135 replies to this topic

[Splint]

[Dusean17]

Yeah that's not true, PS4 8x over PS3 and Wii U isn't an exponential leap over PS3 but its a large one.
Not being a Fanboy but why would a console that's waayyy more powerful have graphics comparable...

[routerbad]

Not sure what you are comparing here. Art style aside, any modern GPU can render that face on the right. In fact any GPU in the last 3 years has been able to handily. This isn't anything new.

Yeah that's not true, PS4 8x over PS3 and Wii U isn't an exponential leap over PS3 but its a large one.
Not being a Fanboy but why would a console that's waayyy more powerful have graphics comparable...

Wii is quite a bit stronger than the PS3 and the X360. Wii U and PS4 have a common shader architecture. The big difference is that Nintendo went crazy custom with the GPU logic and the memory architecture, and PS4 went with commercially available kit. PS4 is basically an HTPC running a GPU that is somewhere between mid and high end (probably 6770 or something close to it). You all really need to take another look at what Nintendo showed at the Wii U reveal again, two years ago, which was mindblowing at the time.

[Alex Atkin UK]

killzone is all bloom lol

also half of the ps4s power will be used for the streaming and video capture that's something you need to remember

None of the PS4s power is used for streaming or video capture, it has dedicated hardware that does that. The dedicated CPU used for background downloads may even offload the whole networking stack, it would make sense as that could lower latency for online gaming too. Its sad as Nintendo came up with this idea first, but totally didn't deliver on it. Remember how originally they said that the Wii in standby mode was supposed to automatically download the latest games for you, then they said it again for 3DS, yet neither has that feature! On Wii U we don't even have Wii Connect24 for messsages never mind downloads.

As for how much more powerful is PS4 than Wii U? I recon its about 4x if it indeed can manage 1.8TFLOPS on the GPU, the general opinion is the Wii U GPU at best does 352GFLOPS. The CPU also is pretty much guaranteed to be significantly more powerful than Wii U as Sony have no qualms over pulling 200W from the mains, which is SIX times the power the Wii U currently uses, although obviously a chunk of that goes to the HDD, USB 3 ports, etc. However people seem to forget just how important the CPU is to things like AI, stuff that makes a game more interesting or challenging.

Another thing which people seem to keep missing is the reason PS4 was bumped up to 8GB RAM is because the Xbox supposedly has 8GB RAM. The PS4 having half the RAM of the Xbox would have been a HUGE issue, and thus the Wii U having only 2GB is an enormous problem for multi-platform releases in the future.

When designing a game you need to know how much RAM you will have, its not really possible to scale it backwards once you already have everything in place. You develop on the machine with the least resources and then scale up the other versions, like Need for Speed Most Wanted on Wii U. For that reason alone I think Wii U will lose a lot of multi-platform titles once 360/PS3 is no longer supported. Its a few years away I expect, but its worth thinking about.

You see for a game to run on Wii U and next-gen, they would have to write it for Wii U then port to PS4/Xbox (or write a separate version for Wii U exclusively, which is more expensive), not the other way around. But it would be a huge waste of all that RAM and CPU power to do that, as it would effectively be holding back the PS4s potential, just like current consoles hold back PC games. So unless the publishers see a good market for Wii U games, they just aren't going to do it. Even if they did, they would be heavily watered down versions.

The Wii U is a good console, but if you think its going to get games that play remotely like the PS4/Xbox Next version (once they start developing specifically for those consoles), you will be sorely disappointed.

Of course we should also take all the footage Sony showed us at the reveal with a piece of salt, the sheer fact the Killzone screenshots at 4K is proof enough to me that the game was NOT running on actual PS4 hardware. Its already been admitted that the Watch Dogs footage was actually the PC version, which makes you wonder if they will actually pull off those graphics in time for launch. We all know things went trying to rush Wii U games for launch.

Edited by Alex Atkin UK, 23 February 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[nintendofreak247]

Different art styles, not a fair comparison.

Edited by nintendofreak247, 23 February 2013 - 07:15 PM.

[routerbad]

None of the PS4s power is used for streaming or video capture, it has dedicated hardware that does that. The dedicated CPU used for background downloads may even offload the whole networking stack, it would make sense as that could lower latency for online gaming too. Its sad as Nintendo came up with this idea first, but totally didn't deliver on it. Remember how originally they said that the Wii in standby mode was supposed to automatically download the latest games for you, then they said it again for 3DS, yet neither has that feature! On Wii U we don't even have Wii Connect24 for messsages never mind downloads.

