66 replies to this topic

[3Dude]

Well explain to me why every game but revelation looks like crap on the 3DS then? (Talking tech here not artistitaclly)

Seriously no AA low res textures blahblahblah looks terrible.

Well explain to me why every game but revelation looks like crap on the 3DS then? (Talking tech here not artistitaclly)

Seriously no AA low res textures blahblahblah looks terrible.

I... I just did. In the very post you quoted.

Reveleations doesnt bake the lighting into its textures any more than a 360/ps3 game. It uses real time per pixel lighting, dot 3 normal maps, self shadowing, projected shadowing, hdr lighting, color correction.... It doesnt fake anything and its incredibly obvious you have never played it.

Anyone who owns a 3ds, can, for absolutely free, download the reveleations demo, go up to any texture, rotate the camera around it, and watch the textures update per pixel lighting solutions in real time, which baked textures cant do, because theyre baked.

Yet you keep peddling your complete crap as if no one who actually knows whats going on will notice.

Im not even being sarcastic right now.

Are... Are you ok?

Edited by 3Dude, 25 July 2012 - 05:31 AM.

[Hinkik]

I... I just did. In the very post you quoted.

Reveleations doesnt bake the lighting into its textures any more than a 360/ps3 game. It uses real time per pixel lighting, dot 3 normal maps, self shadowing, projected shadowing, hdr lighting, color correction.... It doesnt fake anything and its incredibly obvious you have never played it.

Anyone who owns a 3ds, can, for absolutely free, download the reveleations demo, go up to any texture, rotate the camera around it, and watch the textures update per pixel lighting solutions in real time, which baked textures cant do, because theyre baked.

Yet you keep peddling your complete crap as if no one who actually knows whats going on will notice.

Im not even being sarcastic right now.

Are... Are you ok?

Why are you being offensive? You never say why other games look bad. You only talk about tech features. If it is because the 3DS has those features and nothing about revelations being a game easy to render why would the other games look bad?

I never said it was faking anything, I was saying it's a scene that is easy to render. Another example is that it's easier to make a sphere look realistic than a complex shape. You are just acting like a douche right now.

And of course you can rotate your camera around baked textures... facepalm. And of course the pixels update it's a real time 3D engine.

The only time the lightning in a baked texture needs to be changed is if the 3D object has been updated. For example a rigged animation. A wall for instance doesn't need to do it. That's why the zombies look a lot worse than the walls and the other static objects.

Edited by Hinkik, 25 July 2012 - 05:55 AM.

[3Dude]

Why are you being offensive? You never say why other games look bad. You only talk about tech features. If it is because the 3DS has those features and nothing about revelations being a game easy to render why would the other games look bad?

I never said it was faking anything, I was saying it's a scene that is easy to render. Another example is that it's easier to make a sphere look realistic than a complex shape. You are just acting like a douche right now.

And of course you can rotate your camera around baked textures... facepalm. And of course the pixels update it's a real time 3D engine.

The only time the lightning in a baked texture needs to be changed is if the 3D object has been updated. For example a rigged animation. A wall for instance doesn't need to do it. That's why the zombies look a lot worse than the walls and the other static objects.

Ugh. Try actually reading the post where I explained the exact things you are claiming i did not. Im not repeating myself because you somehow learned to type without learning how to read.

As for, once again, your completely bogus claims, animated models feature tangent space normal mapping.

They also react to per pixel lighting in real time, from multiple light sources, and fantastically.

And once again, anyone with a 3ds can download, for free, reveleations and look at any enemy in motion and see the textures lighting and shading solutions update in real time, and subsequently, watch your completely fictional claims go down the toilet.

[Foot]

Well, this spiraled out of control...

Ugh. Try actually reading the post where I explained the exact things you are claiming i did not. Im not repeating myself because you somehow learned to type without learning how to read.

As for, once again, your completely bogus claims, animated models feature tangent space normal mapping.

They also react to per pixel lighting in real time, from multiple light sources, and fantastically.

And once again, anyone with a 3ds can download, for free, reveleations and look at any enemy in motion and see the textures lighting and shading solutions update in real time, and subsequently, watch your completely fictional claims go down the toilet.

