123 replies to this topic

[Gaymer]

So when the PS4 and Next box come out, that means Wii U will be one generation behind, right? But the Wii was Nintendo's last generation's console, so where does that leave the Wii U? Floating in between? Or are the Wii, PS3, 360, and Wii U in one generation? Makes no sense to me. No one ever argued that the underpowered Wii was Nintendo's next gen console at the time. Why start now?

Edited by Gaymer, 07 May 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[Cyanotic]

So when the PS4 and Next box come out, that means Wii U will be one generation behind, right? But the Wii was Nintendo's last generation's console, so where does that leave the Wii U? Floating in between? Or are the Wii, PS3, 360, and Wii U in one generation? Makes no sense to me. No one ever argued that the underpowered Wii was Nintendo's next gen console at the time. Why start now?

 

No, that's the whole point. The Wii U is considered next gen and will be lumped with the 720 / PS4. Does it make sense... no.

[NintendoReport]

No, that's the whole point. The Wii U is considered next gen and will be lumped with the 720 / PS4. Does it make sense... no.

 

This just in, Cyanotic also believes in psychics, unicorns, and that the world is flat.

 

If you are going to keep pressing that power makes up the definition of next gen, you should also consider efficiency. Since the Wii U is more efficient then it's predecessor's and yet is more powerful then ps360, it's next gen. You should win your own argument. 

Edited by Sorceror12, 07 May 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[3Dude]

Main Entry: next-generation
Part of Speech: adj
Definition: pertaining to the next generation in a family; also, pertaining to the next stage of development or version of a product, service, or technology
Example: Programmers are now developing next-generation software

There you go, jackass.

Doesnt say power anywhere on there guy, that is also a definition dealing with the subject of temporality.

And as if your crippled argument didnt have enough nails in its coffin...

The first generation of the latest intel core processors, the icores, was the i7.

The less powerful i5 and i3 were later generation releases.

To top it off, next gen after nehalem, sandy bridge, has i3's and i5's that are less powerful than a nehalem i7.

Better luck next time kid.

[3Dude]

Main Entry: next-generation
Part of Speech: adj
Definition: pertaining to the next generation in a family; also, pertaining to the next stage of development or version of a product, service, or technology
Example: Programmers are now developing next-generation software

There you go, jackass.

Doesnt say power anywhere on there guy, that is also a definition dealing with the subject of temporality.

And as if your crippled argument didnt have enough nails in its coffin...

The first generation of the latest intel core processors, the icores, was the i7.

The less powerful i5 and i3 were later generation releases.

To top it off, next gen after nehalem, sandy bridge, has i3's and i5's that are less powerful than a nehalem i7.

Better luck next time kid.

[Bunkei]

You guys sure like to make mountains out of molehills don't you?

 

If you honestly think the Wii U will be on par with the 720 / PS4 offerings, you are one diluted bunch... seriously.  The only reason anyone mention's the Wii U in the same sentence as the 720 / PS4 is because those systems haven't been released yet and the superiority of those consoles aren't that blatantly obvious... yet. When UE4 and Frostbite 3 are in full swing on the 720 / PS4 systems, no one with a IQ over 50 will be comparing the 3 consoles anymore.

 

Do yourselves a favor, and stop thinking the Wii U will offer the same quality of multi-platform titles as the 720 / PS4, because it won't.

 

The Wii U will offer awesome first party titles that will look great - for those titles, but that will be it. You can not honestly sit there and think that a console that can only allocate 1 GB of RAM for games will offer comparable games with a system that has 8GB of RAM.

 

But if some PR person from Activision mentioning the Wii U as a "next gen" console convinces you otherwise, then more power to you.

 

You are accusing us of drinking Wii U kool aid, but then say that the PS4 will be superior because it has 8 GB of RAM?  Then you say that the first party games will look great, as if the memory limitation you mentioned earlier does not apply here?  Riight.  If you were truly being objective, you'd at least wait until the other consoles are on the market (or at least close to launch) before you start to draw conclusions.

 

I think the next-gen multi platform titles will look fine on the Wii U and will give up little to the other consoles, and I am prepared to revisit this topic once those titles are released.

[Cyanotic]

Doesnt say power anywhere on there guy, that is also a definition dealing with the subject of temporality.

And as if your crippled argument didnt have enough nails in its coffin...

The first generation of the latest intel core processors, the icores, was the i7.

The less powerful i5 and i3 were later generation releases.

To top it off, next gen after nehalem, sandy bridge, has i3's and i5's that are less powerful than a nehalem i7.

Better luck next time kid.

 

My crippled argument? Dude, honestly, you have the worst arguments and examples I have ever seen.