They mentioned the dedicated assist chip would be used to help with background game downloading and streaming, not video encode or livestreaming, or any of the other social features. I suspect they'll use it to push to the Vita as well. People seem to be having common misconceptions about this, they ever mentioned it would be used to offload background processing in general.

As for how much more powerful is PS4 than Wii U? I recon its about 4x if it indeed can manage 1.8TFLOPS on the GPU, the general opinion is the Wii U GPU at best does 352GFLOPS. The CPU also is pretty much guaranteed to be significantly more powerful than Wii U as Sony have no qualms over pulling 200W from the mains, which is SIX times the power the Wii U currently uses, although obviously a chunk of that goes to the HDD, USB 3 ports, etc. However people seem to forget just how important the CPU is to things like AI, stuff that makes a game more interesting or challenging.

More watts =/= more processing power. Efficiency trumps gluttony. They'll never get close to getting 1.8 TFLOPS during gameplay, the Wii U will likely do things not conceived as possible with 352 GFLOPS. Remember 50% of the silicon is still unknown to everyone, it's already been stated that the GPU and CPU punch quite above their weight. People also seem to forget that rendering an image, simultaneously encoding it to video, and simultaneously streaming that video over the network, and simultaneously maintaining a connection with PSN and social feeds, etc take CPU time, which developers are going to have to allow for when coding their games.

Another thing which people seem to keep missing is the reason PS4 was bumped up to 8GB RAM is because the Xbox supposedly has 8GB RAM. The PS4 having half the RAM of the Xbox would have been a HUGE issue, and thus the Wii U having only 2GB is an enormous problem for multi-platform releases in the future.

I believe the PS4 was bumped to 8GB of RAM because it needed all it could get so at least the memory wouldn't get bogged down by all the background processing going on. media encoding is extremely memory intensive as well. I agree 2GB will become a burden at some point, but DDR3 is better general purpose RAM than GDDR5 (GDDR5 has very loose timings) and having to access GDDR5 through a northbridge is going to cause issues as well. GPU's use GDDR5 and get away with loose timings because they are directly connected to the GPU on a very fast bus which relieves latency issues a lot and takes advantage of the pure speed advantage over DDR3. Also, PS4 will not have the 32MB of edRAM (or is it 1S-TRAM, can't remember) not just on die but integrated directly into the GPU, which is a big shot in the arm, and will alleviate the need for massive amounts of RAM in the short term.

When designing a game you need to know how much RAM you will have, its not really possible to scale it backwards once you already have everything in place. You develop on the machine with the least resources and then scale up the other versions, like Need for Speed Most Wanted on Wii U. For that reason alone I think Wii U will lose a lot of multi-platform titles once 360/PS3 is no longer supported. Its a few years away I expect, but its worth thinking about.

Check PC RAM usage during gameplay, not a single game save crysis need 2GB at this point. That will change in the future, true, but given what devs have been able to pull of with 256MB on the PS3 I'm not worried.

You see for a game to run on Wii U and next-gen, they would have to write it for Wii U then port to PS4/Xbox (or write a separate version for Wii U exclusively, which is more expensive), not the other way around. But it would be a huge waste of all that RAM and CPU power to do that, as it would effectively be holding back the PS4s potential, just like current consoles hold back PC games. So unless the publishers see a good market for Wii U games, they just aren't going to do it. Even if they did, they would be heavily watered down versions.

They'll have to develop the game side by side for Wii U the same way they develop 360 and PS3 versions side by side, both versions being specifically built for that console. This isn't anything new.

The Wii U is a good console, but if you think its going to get games that play remotely like the PS4/Xbox Next version (once they start developing specifically for those consoles), you will be sorely disappointed.

I think when people see what actual gameplay in a decently sized game world with all of the background processing going on PS4 they will be disappointed. Not much, people got over it eventually with the PS3.

Of course we should also take all the footage Sony showed us at the reveal with a piece of salt, the sheer fact the Killzone screenshots at 4K is proof enough to me that the game was NOT running on actual PS4 hardware. Its already been admitted that the Watch Dogs footage was actually the PC version, which makes you wonder if they will actually pull off those graphics in time for launch. We all know things went trying to rush Wii U games for launch.