The point that he's making as actually a very good observation, so don't be a hater troll

[3Dude]

Well, this spiraled out of control...



The point that he's making as actually a very good observation, so don't be a hater troll

No, its not. Its observably erroneous and entirely fictitios, to anyone who actually knows what hes talking about, which he clearly doesnt.


"And of course you can rotate your camera around baked textures... facepalm. And of course the pixels update it's a real time 3D engine."

Whats happening here, is that this guy is so completely clueless he doesnt understand what the very buzz words hes been brandishing about mean, and thus, has absolutely no idea what context to be arguing in. Which is why he made the gem of an argument I quoted above.

Baking textures is a way of making lighting and shadowing look good in a scene without rendering it in real time. How its done is the scene is lit in real time on a development platform, with tons of different texture layers and lighting models, normal maps, global illumination, ray tracing, the whole works. The finished results of the lighting on all the different layers is then compiled into a single texture file. Compiling many files into a single one is something typically referred to as cooking or baking. Be it for textures or compiling all the files in a game into a single executable file . Hence the name baked textures. This texture is nothing more than a single diffuse layer. The lighting and shadowing is just drawn on. It doesnt respond to anything, regaurdless to changes in the camera position, or lighting in a scene. its just a drawing slapped over polygons.

Real time lighting using normal mapping, updates each individual pixel and changes its color according to its assigned x,y,z height values, and the lighting in the scene, as dictated by its normal map layer.

When the camera is rotated around baked textures, which is what he claims reveleations is doing, the pixel colours remain the same, because they are just drawn on lighting and shadowing, they arent done in real time.

When rotated around real time per pixel lit environments, each pixel of a texture changes to accurately represent how the light in the scene bounces off of them and into the camera. 'bumps' will light up as they catch light and become highlights, and recessions will darken as the light doesnt reach them from that angle.

Turn on your 3ds and load up reveleations. Go up to a texture, rotate the camera. Pick the description that matches whats happening with the lighting on the texture.

Exactly.

So completely clueless was he, that when presented with a description of how a real time per pixel lit texture differs from a prebaked one, he responded with an argument about whether reveleations was rendeted in real time 3d, or pre rendered like the old re games.

He HAS no point whatsoever. Everything he has stated has been a flat out lie.

[Foot]

No, its not. Its observably erroneous and entirely fictitios, to anyone who actually knows what hes talking about, which he clearly doesnt.


"And of course you can rotate your camera around baked textures... facepalm. And of course the pixels update it's a real time 3D engine."

Whats happening here, is that this guy is so completely clueless he doesnt understand what the very buzz words hes been brandishing about mean, and thus, has absolutely no idea what context to be arguing in. Which is why he made the gem of an argument I quoted above.

Baking textures is a way of making lighting and shadowing look good in a scene without rendering it in real time. How its done is the scene is lit in real time on a development platform, with tons of different texture layers and lighting models, normal maps, global illumination, ray tracing, the whole works. The finished results of the lighting on all the different layers is then compiled into a single texture file. Compiling many files into a single one is something typically referred to as cooking or baking. Be it for textures or compiling all the files in a game into a single executable file . Hence the name baked textures. This texture is nothing more than a single diffuse layer. The lighting and shadowing is just drawn on. It doesnt respond to anything, regaurdless to changes in the camera position, or lighting in a scene. its just a drawing slapped over polygons.

Real time lighting using normal mapping, updates each individual pixel and changes its color according to its assigned x,y,z height values, and the lighting in the scene, as dictated by its normal map layer.

When the camera is rotated around baked textures, which is what he claims reveleations is doing, the pixel colours remain the same, because they are just drawn on lighting and shadowing, they arent done in real time.

When rotated around real time per pixel lit environments, each pixel of a texture changes to accurately represent how the light in the scene bounces off of them and into the camera. 'bumps' will light up as they catch light and become highlights, and recessions will darken as the light doesnt reach them from that angle.

Turn on your 3ds and load up reveleations. Go up to a texture, rotate the camera. Pick the description that matches whats happening with the lighting on the texture.

