66 replies to this topic

[uh20]

yea
theres actually is a little enviromental difference though, and that is that the consoles are getting so powerful, it will be hard to budget a game up to its performance
the next generation may rely on power a little less than this one, but the ones afterword....
i am requiring the wiiu myself to be in the ballpark (%70) of the other consoles

problem is people are still savvy about what is more powerful like what you said, microsoft could easily say they have a quad-core cumbustable cpu like they had last generation, and the minor amount of actual power gained in the system will draw crowds
another (and perhaps more devious) trick up the other 2 companies (but mainly microsoft's) sleeves would be to make development of both systems very different, it already kind of is with directx, so thats a problem to probably see too

cross fingers
twist toungue
blauaaluaaa

[Hinkik]

i actually say the exact opposite. Nintendo has put itself in VERY good situation. here are my points as to why

1. the GPU having modern architecture. this alone was the reason the Wii wasnt able to get the ports of this gen. the cpu wasnt the problem. nintendo giving the Wii U a modern GPU with 2010 or better architecture will be on par with the GPU inside the ps4 and nextbox.

2. the Wii U pro controller. the alternative to the wii u gamepad. now(we have all heard and seen it similarities to the xbox360 controller) developers have a controller they can use(if they choose if they are not lazy) to use primarily for shooters and other games. we know the xbox 360 controller is the primary reason its the chosen console for shooters.

3. Miiverse. facebook is still the most popular thing in the world right now. at first i didnt get miiverse but now i do. "IF" nintendo is able to make miiverse the facebook of gaming i can see this console selling 100 million units. to have gamers interact in an everyday fashion with other gamers about what they are playing can take over the world just like the Wii did(maybe even more).

4. last but not least the Wii u gamepad. obviously this is the selling point of the console. "IF" nintendo gets it right with this controller it can literally change the electronic world as we know it. so there have been rumors of nintendo OS for Wii U being android influenced or actually running on android. but imagine what this device can do...video chat, internet, downloading your favorite apps, and controlling your tv(you can literally play your favorite game and watch tv at the same time). i believe nintendo will get some exclusives next gen because of the gamepad. i like(for a luanch period game) what ubisoft is doing with Zombi U. it just cant be done on xbox and playstation current consoles(we will have to wait and see if one of them decide to copy nintendo with their next gaming console controller). this controller can literally replace or prevent you from having to buy a tablet plus it plays your favorite nintendo franchises on it without lag.

all in all if 3rd patries dont bring their franchises to nintendo upcoming console it wont be nintendos fault. they have put a pretty good platform together for developers to be able to bring their games over successfully. we will just have to wait and see if and or what excuses they would use to deny us their franchises on nintendos upcoming home console.

So you're telling me that the wii u's gpu is going to be on par with PS4 and Xbox 720?

[Hinkik]

Look at what I said. Its all about the Architecture. So it might now run at the same many flops but having the same shading., effect techniques as those gpu's it will have. Look at the 3ds... It has right now very similar architecture as ps360 gpu's that's why a game like resident evil revelations was possible on it. It simple actually nintendo is smart and has the ability(as many are too young to remember has done in the past) to make powerful hardware that can keep up. There were games on gamecube that developers stated couldn't be made on the xbox although xbox "RAW" power was 3 times that of gamecube.

First off, the 3DS renders no near far how many pixels what the ps360 does (1080p) also you have to understand that power isn't just one thing. Of course there is games that couldn't be done on the gamecube but could on the xbox and vice versa. RAM (assuming you made a typo) is just one factor of what something can run.

Also Revelations is just a work of geniuses.

1. The game doesn't have a big render distance since it's indoors.
2. Since the game is indoors baked textures looks really good.
3. Good optimization

If you think that the 3DS is on par with PS360 then... um just no.

[jalio_the_brave]

First off, the 3DS renders no near far how many pixels what the ps360 does (1080p) also you have to understand that power isn't just one thing. Of course there is games that couldn't be done on the gamecube but could on the xbox and vice versa. RAM (assuming you made a typo) is just one factor of what something can run.

Also Revelations is just a work of geniuses.

1. The game doesn't have a big render distance since it's indoors.
2. Since the game is indoors baked textures looks really good.
3. Good optimization

If you think that the 3DS is on par with PS360 then... um just no.

