I really have a hard time with 8GB of RAM being used for graphics. Honestly, I have a hard time believing 5GB,of RAM will be used for graphics. Maybe 2 - 4 GB, with the higher end really pushing the envelope.

I'm going to either buy or get a demo of a modern PC game and see if I can see how much RAM it uses. Maybe I'm wrong.

However, THE WII U is out now and running MODERN game engines VERY WELL. Denis Dyack practically said Shadows of Eternals couldn't have been done on the Wii (exact quote is ED was limited by GCN, and now they aren't because of the advance hardware ... But the Wii USED GCN specs while WII U doesn't). And, I am sorry, you guys are crazy thinking they are going to PORT MULTIPLATS down. They now make game for 360, then port to PS3 then to PC. It's easier and less expensive because it requires less work. Don't tell me publishers like to waste money.

So multiplats, assuming said multiplat will be on Wii U, will be made for the weakest console, then ported to the more powerful PS4/720 and PC. Currently, being ported from 360/PS3, to Wii U. Which is where the problem comes into play, because developers... To make it easier .. Have been using one powerful core for the game, not using the other cores. Where now they have to retool it to work with how the Wii U is designed. This will be easier with the new generation, because all info points to more cores but less speed (GHZ) like the Wii U.




Its more than just slower clock speeds.

Both ps4 and durango have been reported to have weaker cpu flop performance than cell.

And looking at what they are based on, 8 core jaguars, that conclusion is a no brainer.
 

Edited by 3Dude, 07 May 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[MorbidGod]

MorbidGod, on 07 May 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:I really have a hard time with 8GB of RAM being used for graphics. Honestly, I have a hard time believing 5GB,of RAM will be used for graphics. Maybe 2 - 4 GB, with the higher end really pushing the envelope.

I'm going to either buy or get a demo of a modern PC game and see if I can see how much RAM it uses. Maybe I'm wrong.

However, THE WII U is out now and running MODERN game engines VERY WELL. Denis Dyack practically said Shadows of Eternals couldn't have been done on the Wii (exact quote is ED was limited by GCN, and now they aren't because of the advance hardware ... But the Wii USED GCN specs while WII U doesn't). And, I am sorry, you guys are crazy thinking they are going to PORT MULTIPLATS down. They now make game for 360, then port to PS3 then to PC. It's easier and less expensive because it requires less work. Don't tell me publishers like to waste money.

So multiplats, assuming said multiplat will be on Wii U, will be made for the weakest console, then ported to the more powerful PS4/720 and PC. Currently, being ported from 360/PS3, to Wii U. Which is where the problem comes into play, because developers... To make it easier .. Have been using one powerful core for the game, not using the other cores. Where now they have to retool it to work with how the Wii U is designed. This will be easier with the new generation, because all info points to more cores but less speed (GHZ) like the Wii U.




Its more than just slower clock speeds.

Both ps4 and durango have been reported to have weaker cpu flop performance than cell.

And looking at what they are based on, 8 core jaguars, that conclusion is a no brainer.

Very true. It's never as simple as GHz anymore.