Exactly.

So completely clueless was he, that when presented with a description of how a real time per pixel lit texture differs from a prebaked one, he responded with an argument about whether reveleations was rendeted in real time 3d, or pre rendered like the old re games.

He HAS no point whatsoever. Everything he has stated has been a flat out lie.

Oh so you're one of those Conservative Graphics trolls.

The point of you and Hinkik's little showdown was that Revelations has the most AMAZING 3DS graphics, and yet you still have a reason to complain about a portable system made by Nintendo, and designed to give us a great gaming experience. You are EXACTLY WHAT THIS ARTICLE IS TRYING TO PROVE about how PS3 and XBox fanboys stereotype the Nintendo because it's "not good enough." and while Revelations is not the best looking RE game, it proves it's point.


HOW THE HECK DID WE GO FROM WII U TO RE: REVELATIONS?!?! Am I high or something? A̶g̶a̶i̶n̶

[3Dude]

Oh so you're one of those Conservative Graphics trolls.

The point of you and Hinkik's little showdown was that Revelations has the most AMAZING 3DS graphics, and yet you still have a reason to complain about a portable system made by Nintendo, and designed to give us a great gaming experience. You are EXACTLY WHAT THIS ARTICLE IS TRYING TO PROVE about how PS3 and XBox fanboys stereotype the Nintendo because it's "not good enough." and while Revelations is not the best looking RE game, it proves it's point.


HOW THE HECK DID WE GO FROM WII U TO RE: REVELATIONS?!?! Am I high or something? A̶g̶a̶i̶n̶

How exactly is proving reveleations generously uses real time per pixel lighting with dot 3 normal mapping (ps3/360) over someone falsely claiming it uses baked textures (ps2, ds, psp, n64, psx)

Stereotyping the systems graphics arent good enough?

Am I missing something? is this forum permately stuck in opposite world or something?

Edited by 3Dude, 25 July 2012 - 07:07 AM.

[Hinkik]

How exactly is proving reveleations generously uses real time per pixel lighting with dot 3 normal mapping (ps3/360) over someone falsely claiming it uses baked textures (ps2, ds, psp, n64, psx)

Stereotyping the systems graphics arent good enough?

Am I missing something? is this forum permately stuck in opposite world or something?

What if we start from scratch? You stop being offensive is a good start. Me stop thinking I know 100% about stuff is also a good start.

Also we both have to stop thinking one is 100% right.

Do you really think I'm not right about rendering a short distance indoor scene is easier than other scenes?

Edited by Hinkik, 25 July 2012 - 07:20 AM.

[Naomi]

I'm scared....

[3Dude]

What if we start from scratch? You stop being offensive is a good start. Me stop thinking I know 100% about stuff is also a good start.

Also we both have to stop thinking one is 100% right.

Do you really think I'm not right about rendering a short distance indoor scene is easier than other scenes?

1. I do know 100% what im talking about.

2. Your point is irrelevant to reveleations, as the game is typically comprised of large set peices, With the small areas you are assuming comprise the majority of the game comprising nothing more than pathways to the large areas. Something well known by people who have actually played the game.

[3Dude]

Yes I've watched you guys go back and forth without a solution. I think you orignal question was never answered. Why does all the other games on 3ds look so bad. There are a few answer to that question. 1 is lazy developers. What you see in revelations is capcom saying we aare gonna see what this thing can do. They are actually trying to push the system in terms of graphics. Not everyone has that mentality. And for their hard work we got an amazing looking game like revelations. Not every developer feels like putting time(and money) into making a handheld game look good. Lot of developers feel like the handheld consumer is more casual and in that don't see the need to try and push console level graphics on a handheld. For as nintendo goes a lot of their franchises(what you have seen so far 3d land, and MK7) don't need a lot of visual effects. They are colorful games that look good in their own right but aren't designed to push a console graphics. Now if we were to see(which I'm hoping and will be dissapointed if we didn't) a F-zero title on 3ds things would change drastically. That franchise is designed to push graphics more console like. Did you play fzero gx on gamecube it still looks better than 95 percent of wii games. So that's pretty much why you see the drastic difference in graphics on 3ds from 1st and 3rd party developers.