All of the footage was shown on PC hardware. Given that they just recently made the change to 8GB of RAM (last couple of months) they don't have hardware yet, which is why they didn't show it. Similar situation for the Wii U. Hardware specs were in flux and being changed during the reveal. Also, most of what we saw was target renders, which is not a problem, but if you look at the Wii U launch, Reggie was very specific when he said "these are not finished products and not gameplay, just interactive demonstrations and prototypes", I think Sony did the same, but let everyone jump to their own conclusions.

[Socalmuscle]

Lol

You are seriously comparing an alpha (beta?) actual in-game asset (of necessary complexity to fit within a huge, character and background filled game world) used at the end of an early game trailer--- with a special, single Tech demo, using all the systems power to render a face? As a concept of the possibilities? Wow.

Wow.

Now compare that wii u face with this actual in game footage in ps4. In particular the face renderings.

http://www.nowgamer.com/siteimage/scale/0/0/354742.png


Or this...

http://www.destructoid.com//ul/246366-aaheader.jpg

The killzone models seem very similar to ac3.

Edited by Socalmuscle, 23 February 2013 - 10:19 PM.

[Splint]

Lol

You are seriously comparing an alpha (beta?) actual in-game asset (of necessary complexity to fit within a huge, character and background filled game world) used at the end of an early game trailer--- with a special, single Tech demo, using all the systems power to render a face? As a concept of the possibilities? Wow.

Wow.

Now compare that wii u face with this actual in game footage in ps4. In particular the face renderings.

http://www.nowgamer..../0/0/354742.png


Or this...

http://www.destructo...66-aaheader.jpg

The killzone models seem very similar to ac3.

umm, Quantic Dream said that is what their future games will be using, so not "all the systems power". They said they could do better too.

And people have been comparing ''X'' to Ps4 games saying it not a noticeable difference, some even saying X is better...lmao:

"Wii U's X game, actually in this thread, looks just as amazing as anything else on PS4 so far. Oh, wait, is that surprising when both are next gen games?"


this guy breaks it down pretty well:  http://www.neogaf.co...5&postcount=836

Look, I have a wii u and I bet X,zelda,mario3d will have better gameplay than most games on the ps4 - BUT I see some posts in this place that make me laugh. Ps4 can handle more stuff, so its not just about better graphics, even though it does, it's better everything (physics, ai, etc). More things happening on screen. Subtle things that make the scene look better, perhaps make some gameplay better. Not "WiiU=ps4 graphics"

[routerbad]

umm, Quantic Dream said that is what their future games will be using, so not "all the systems power". They said they could do better too.

And people have been comparing ''X'' to Ps4 games saying it not a noticeable difference, some even saying X is better...lmao:

"Wii U's X game, actually in this thread, looks just as amazing as anything else on PS4 so far. Oh, wait, is that surprising when both are next gen games?"


this guy breaks it down pretty well: http://www.neogaf.co...5&postcount=836

Look, I have a wii u and I bet X,zelda,mario3d will have better gameplay than most games on the ps4 - BUT I see some posts in this place that make me laugh. Ps4 can handle more stuff, so its not just about better graphics, even though it does, it's better everything (physics, ai, etc). More things happening on screen. Subtle things that make the scene look better, perhaps make some gameplay better. Not "WiiU=ps4 graphics"

Quantic dream do make very detailed in game faces, it's kindof their specialty. They may be able to put that detailed a model in a game at some point, but only during very specific scenes, a la heavy rain.

Quantic dream do make very detailed in game faces, it's kindof their specialty. They may be able to put that detailed a model in a game at some point, but only during very specific scenes, a la heavy rain. Keep in mind heavy rain offered very little in terms of gameplay, most of the game was quicktime events. Also, the rest of the environment was underwhelming and not interactive.

Edited by routerbad, 23 February 2013 - 11:42 PM.

[Splint]

also the killzone models dont look like ac3. The orange light makes it look weird. But again, look at the background and see more of everything, unlike AC3.

[routerbad]

Edited by routerbad, 24 February 2013 - 12:00 AM.

[backudog]

I think Watchdogs will be a good example of just how the wiiu stacks up graphically against other consoles, as its being released on pretty much everything ( wiiu ,360 and 720 , ps3 & 4 ). Once the usual batch of graphics comparison vids (360 vs ps3 type of thing) are released after the games launch we'll have our answer. Assuming the wiiu version is built specifically for the wiiu from the ground up and not just a 360 port or whatever.