He said similar architecture. And looking at Revelations, I think that is rightly said. If the 3ds can run a game like revelations, which looks absolutely gorgeous, than just imagine what the wii u can do. Considering the fact that if Ninty's hardware design is smartly made enough to the point that Revelations can run on that small little thing, than wii u will be able to do wonders. They're making a console with smart architecture that should be able to hold its own against nextbox/ps4

Edited by jalio_the_brave, 22 July 2012 - 03:46 PM.

[AwesomeAustin]

The revolutionizing impact on the gaming industry is important. Nintendo goes by the slogan"creating something unique" and if anyone could make something out of this world Nintendo can. Developers are going to have to learn and see things in Nintendo's eyes. Sure the SmartGlass is a good idea, but how it affects the gamer, and gaming experience makes a HUGE difference. Nintendo looks like they have a better understanding of that with their gamepad, whereas Microsoft pushes graphics and other media.

[Lain]

I think this is worth reading.

IMO Nintendo has officially gotten themselves screwed in terms of the Wii U. With Microsoft's SmartGlass and Sony's Vita/PS3 CrossPlay, and both being optional accessory's instead of almost necessary Wii U Gamepad, Microsoft and Sony can stick with traditional controls and make their consoles even MORE powerful than what we are all expecting. Now I hate how people think that Gaming is all about graphics but in reality, it's about the Gameplay experience in which the Wii U delivers this aspect in the best. HOWEVER, with Hardware costs having to be kept down to include the Gamepad, the graphics won't be as good as PS4 and XBOX Next, so trolls will have another reason to hate on the Wii U and third-parties will see this and once again pledge their games on Sony and Microsoft, leaving Nintendo in the dust...again, like they were with the Wii. Undoubtfully though Wii U WILL succeed because of the Loyal Nintendo fans, though we will see a repeat of the current generation.

There's quite a lot wrong with your post, but I'll comment on the bigger problem - That being you believe the Wii U is a potential repeat Wii scenario.

It's not.

Do please elaborate for me as to why later third party titles never made it onto Wii in the first place? Graphics? No. Power? Probably not. Motion controls? "Maybe" at best. The Wii was essentially old hardware. The Wii U is not old* hardware (* in the sense that we aren't taking a Gamecube and painting a new color). This decision creates difficulties for getting games onto the console, and is probably the main one out of a couple for keeping a bunch of games out.

Now let's move onto your first claim that Microsoft's Smart Glass and Sony's Cross Play actually hurt the Wii U. First of all, virtually no one cares for the Vita/PS3 crossplay functionality. Why? Well for starters, it costs over $300 just to use it since you need both a PS3 and a Vita to get it working. The Wii U has it's thing ready out of the box for probably less than a PS3 and Vita. The same applies to Smart Glass, though to a much lesser extent. I don't believe people are going to disregard the Wii U because you can do similar things on another system provided you buy the necessary hardware.

Then you go on to claim that Sony and Microsoft have got the advantage because they'll have traditional controls on their future consoles, as if the Wii U doesn't. The whole power argument doesn't really even work because you it assumes that the future consoles are power levels magnitudes away from the Wii U. It also assumes that this extra amount of power will make a meaningful difference to consumers - We don't know that.

Edited by Lain, 23 July 2012 - 12:47 AM.

[Guy Fieri]

I disagree, Smartglass is not exactly like the Wii U gamepad and Vita/PS3 crossplay will mostly be used for buying a game on the PS3 and getting it for free on Vita ( mostly, some exceptions).

[Hinkik]

like the poster below you already stated i said similar not on par or more powerful. im not one to try and make someone feel bad but you dont seem to know much about tech in your comment. even with the limitation of the game you pointed out it stil couldnt have been made on the wii to look that good. the wii just didnt have the shader technique to pull off such a game. so calm down a little you seem really defensive for no reason.

Sorry but you're the one who doesn't understand game engines and real time 3D rendering.