Is this a special event going on today that Im not in on?

Is it bizarro world day? Everybody pretend they cant read day?

Im not even being sarcastic, this is completely ridiculous.

"The reason many 3rd party games look like doo doo, is because they use middleware that doesnt take into account the 3ds's fantastic fixed function library. So they dont utilize ANY of the hardwares features (see amazing spiderman) instead, treating it like the platform the middleware was designed for (standard programmable shader environments) and simply drop effects until the game can run. (see amazing spiderman). These middleware engines also dont take into account the unique architecture of the 3ds, such as a dsp dedicated to audio processing, and waste cpu resources on audio (see amazing spiderman)."

This was in my very first response to him, and I told him to go back and read it multiple times.

Holy crap.

Edited by 3Dude, 25 July 2012 - 07:56 AM.

[Hinkik]

1. I do know 100% what im talking about.

2. Your point is irrelevant to reveleations, as the game is typically comprised of large set peices, With the small areas you are assuming comprise the majority of the game comprising nothing more than pathways to the large areas. Something well known by people who have actually played the game.

Okay mr 100% always right. Seriously stop with that you are just acting lame.

My point is based on revelations since it's a game that is easy to render. A speculation why it's one of the few games on 3DS that look good.

Is this a special event going on today that Im not in on?

Is it bizarro world day? Everybody pretend they cant read day?

Im not even being sarcastic, this is completely ridiculous.

"The reason many 3rd party games look like doo doo, is because they use middleware that doesnt take into account the 3ds's fantastic fixed function library. So they dont utilize ANY of the hardwares features (see amazing spiderman) instead, treating it like the platform the middleware was designed for (standard programmable shader environments) and simply drop effects until the game can run. (see amazing spiderman). These middleware engines also dont take into account the unique architecture of the 3ds, such as a dsp dedicated to audio processing, and waste cpu resources on audio (see amazing spiderman)."

This was in my very first response to him, and I told him to go back and read it multiple times.

Holy crap.

That doesn't answer anything. Why does Nintendo themsleves not make games even near revelation quality?

Right now you are treating me as if I can't be right there is not a single chance I can be right. That I know nothing.

Edited by Hinkik, 25 July 2012 - 08:13 AM.

[3Dude]

Okay mr 100% always right. Seriously stop with that you are just acting lame.

My point is based on revelations since it's a game that is easy to render. A speculation why it's one of the few games on 3DS that look good.



That doesn't answer anything. Why does Nintendo themsleves not make games even near revelation quality?

Right now you are treating me as if I can't be right there is not a single chance I can be right. That I know nothing.

Nintendo HAS released games that use many of the same effects as reveleations.

They just choose not to portray it in a realistic art style, which is why many people dont make the connection.

Super mario 3dland has simply FANTASTIC shader work lighting, it completely blows galaxies shader work (embm+emboss mapping+specular layer) out of the water, its just because of the 3dland art style, most people arent capable of recognizing it until it becomes slap you across the face obvious, like the stonework castle in the rain.

The reason Nintendo hasnt made many 3ds games that look like reveleations, is because, historically, Nintendo simply doesnt make many games that look like reveleations.

If you want to see what Nintendo can cook up with a more realistic and obvious 'good graphics' art style, you will have to wait for metroid 3ds, or a Zelda 3ds game thats not a remastering of an n64 game.

There is nothing easy to render about reveleations, Its a game drenched in heavy effects, with typically large sized areas, with lots of complex geometry, and detailed geometry of objects up close. Your erroneous point you keep hammering away on is based on an erroneously preconcieved notion of how you believe visuals like reveleations could be done on a system that you erroneously believe cant handle what reveleations does in real time.

So, since you never played the game, you rationalize that it must be comprised of tiny areas, like hallways, has a small number of enemies, which it uses to free up the resources to apply the fancy effects it does.

Which is simply not true. The majority of reveleations comprisis of large set peices, like a replication of a venice neighborhood block, a massive ballroom, a huge lobby of a high class corporate building with a rendered city street being overun by bow's running in the background, outside the glass walls, outdoor areas etc etc etc. If it didnt, the sniper rifle wouldnt be a very sensible weapon to include in the game.