[routerbad]

I think Watchdogs will be a good example of just how the wiiu stacks up graphically against other consoles, as its being released on pretty much everything ( wiiu ,360 and 720 , ps3 & 4 ). Once the usual batch of graphics comparison vids (360 vs ps3 type of thing) are released after the games launch we'll have our answer. Assuming the wiiu version is built specifically for the wiiu from the ground up and not just a 360 port or whatever.

I agree to some extent. They (next gen consoles) should all look just like the PC version.

Oh and as for the face, this was done on a 6 year old (around there lol) engine.

[Socalmuscle]

umm, Quantic Dream said that is what their future games will be using, so not "all the systems power". They said they could do better too.

And people have been comparing ''X'' to Ps4 games saying it not a noticeable difference, some even saying X is better...lmao:

"Wii U's X game, actually in this thread, looks just as amazing as anything else on PS4 so far. Oh, wait, is that surprising when both are next gen games?"


this guy breaks it down pretty well: http://www.neogaf.co...5&postcount=836

Look, I have a wii u and I bet X,zelda,mario3d will have better gameplay than most games on the ps4 - BUT I see some posts in this place that make me laugh. Ps4 can handle more stuff, so its not just about better graphics, even though it does, it's better everything (physics, ai, etc). More things happening on screen. Subtle things that make the scene look better, perhaps make some gameplay better. Not "WiiU=ps4 graphics"

Regardless of what they "said" they only showed a face. And none of the ps4 games matched that. At all. When they had to draw more then a face. Period. And I don't care what some forum member says. You have "breakdowns" left and right. Lol

And is anyone seriously attacking what is admittedly an early development video? Oh noes! Asset pop-in at the alpha-beta stage!
Nintendo simply is honest in what they show. Not heavily edited/limited footage that is highly scripted. Sony also markets better. They sent out 4k resolution screens of ps4 games even though ps4 won't render genes that high. Where do you think those extra pixels cane from... Not anything honest... Lol

But the point is that it was plain stupid to compare a tech demo that only has to draw a very small portion (thus making it very detailed) versus an early in-game asset.

Doesn't get any more ridiculous.

I posted supposed in game ps4 assets. That's an apples to apples comparison. All of a sudden, things look a lot more normal don't they... Lol

I agree to some extent. They (next gen consoles) should all look just like the PC version.

Oh and as for the face, this was done on a 6 year old (around there lol) engine.

Actually there is a character in halo 4 rendered better. And that's on the 369. Lol

Wii u and other next gen consoles will exceed that.

Lol

Edited by Socalmuscle, 24 February 2013 - 12:44 AM.

[routerbad]

Yeah just trying to point out that the killzone shot is nothing new. And the Killzone models do look very much like ACIII character models.

Edited by routerbad, 24 February 2013 - 12:47 AM.

[Socalmuscle]

Yeah just trying to point out that the killzone shot is nothing new.

Agreed.

No one is arguing the ps4 isn't a good bit more powerful than the wii u.

What has been contended is that the ps4 hasn't shown anything yet that is mind losing or distances itself from the wii u.

The only things that do have that possibly is the capcom non-game footage. and that looks amazing. Ps4 should be able to pull that off in certain game type situations when the system is fully utilized.

For most games, the wii u will stack up well. And the wii u itself hasn't even been tapped yet.

Edited by Socalmuscle, 24 February 2013 - 12:54 AM.

[PedanticGamer]

Agreed.

No one is arguing the ps4 isn't a good bit more powerful than the wii u.

What has been contended is that the ps4 hasn't shown anything yet that is mind losing or distances itself from the wii u.

The only things that do have that possibly is the capcom non-game footage. and that looks amazing. Ps4 should be able to pull that off in certain game type situations when the system is fully utilized.

For most games, the wii u will stack up well. And the wii u itself hasn't even been tapped yet.

The reflections in the Killzone vid far exceed what the wiiU has shown itself to be able to do and in all likelihood is more then the wiiU will be able to do. Is that a problem, well yes and no. Nintendo have once again not backed power, rather a gimmick, which we have yet to see how much that will entice people.