 

Yes, the i5 and i3 were released after the i7 but it wasn't the next generation of the i7. You have some serious problems if you think thats a valid argument LOL. They are completely different products with entirely a entirely different consumer base. If Intel came out and said the next generation processor of the i7 is the i3, then you'd have a point.

 

Let me help you... it's like saying the next generation of the ford mustang is the ford focus because the focus was the next generation of cars Ford made. Dummy.

[MatrixChicken]

So... You're saying that, even though you don't know how powerful the PS4/720 will be or how good their games will look, they will be way better than the Wii U graphically. Does that make sense? ...No.

 

The Wii U is the next stage of development/version of Nintendo's console, so technically, it is a next-gen console.

 

And for some reason, nobody understands what I'm really saying. Even if the definition of next-generation pertains to power, I THINK THE WII U IS NEXT-GEN.

[routerbad]

My crippled argument? Dude, honestly, you have the worst arguments and examples I have ever seen.

 

Yes, the i5 and i3 were released after the i7 but it wasn't the next generation of the i7. You have some serious problems if you think thats a valid argument LOL. They are completely different products with entirely a entirely different consumer base. If Intel came out and said the next generation processor of the i7 is the i3, then you'd have a point.

 

Let me help you... it's like saying the next generation of the ford mustang is the ford focus because the focus was the next generation of cars Ford made. Dummy.

Fool,  this is a particularly weak strawman argument you've attempted to build here.

 

The i5 and i3 were based on the next generation of the iCore, which was also the basis for the i7.  They are products in the same family and are not targeted to different consumer bases, they are targeted toward OEM's and people who need processors.

 

The 2013 Ford focus is in the next generation family of Ford vehicles, using their next generation of engine technologies.  They aren't completely different products, engine R&D affects the entire lineup, not just one vehicle.  It is completely accurate to argue that the 2013 Focus is a newer Ford vehicle than the 2010 Mustang.  

 

Your arguments are the weakest I've ever seen from anyone, ever.  I have seen 5 year olds with more logical and thought out arguments as to why they should be allowed to eat more skittles than any of the arguments you have presented on this site.

 

Now back to gaming hardware, where the definition of generation still applies as it does elsewhere, regardless of your attempts to change the definition to fit your confirmation bias.

Edited by routerbad, 07 May 2013 - 10:06 AM.

[BrosBeforeGardenTools]

Cyanotic has presented some good arguments to us, and you choose to tear him apart people? Just because not everything he says was very technical doesn't mean he's not right. The Wii is current gen with last gen hardware. The Wii U is pretty much next gen with current gen hardware.

So... You're saying that, even though you don't know how powerful the PS4/720 will be or how good their games will look, they will be way better than the Wii U graphically. Does that make sense? ...No.
 
The Wii U is the next stage of development/version of Nintendo's console, so technically, it is a next-gen console.
 
And for some reason, nobody understands what I'm really saying. Even if the definition of next-generation pertains to power, I THINK THE WII U IS NEXT-GEN.

We already have an idea that the PS4/720 will be more powerful, which means that If a game is on all three consoles, the Wii U will look the worst. It will tend to have the lowest resolution, least AA, and may even suffer cutdowns.

[3Dude]

My crippled argument? Dude, honestly, you have the worst arguments and examples I have ever seen.

Yes, the i5 and i3 were released after the i7 but it wasn't the next generation of the i7. You have some serious problems if you think thats a valid argument LOL. They are completely different products with entirely a entirely different consumer base. If Intel came out and said the next generation processor of the i7 is the i3, then you'd have a point.

Let me help you... it's like saying the next generation of the ford mustang is the ford focus because the focus was the next generation of cars Ford made. Dummy.

Ha, sorry kid, you ran for the obvious juke and failed the actual point. It was nahelem vs. ivy bridge btw.

And got called out on it And not even by me.

Oh, and cars have been getting much weaker in power in favor of fuel economy... You are just failing all over the place.

Just give up your lost cause and stop incorrectly using the term.

Make your own original term and orginizational system involving respective power levels.

Stop trying to change one thats been set in stone since before you were born.

Edited by 3Dude, 07 May 2013 - 10:20 AM.

[routerbad]

Cyanotic has presented some good arguments to us, and you choose to tear him apart people? Just because not everything he says was very technical doesn't mean he's not right. The Wii is current gen with last gen hardware. The Wii U is pretty much next gen with current gen hardware.


We already have an idea that the PS4/720 will be more powerful, which means that If a game is on all three consoles, the Wii U will look the worst. It will tend to have the lowest resolution, least AA, and may even suffer cutdowns.