The reason CAPCOM can make a game that looks like reveleations, and other companies who make similar realistic styled games cant, like ubisofts splinter cell 3ds, is because Capcom actually bothered to make a version of their mtframework engine that is based on the 3ds's architecture, while other companies, use engines like unreal 2, which is not only outdated, but has NO idea how to communicate with the 3ds's graphic pipeline for effects like normal mapping, self shadowing, per pixel lighting, volumetric fog rendering, hdr lighting, color correction, embm, speculars.

So it doesnt. It just spits out a game with bare minimum effects, not running the way the system was designed to use them, thus sucking up enormous amounts of unnecessary overhead emulating a different rendering environment.

What does dropping all those effects do to a game that was designed to use them? It makes them look like most 3rd party 3ds games.

But heres a an example.

This is doom III. Yeah, its a bit of an oldie now, but actually it makes for a pretty good example.



This is doom III, dropping all the effects.



This is what most devs are doing for their 3ds games. They are dropping the effects, because their middleware engines arent designed for how the 3ds handles its graphics.

[giggity3000]

Nintendo really has put them selves in A bad position. Sony and Microsoft are making the screens optional so they can focus on power while still competing with nintendo and preventing them from stealing the audience, while nintendo is making the traditional controls optional so they can focus on gimmicks. Some people still think it's an add-on and not A full console. Nintendo's sealed for this next gen as A repeat if they don't make A Ps2 scenario. I know that i won't be getting it was going too but with all these rumours and risks i'd rather buy A different console and garauntee satisfaction with my purchases instead of taking pointless risks.

[Hinkik]

Nintendo HAS released games that use many of the same effects as reveleations.

They just choose not to portray it in a realistic art style, which is why many people dont make the connection.

Super mario 3dland has simply FANTASTIC shader work lighting, it completely blows galaxies shader work (embm+emboss mapping+specular layer) out of the water, its just because of the 3dland art style, most people arent capable of recognizing it until it becomes slap you across the face obvious, like the stonework castle in the rain.

The reason Nintendo hasnt made many 3ds games that look like reveleations, is because, historically, Nintendo simply doesnt make many games that look like reveleations.

If you want to see what Nintendo can cook up with a more realistic and obvious 'good graphics' art style, you will have to wait for metroid 3ds, or a Zelda 3ds game thats not a remastering of an n64 game.

There is nothing easy to render about reveleations, Its a game drenched in heavy effects, with typically large sized areas, with lots of complex geometry, and detailed geometry of objects up close. Your erroneous point you keep hammering away on is based on an erroneously preconcieved notion of how you believe visuals like reveleations could be done on a system that you erroneously believe cant handle what reveleations does in real time.

So, since you never played the game, you rationalize that it must be comprised of tiny areas, like hallways, has a small number of enemies, which it uses to free up the resources to apply the fancy effects it does.

Which is simply not true. The majority of reveleations comprisis of large set peices, like a replication of a venice neighborhood block, a massive ballroom, a huge lobby of a high class corporate building with a rendered city street being overun by bow's running in the background, outside the glass walls, outdoor areas etc etc etc. If it didnt, the sniper rifle wouldnt be a very sensible weapon to include in the game.

The reason CAPCOM can make a game that looks like reveleations, and other companies who make similar realistic styled games cant, like ubisofts splinter cell 3ds, is because Capcom actually bothered to make a version of their mtframework engine that is based on the 3ds's architecture, while other companies, use engines like unreal 2, which is not only outdated, but has NO idea how to communicate with the 3ds's graphic pipeline for effects like normal mapping, self shadowing, per pixel lighting, volumetric fog rendering, hdr lighting, color correction, embm, speculars.

So it doesnt. It just spits out a game with bare minimum effects, not running the way the system was designed to use them, thus sucking up enormous amounts of unnecessary overhead emulating a different rendering environment.

What does dropping all those effects do to a game that was designed to use them? It makes them look like most 3rd party 3ds games.

But heres a an example.