[3Dude]

umm, Quantic Dream said that is what their future games will be using, so not "all the systems power". They said they could do better too.
And people have been comparing ''X'' to Ps4 games saying it not a noticeable difference, some even saying X is better...lmao:
"Wii U's X game, actually in this thread, looks just as amazing as anything else on PS4 so far. Oh, wait, is that surprising when both are next gen games?"

this guy breaks it down pretty well: http://www.neogaf.co...5&postcount=836
Look, I have a wii u and I bet X,zelda,mario3d will have better gameplay than most games on the ps4 - BUT I see some posts in this place that make me laugh. Ps4 can handle more stuff, so its not just about better graphics, even though it does, it's better everything (physics, ai, etc). More things happening on screen. Subtle things that make the scene look better, perhaps make some gameplay better. Not "WiiU=ps4 graphics"

I Dont know whats going on in here, or if people REALLY are trying to debate whether wii u somehow keeps up with ps4 specs (it doesnt, its outclassed 3 or 4 times).

But that guys post and explanation are complete crap, particularly on the subject hes talking about, which is wii u open world games vs ps360 open world games (a far cry from the on rails with cool backdrop ariel shot of killzone 4)

He points out one sharp corner, and calls the entire game low poly compared to 360 open world games like skyrim, and erroneously calls a cache miss (very common in alpha/beta and easily fixed) pop up. Among other dubious 'breakdowns'.

Protip: pop in is a level of detail tool used to give better details up close, while saving resources at distances considered to far to see.

Foilage pop in happens far away, at the line where there is no foilage and foilage.

Not at the very front in a random chunk, where tons of foilage is already rendered.

He wasnt comparing ps4 to wii u, he was attempting to say THIS



(Good image, its pc unmodded, so even with the slider on low settings... Its STILL superior to skyrim 360, and even all the way on high, heavily inferior to X).

is superior or equivilant.
to THIS.



Just looking at the land formation being stood upon alone is enough to know you really shouldnt be using this guys breakdown for your argument.

All its doing is spreading cracks that can be exploited by dubious arguments that would otherwise have no foothold.

Edited by 3Dude, 24 February 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[tboss]

was wondering if the killzone was ingame or not. cutsences usualy have better grahpics then the actual game. and both are in alpha/beta stages atm so the jump between those to games is like 1.2-1.3?

PS4 is better by a small margin, that makes the most sence. PS4 demo relied almost completly on CGI and some games, the games were about even with wiiU games in development, but better than the PS/360 ports or games running on those engines.

http://www.neogaf.co...5&postcount=836

^^ that argument i found partialy funny. something about low polygons, then he pointed at a intersect between 3 polygons(1 water, 2 land), which is directly low poly rate.

he also points to folige, when other games on 360/PS3 usualy have next to no folige on large openworlds, just bushes and flat ground. wiiU alot of grass.

+ the game looks better than PS/360 in alpha stages, and looks on par with PS4 ACTUAL GAMEPLAY FOOTAGE also in alpha stages.

[Alex Atkin UK]

One thing I will say, I take anything by Quantic Dream with a grain of salt.

I never understood why people raved about Heavy Rain. It was a VERY pretty game, but there was barely any game in there so no wonder they could push the graphics so hard. It was ALL scripted, no AI, basically nothing that would tax the system at all apart from the graphics. It was more like a graphical technical demo with a few mundane button presses thrown in for good measure. I didn't even rate the story. I mean seriously, we are supposed to feel sorry for a guy because his kid got run over when he made no attempt to keep the little pony doodoo under control? Its quite probably the most boring game I have played in a long time, and everyone who saw me play it commented the same thing.

All comments about the Wii U pushing graphics we wouldn't expect for its power, I agree. But my point is still valid, the fact it has 1/4 the RAM of the other two consoles is going to be a HUGE stumbling block once developers start targeting them specifically.

If the leaked Xbox specs are true, its going to be hard enough to support both PS4 and Xbox due to vastly different specifications, so I can totally imagine then ignoring the Wii U to focus on those two. Unless of course either of those two fails to sell in a BIG way, but there are so many fan boys I find that hard to believe.

Its been said before, people just don't take Nintendo seriously. There are too many people who just don't think its cool to own Nintendo, they consider if they own a Playstation or Xbox as vital to their manhood, and the publishers are clearly aware of this.

Edited by Alex Atkin UK, 24 February 2013 - 01:22 PM.