If you want to use that argument, current gen hardware, here you go, as I have repeated countless times before, probably in this very thread.

 

Power7 is the next generation Power Series Core from IBM, developed in 2009, made available in 2010.  It is the basis from which the Watson supercomputer was created.

 

The shaders in the Wii U GPU are based on the HD6XXX series of GPU's, which were made available in 2010.

 

The DDR3 RAM in use in the Wii U has been in use since 2007.

 

The current generation started in 2005 and 2006, before any of these technologies were industrially available.

 

That is just based on your strawman, WiiU is nextgen strictly based on the fact that is a Nintendo console in the 8th generation of gaming.

 

 

Additionally, your assertion that the Wii U version of any multi platform game would look worse has no basis in fact.  It is pure speculation.  What the games look like depend on a number of factors not related to the capability of the hardware, including art direction, financial resources, developer talent, etc.

 

When all is said and done, multiplatform games will look by and large exactly the same on all three consoles, because they all have the same capability.  PS4's additional resources will go to waste in all but the rarest of occasions, and even then it will amount to a higher resolution or a slightly better framerate.  We've already established, also countless times, that not even the great and powerful Sony can overcome diminishing returns.

 

I can run all of the same games with the same level of fidelity on the TITAN, the HD6870, and the HD7770.  Three different cards with completely different power profiles, but any game will look the same regardless.  One may have higher framerates, for all that's worth (not a lot) and I might be able to have higher resolutions, but at the end of the day, they are all rendering the same effects, the same textures, the same assets.  Lock them all to 720p or 1080p and there will be zero difference.

Edited by routerbad, 07 May 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[BrosBeforeGardenTools]

If you want to use that argument, current gen hardware, here you go, as I have repeated countless times before, probably in this very thread.
 
Power7 is the next generation Power Series Core from IBM, developed in 2009, made available in 2010.  It is the basis from which the Watson supercomputer was created.
 
The shaders in the Wii U GPU are based on the HD6XXX series of GPU's, which were made available in 2010.
 
The DDR3 RAM in use in the Wii U has been in use since 2007.
 
The current generation started in 2005 and 2006, before any of these technologies were industrially available.

All that means little though. The Wii U seems to be using cutdown new technology. The CPU is powerful through architecture but because it is weak through clock speed, nothing can push that architecture, so the performance isn't revolutionary. Similar cutbacks are probably on the GPU and RAM.

[routerbad]

All that means little though. The Wii U seems to be using cutdown new technology. The CPU is powerful through architecture but because it is weak through clock speed, nothing can push that architecture, so the performance isn't revolutionary. Similar cutbacks are probably on the GPU and RAM.

I'm sorry, you've got that backward, clock speed means very little in the grand sceme of things.  Clock speed is used to overcome lack of IPC performance, not the other way around.

 

There is no benefit in creating a custom GPU if you are going to "cut down" what it's capable of, and suggesting it just makes you sound naive.  Custom chips are expensive, and the GPU in the WiiU accounts for about a third of the price of the console.

 

Another strawman down.

 

Also, "performance isn't revolutionary" I'm assuming this is the only thing actually tying your strawman back into the main point, whether WiiU is next gen, and there is no requirement that technology be "revolutionary" to consider it as such.  In fact, the PS4 and nextbox will not be using "revolutionary" hardware in any way, shape or form.  Everything about them is, well, ordinary.

 

The WiiU hardware could be considered more revolutionary than the other two simply based on the fact that all of the hardware is completely custom, and is based on the best ideas from previous hardware designs, and the capability of new hardware designs.

 

Add to that the controller, which in and of itself is rather ordinary, but when put to use on a dedicated gaming system, using a wireless video protocol that can be considered revolutionary (it's actually never been done this way before) incorporating new communication methods like NFC, FFC, 9 axis motion sensing, including a self correcting geomagnetic sensor, as well as all of the best ideas from previous control methods.

 

Are starting to get the picture here?  Not only is WiiU more "revolutionary" than it's generational counterparts will be, it seems Nintendo's mantra during the design phase was "Best of the old and in with the new".

[BrosBeforeGardenTools]

I'm sorry, you've got that backward, clock speed means very little in the grand sceme of things.  Clock speed is used to overcome lack of IPC performance, not the other way around.
 
There is no benefit in creating a custom GPU if you are going to "cut down" what it's capable of, and suggesting it just makes you sound naive.  Custom chips are expensive, and the GPU in the WiiU accounts for about a third of the price of the console.
 
Another strawman down.
 