This is doom III. Yeah, its a bit of an oldie now, but actually it makes for a pretty good example.



This is doom III, dropping all the effects.



This is what most devs are doing for their 3ds games. They are dropping the effects, because their middleware engines arent designed for how the 3ds handles its graphics.

Yep that's totally true.

But here is one example.

New Super Mario Bros 2. A game that doesn't involve anything super duper hardware intense. But still has a terrible AA for example. Why is that?

[Mitch]

I think this is worth reading.

IMO Nintendo has officially gotten themselves screwed in terms of the Wii U. With Microsoft's SmartGlass and Sony's Vita/PS3 CrossPlay, and both being optional accessory's instead of almost necessary Wii U Gamepad, Microsoft and Sony can stick with traditional controls and make their consoles even MORE powerful than what we are all expecting. Now I hate how people think that Gaming is all about graphics but in reality, it's about the Gameplay experience in which the Wii U delivers this aspect in the best. HOWEVER, with Hardware costs having to be kept down to include the Gamepad, the graphics won't be as good as PS4 and XBOX Next, so trolls will have another reason to hate on the Wii U and third-parties will see this and once again pledge their games on Sony and Microsoft, leaving Nintendo in the dust...again, like they were with the Wii. Undoubtfully though Wii U WILL succeed because of the Loyal Nintendo fans, though we will see a repeat of the current generation.

Not worth reading at all^^^... so many Debby downers and doom and gloom predictors on this site...

The Wii U will be powerful enough to get full 3rd party support, The Wii U will have all the Nintendo 1st party games, therefore unless you are a hardcore Halo, Fable or Forza fan there is no reason to buy Xbox 8, Sony has a bit more in department of 1st party games and it will also be the most powerful console but i dont think overall it will be a big enough difference that it would even be that big of a visual difference with the Wii U,

if you dont wanna play with the gamepad then dont, they made the Wii u pro controller. and Smart glass and the PS3/vita is a joke, if that's the best they got they are the ones who are doomed my friend

[Lain]

Nintendo really has put them selves in A bad position. Sony and Microsoft are making the screens optional so they can focus on power while still competing with nintendo and preventing them from stealing the audience, while nintendo is making the traditional controls optional so they can focus on gimmicks. Some people still think it's an add-on and not A full console. Nintendo's sealed for this next gen as A repeat if they don't make A Ps2 scenario. I know that i won't be getting it was going too but with all these rumours and risks i'd rather buy A different console and garauntee satisfaction with my purchases instead of taking pointless risks.

Ugh, I'm feeling sick

Why do you guys continue to post the same "argument" without even elaborating on how it happens?

Edited by Lain, 25 July 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[Link707]

Nintendo really has put them selves in A bad position. Sony and Microsoft are making the screens optional so they can focus on power while still competing with nintendo and preventing them from stealing the audience, while nintendo is making the traditional controls optional so they can focus on gimmicks. Some people still think it's an add-on and not A full console. Nintendo's sealed for this next gen as A repeat if they don't make A Ps2 scenario. I know that i won't be getting it was going too but with all these rumours and risks i'd rather buy A different console and garauntee satisfaction with my purchases instead of taking pointless risks.

The definition of a gimmick. a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use.
Please explain to me how the wii remote or the wii u gamepad is a gimmick. You know what is?? Kinect, move, cross play, smart glass. Nintendo is trying to evolve the traditional gaming experience. Also please explain how the wiiu's fate is sealed before it launches. People aren't willing to drop a lot of money on consoles. It's the main reason why vita is failing. Ok you obviously have no budget and can wait over a year to buy a sustem that wont have the features wii u does or the games(that will probably look just as good). If you have been keeping up with rumors you would know that Wii u is rumored to be upto 4x current. While nextbox is pretty much confirmed 4-6x. That puts on par with wii u. Please stay with your fanboyism as i can plainly tell you are, as you won't give a console a chance before or even after it comes out without actual proof to back you up. Also please say good buy to Sony gaming after this gen because they are pretty much going to drop it. No mention of ps brand in their financial report and losing billions of dollars. They are restructuring their company around stuff that makes them money, definitely not play station anymore.