Rendering a game like revelations is easy. Really easy. Trust me I've already said why. Baked textures does A LOT and it can almost only be done on indoor scenes. What is the render distance in that game? Maybe 5-10 meters max?
Doesn't it make sense since almost all games on the market on the 3DS looks ugly (Technically ugly like bad AA for example) If the 3DS is so strong that it's smiliar to the ps360 then why does the Nintendo games have no AA and look sometimes quite bad? It's nintendo themselves, shouldn't they know how to use the hardware better than Capcom?
Also look at metal gear solid, looks terrible (again technically) low res textures bad AA, almost no use of shaders? If the 3DS is so capable, why does it look like it? Well first off, the render distance, second it's outdoor (nuff said it's outdoor okay? )

So what I'm saying is that Revelations use different cheating techniques to get that look. They can do that because it's a horror game where it's indoor and you shouldn't be able to see so far.
Search up baked textures and you will see, with it you don't have to simulate lights.

Also yeah they use shaders, but that's a feature not power. Well, shaders are really good since we still can't raytrace in realtime renderings with the weak hardware we have now. (Actually the GTX 680 can raytrace). Kudos to 3DS for using it.

You are right that the architecture is a very very critical part of the GPU but a good architecture needs a good clockspeed, nice ram, blahblahblah to work well. But there is a reason as I said why the only game you can come up with is Revelations.

He said similar architecture. And looking at Revelations, I think that is rightly said. If the 3ds can run a game like revelations, which looks absolutely gorgeous, than just imagine what the wii u can do. Considering the fact that if Ninty's hardware design is smartly made enough to the point that Revelations can run on that small little thing, than wii u will be able to do wonders. They're making a console with smart architecture that should be able to hold its own against nextbox/ps4

Read ^^

Edited by Hinkik, 23 July 2012 - 01:59 AM.

[Foot]

There's quite a lot wrong with your post, but I'll comment on the bigger problem - That being you believe the Wii U is a potential repeat Wii scenario.

It's not.

Do please elaborate for me as to why later third party titles never made it onto Wii in the first place? Graphics? No. Power? Probably not. Motion controls? "Maybe" at best. The Wii was essentially old hardware. The Wii U is not old* hardware (* in the sense that we aren't taking a Gamecube and painting a new color). This decision creates difficulties for getting games onto the console, and is probably the main one out of a couple for keeping a bunch of games out.

Now let's move onto your first claim that Microsoft's Smart Glass and Sony's Cross Play actually hurt the Wii U. First of all, virtually no one cares for the Vita/PS3 crossplay functionality. Why? Well for starters, it costs over $300 just to use it since you need both a PS3 and a Vita to get it working. The Wii U has it's thing ready out of the box for probably less than a PS3 and Vita. The same applies to Smart Glass, though to a much lesser extent. I don't believe people are going to disregard the Wii U because you can do similar things on another system provided you buy the necessary hardware.

Then you go on to claim that Sony and Microsoft have got the advantage because they'll have traditional controls on their future consoles, as if the Wii U doesn't. The whole power argument doesn't really even work because you it assumes that the future consoles are power levels magnitudes away from the Wii U. It also assumes that this extra amount of power will make a meaningful difference to consumers - We don't know that.

No,
With the SmartGlass / CrossPlay thing, Microsoft and Sony made a cheap move by detailing it as optional. This easily countered wii u while allowing the other two companies to once again show off greater power and once again and have their SmartGlass / CrossPlay and fail at trying to prove that they are better, and allow idiot trolls to hate on Wii U and stereotype it once again

Oh, and traditional controls don't matter. What everyone has become obsessed with having, is graphics, even the developers want next gen to be powerful, duh

[Hamez]

HOWEVER, with Hardware costs having to be kept down to include the Gamepad, the graphics won't be as good as PS4 and XBOX Next.

That time is still far away. Since neither PS4 nor the nextbox have been even announced yet, it is still a good 2 years away at least. This will give Wii U plenty of time to sell a bunch before PS4 or Nextbox have the chance to even sell one unit.

...so trolls will have another reason to hate on the Wii U and third-parties will see this and once again pledge their games on Sony and Microsoft, leaving Nintendo in the dust...again, like they were with the Wii.

Wii completely blew both PS3 and 360 out of the water, as far as sales go. If this will truly be a "repeat of the current generation," then that is very good news for Nintendo, because that's a ton of sales in their pockets.
But keep in mind that there is more 3rd party support, and like I said above, a lot of time before we see a glimpse of any new competitors' consoles.

[Tre]

I have never understood why people care what other people say about the system that they bought for themselves. When you buy what you like, it doesn't really matter. Example:
Person 1: What do you play on?
Person 2: WiiU
Person 1: That kiddie console.
Person 2: Yeah
Person 1: You must be a kid then.
Person 2: I guess I am.