Also, "performance isn't revolutionary" I'm assuming this is the only thing actually tying your strawman back into the main point, whether WiiU is next gen, and there is no requirement that technology be "revolutionary" to consider it as such.  In fact, the PS4 and nextbox will not be using "revolutionary" hardware in any way, shape or form.  Everything about them is, well, ordinary.
 
The WiiU hardware could be considered more revolutionary than the other two simply based on the fact that all of the hardware is completely custom, and is based on the best ideas from previous hardware designs, and the capability of new hardware designs.
 
Add to that the controller, which in and of itself is rather ordinary, but when put to use on a dedicated gaming system, using a wireless video protocol that can be considered revolutionary (it's actually never been done this way before) incorporating new communication methods like NFC, FFC, 9 axis motion sensing, including a self correcting geomagnetic sensor, as well as all of the best ideas from previous control methods.
 
Are starting to get the picture here?  Not only is WiiU more "revolutionary" than it's generational counterparts will be, it seems Nintendo's mantra during the design phase was "Best of the old and in with the new".

My iPad 4 is likely more revolutionary in technology than my gaming PC, it it portable with a quad core GPU. However I can play the exact same video game on both, because I'm a game developer, and the iPad 4 struggles to keep 60FPS while my PC doesn't.

The 720, PS4 and Wii U will all likely have revolutionary hardware. However, the actual performance of the 720 and PS4 will likely be much better. Performance and revolutionary hardware are both needed to create the next gen.

[3Dude]

My iPad 4 is likely more revolutionary in technology than my gaming PC, it it portable with a quad core GPU. However I can play the exact same video game on both, because I'm a game developer, and the iPad 4 struggles to keep 60FPS while my PC doesn't.
The 720, PS4 and Wii U will all likely have revolutionary hardware. However, the actual performance of the 720 and PS4 will likely be much better. Performance and revolutionary hardware are both needed to create the next gen.

Yet another person who doesnt know the definition of the word generation.

[BrosBeforeGardenTools]

Yet another person who doesnt know the definition of the word generation.

Or to put it another way, you and routerbad both herald how revolutionary the Wii U hardware is, without telling people that the performance won't be the best. Way too much focus on the internals. Me and the other guy are focusing on the performance and what is actually next generation. And that's all I'm doing. I could care less what is "generation".

[routerbad]

Or to put it another way, you and routerbad both herald how revolutionary the Wii U hardware is, without telling people that the performance won't be the best. Way too much focus on the internals. Me and the other guy are focusing on the performance and what is actually next generation. And that's all I'm doing. I could care less what is "generation".

Because the performance will be largely the same as both of the other platforms.  Both of the other platforms are using OTS mobile GPU's.  Your inability to understand what specs actually mean in the long run speak to your ability as a "game developer".  They will run the same games, with the same framerates, with the same resolutions.  They will all use the same models, textures, lighting, and post processing effects.  FLOPS don't mean everything in game development, it only tells part of the story, Nintendo and others have already shown (both through pre-alpha development videos and tech demos) what the Wii U is capable of early on in the dev cycle before final hardware is available, and before an optimized engine is available.  The PS4 will be capable of all of the same things.  There is no secret sauce at Sony headquaters  (oh, I forgot, they sold most of them) that will make polygons on Sony's machine look radically different than polygons on Nintendo's.  

 

Here's the deal, Wii was extremely underpowered, right?  It was literally using the exact same hardware from a previous generation (one in which there was an enormous bump in technology to boot) while the other two OEMs used more modern hardware.  This time, the Wii U is using more modern hardware, that is capable of all of the same things as the other OEMs new systems, in a generational leap that is not going to be as impressive as the last one.

 

Yet you and others still want to redefine the word "generation" and everytime you are called out on it, you start building an army of strawmen to use as ammunition in your argument against nothing.

 

So, what we keep saying is that the PS4 is indeed more powerful than the WiiU, but that it won't amount to much if anything visually.  You and Cyanotic are using the word generation as an exclusive title based on performance, which is incorrect use of the word, that is the only argument here, and talking about performance in any case does not change the fact that Wii U is part of the 8th generation of gaming.

 

Creating a strawman would actually be a decent tactic on your part (since your original argument has nothing to stand on) if your strawmen weren't all so obviously weak and porous.  Speaking about specs and performance when you make it so obvious you know nothing about what it all means is not the direction you should have taken.

[BrosBeforeGardenTools]

Lol. Say what you want to but I have 13 years computer experience and 5 years computer hardware benchmarking experience. I don't need long arguments to prove myself.

[NintendoReport]

Lol. Say what you want to but I have 13 years computer experience and 5 years computer hardware benchmarking experience. I don't need long arguments to prove myself.

 

Experience doesn't improve ignorance.