It doesn't matter. Just enjoy what you buy. You buy the console for yourself not for other people.

[Lain]

No,
With the SmartGlass / CrossPlay thing, Microsoft and Sony made a cheap move by detailing it as optional. This easily countered wii u while allowing the other two companies to once again show off greater power and once again and have their SmartGlass / CrossPlay and fail at trying to prove that they are better, and allow idiot trolls to hate on Wii U and stereotype it once again

Oh, and traditional controls don't matter. What everyone has become obsessed with having, is graphics, even the developers want next gen to be powerful, duh

Are you obtuse?

The Wii U can't be "easily countered" if it hasn't even been released yet. You have no empirical evidence and make claims based on nothing.

At this point, this is becoming delusional ranting.

Edited by Lain, 23 July 2012 - 11:18 PM.

[Nollog]

No,
With the SmartGlass / CrossPlay thing, Microsoft and Sony made a cheap move by detailing it as optional. This easily countered wii u while allowing the other two companies to once again show off greater power and once again and have their SmartGlass / CrossPlay and fail at trying to prove that they are better, and allow idiot trolls to hate on Wii U and stereotype it once again

Oh, and traditional controls don't matter. What everyone has become obsessed with having, is graphics, even the developers want next gen to be powerful, duh

Additional options never work.
Look at the powerglove, powerpad, superscope, gameboy printer, gba ereader, game cube internet adapter, wii speak, wii motion plus.....
None of these did too well as additional peripherals released after nintendo hardware.
Had they launched with the system inside the box like the wii u pad will, then they would have more games for them.
More games = more worth = more market = more money = more games = more enjoyment
Smartglass and psv/3 crossplay won't be as enjoyable as the upad.

[3Dude]

First off, the 3DS renders no near far how many pixels what the ps360 does (1080p) also you have to understand that power isn't just one thing. Of course there is games that couldn't be done on the gamecube but could on the xbox and vice versa. RAM (assuming you made a typo) is just one factor of what something can run.

Also Revelations is just a work of geniuses.

1. The game doesn't have a big render distance since it's indoors.
2. Since the game is indoors baked textures looks really good.
3. Good optimization

If you think that the 3DS is on par with PS360 then... um just no.

When people are referring to graphics power in 3ds games, in favorable comparisons to the 360/ps3, they are referring to the features you are dismissing.

Things like real time per pixel lighting, dot 3 normal mapping, global illumination (which by the way, is by and large baked on the hd twins as well) hdr lighting etc Cant be dismissed as features, when the people are talking about the systems ability to render good looking scenes.

The wii wasnt considered weak because it couldnt render in 720p, it was considered weak because it couldnt support the graphical functions devs wanted in their games. If it could, they would have ported all manner of games to the system at a lower rendered resolution.

I also suspect you havent actually PLAYED reveleations. It doesnt bake its textures anymore than 360/ps3 games do (and believe me, they DO.) They are lit per pixel for dot 3 specular luminosity, all the regulars people expect from a similar game on the 360. The textures are dynamic in motion, with real time adjustments to changes in player position/camera orientation and lighting. Even in outdoor environments. The lighting and shading is not baked into the texture like it would have to be for cube or wii.

The game also has a great many very large areas inside the ship, not just the outdoor areas, as the ship is a luxery liner. It even has a replica of a european neighborhood block, and has the largest scale boss battle in the series to date, and levels like terragrigia have very large gameplay areas, and a fully rendered city being ravaged by bow's outside the buildings windows.

Its nowhere near as simple to dismiss as you are implying.

The reason most nintendo games dont have AA is because post processing methods of aa blends neighboring pixels, which has a very bad effect on stereoscopic 3d. And Nintendo apparantly doesnt want to support encouraging users to not use the systems defining feature because they want aa in 2d.

Where the 3ds differs from the 360 ps3 is that, like the cube and wii, its gpu is a fixed function architecture.


Unlike the cube and the wii, the 3ds features modern functions, which is why it can do games the cube and the wii couldnt dream of, like reveleations, with the same same graphical effectd people recognize from ps3/360 games.

The reason many 3rd party games look like doo doo, is because they use middleware that doesnt take into account the 3ds's fantastic fixed function library. So they dont utilize ANY of the hardwares features (see amazing spiderman) instead, treating it like the platform the middleware was designed for (standard programmable shader environments) and simply drop effects until the game can run. (see amazing spiderman). These middleware engines also dont take into account the unique architecture of the 3ds, such as a dsp dedicated to audio processing, and waste cpu resources on audio (see amazing spiderman).

[Hinkik]

When people are referring to graphics power in 3ds games, in favorable comparisons to the 360/ps3, they are referring to the features you are dismissing.

Things like real time per pixel lighting, dot 3 normal mapping, global illumination (which by the way, is by and large baked on the hd twins as well) hdr lighting etc Cant be dismissed as features, when the people are talking about the systems ability to render good looking scenes.

The wii wasnt considered weak because it couldnt render in 720p, it was considered weak because it couldnt support the graphical functions devs wanted in their games. If it could, they would have ported all manner of games to the system at a lower rendered resolution.

I also suspect you havent actually PLAYED reveleations. It doesnt bake its textures anymore than 360/ps3 games do (and believe me, they DO.) They are lit per pixel for dot 3 specular luminosity, all the regulars people expect from a similar game on the 360. The textures are dynamic in motion, with real time adjustments to changes in player position/camera orientation and lighting. Even in outdoor environments. The lighting and shading is not baked into the texture like it would have to be for cube or wii.

The game also has a great many very large areas inside the ship, not just the outdoor areas, as the ship is a luxery liner. It even has a replica of a european neighborhood block, and has the largest scale boss battle in the series to date, and levels like terragrigia have very large gameplay areas, and a fully rendered city being ravaged by bow's outside the buildings windows.

Its nowhere near as simple to dismiss as you are implying.

The reason most nintendo games dont have AA is because post processing methods of aa blends neighboring pixels, which has a very bad effect on stereoscopic 3d. And Nintendo apparantly doesnt want to support encouraging users to not use the systems defining feature because they want aa in 2d.

Where the 3ds differs from the 360 ps3 is that, like the cube and wii, its gpu is a fixed function architecture.


Unlike the cube and the wii, the 3ds features modern functions, which is why it can do games the cube and the wii couldnt dream of, like reveleations, with the same same graphical effectd people recognize from ps3/360 games.

The reason many 3rd party games look like doo doo, is because they use middleware that doesnt take into account the 3ds's fantastic fixed function library. So they dont utilize ANY of the hardwares features (see amazing spiderman) instead, treating it like the platform the middleware was designed for (standard programmable shader environments) and simply drop effects until the game can run. (see amazing spiderman). These middleware engines also dont take into account the unique architecture of the 3ds, such as a dsp dedicated to audio processing, and waste cpu resources on audio (see amazing spiderman).

Well explain to me why every game but revelation looks like crap on the 3DS then? (Talking tech here not artistitaclly)

Seriously no AA low res textures blahblahblah looks terrible.

[Tre]

Well explain to me why every game but revelation looks like crap on the 3DS then? (Talking tech here not artistitaclly)

Seriously no AA low res textures blahblahblah looks terrible.

Even though this shouldn't matter to people who just play what they like. These crap looking games that you speak on depends on the developer. As the system ages, the games will look better. Developers are still trying to figure it out. They don't stop trying until they have done all they can do on the system. Meaning the end of an hardware cycle, thus a new handheld will be in the works then.

Edited by Tre, 24 July 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[Hinkik]

Even though this shouldn't matter to people who just play what they like. These crap looking games that you speak on depends on the developer. As the system ages, the games will look better. Developers are still trying to figure it out. They don't stop trying until they have done all they can do on the system. Meaning the end of an hardware cycle, thus a new handheld will be in the works then.

Yeah you're right about that. Optimization is very important. I mean without it BF3 would never be able to run on PS360.

But there was a point I wanted to prove. That Revelations was using different techniques like baked textures and stuff like that.
That's why Revelations stand out while the others look terrible technically.

I never said anything about the 3DS will never have good looking games. Just said that right now, revelations is the only one that looks really good. And as I said before it relays on a short render distance and baked textures. Because of that, the 3DS had power left to do some amazing things, like AA, higher res textures, nice shaders.

Edited by Hinkik, 25 July 2012 - 12:47 AM.